Natural Rearing Border Collie Breeder?

[Maddy]

and that I have the resources to look after any issues naturally and holistically.

I'd be very interested to learn how you plan to naturally and holistically treat parvo.

As an aside, parasite infestations in puppies can lead to later health/behavioural issues. But then, if you've researched, you'd know that already ;)

Edited to add..

I feed my dogs prey model diet (one which includes green tripe and fresh wallaby/possum skins), vaccinate triennially and supplement diet as naturally as I can. Natural is great for some things but in other cases, it's neither safe nor appropriate, especially where it becomes an issue of welfare.

From what you've said, I believe a puppy in your care would be at great (and very unnecessary) risk. If I were a breeder, I would not sell a dog to you. I'm not saying to offend you, I just don't think your research has been especially thorough.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Hardy's Angel

[WreckitWhippet]

So what would you do if you were told not to vaccinate? You can titre test but if immunity is low you can't do anything about it without risking the dog. You might get away with a vaccination or it might kill your dog.

There's a big difference between deliberately choosing not to vaccinate a baby puppy and being told that vaccinating an older dog that has already recieved puppy vaccs not to by a vet.

If a vet was suggesting that vaccinating a pup would kill it, then you'd have to question if that puppy really should be kept alive.

[Nekhbet]

I think people also need to realise holistic 'vaccines' are not really vaccines at all, as they do not create an immune response. No immune response, no immune memory.

[The Spotted Devil]

And, for what it's worth, the average lifespan for a "naturally reared" feral cat is about 3 years.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Some very good comments here.

I hope the OP is going to enjoy her very dead dog. !!

[oakway]

All I have to say on the matter is this.

There is none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

[Greytmate]

So what would you do if you were told not to vaccinate? You can titre test but if immunity is low you can't do anything about it without risking the dog. You might get away with a vaccination or it might kill your dog.

If you choose to keep a sickly puppy that cannot be vaccinated. - Keep it at home and keep other dogs right away.

Immunisation works because of herd immunity. Because most people do the right thing. In areas where increasing numbers of people are being sucked in by pseudo-scientific anti-vacc claims, the deadly diseases are returning.

People are dying because of this disgusting anti-vacc attitude, not just dogs.

I have zero respect for people that choose to put other people and dogs at risk because of ridiculous rubbish they "researched" on the net. Having an "open mind" seems to leave some people prone to believing some outrageously stupid and dangerous crap.

Keeping my mind safely closed on this, I will listen to those who are experts and who provide evidence of their claims.

[Podengo]

So what would you do if you were told not to vaccinate? You can titre test but if immunity is low you can't do anything about it without risking the dog. You might get away with a vaccination or it might kill your dog.

If you choose to keep a sickly puppy that cannot be vaccinated. - Keep it at home and keep other dogs right away.

Immunisation works because of herd immunity. Because most people do the right thing. In areas where increasing numbers of people are being sucked in by pseudo-scientific anti-vacc claims, the deadly diseases are returning.

People are dying because of this disgusting anti-vacc attitude, not just dogs.

I have zero respect for people that choose to put other people and dogs at risk because of ridiculous rubbish they "researched" on the net. Having an "open mind" seems to leave some people prone to believing some outrageously stupid and dangerous crap.

Keeping my mind safely closed on this, I will listen to those who are experts and who provide evidence of their claims.

[Are You Serious Jo]

The arrogance of these extremists gets to me, they read something on the net and suddenly they have the answers to the universe. The solution to most things is balance, balance is natural in itself! How naive to think that you have found something that is so magical it can cure anything. Feeding raw provides no protection from parvo and distemper and I'm glad she has gone because I don't want to learn that her puppy has died. You just know she wouldn't keep it at home because she believes that her feeding regime protects from disease.

Stupid thing is she would have found the best advice here, how far you can go with natural without risking health. I agree with weasles, nature is a dreadful place, you are constantly fighting predators, conspecifics, parasites you name it. I'd hate to think she poisoned anyone here with her one sided opinions. It's one thing to respect that someone can do things differently and it's still ok, but all bets are off when it is dangerous and causes harm. Then that person needs to be told in no uncertain terms.

[espinay2]

And after a thread like this no wonder she doesn't stick around and learn.

But then attack has always been the common approach on this forum ...... as everyone can then be proven 'right' when someone doesnt stay

Makes me wonder if anyone even understands the basics of operant conditioning!!!

I recommend people go away and read Karen Pryor's 'Don't Shoot the Dog' - and if they have read it before, re-read it.

[jerojath]

And after a thread like this no wonder she doesn't stick around and learn.

But then attack has always been the common approach on this forum ...... as everyone can then be proven 'right' when someone doesnt stay

Makes me wonder if anyone even understands the basics of operant conditioning!!!

I recommend people go away and read Karen Pryor's 'Don't Shoot the Dog' - and if they have read it before, re-read it.

I don't think the OP was "attacked" at all!

I have been reading and waiting for this thread to become a train-wreck...... but it didn't.

I think it's a topic which really hits home for some people and their 'passionate views' may come across as a little excessive at times, but I think the OP asked a question and was given opinions WITH reason.

As has been said (Oakway perhaps???) the OP didn't like the answers she got so has picked up their bat and ball and gone home..... .

What would have been wrong with a "thanks for opionions and food for thought; I'll look into this further!"?????

[Are You Serious Jo]

I usually agree with you espinay, but this one was beyond help. She was not going to change her mind no matter what was said and what she was advocating was cruel. This is not just a difference of opinion but an extremist view that is wrong. There are so many of us that advocate for good diet and no yearly vaccinations, but she is condemning her puppy to die in a very painful way. Same as what people get who let their dogs run on the road.

[espinay2]

Yet she has been told to enjoy on her dead dog, that she doesn't care, told not to argue, called an extremist, told she is insulting, rude and should have the guts to give her real name and told she was nuts for thinking that building a healthy immune system with the help of diet has helped her minimise issues with parasites such as fleas, told she was killing her dog and called rude for daring to question that vets 'know it all' when if comes to keeping a dog healthy (which is a view often put forward on this forum anyway).

And while her third post does include a bit of a lash out I can see NOTHING in her other posts that do anything except express her current views, show respect that others have differeing opinions and request the same in return.

ANYONE would defend their current views in the face of that type of 'discussion'. Threaten someone and they put up walls. Much better to welcome them and teach even if you don't agree with their opinions.

[Are You Serious Jo]

But she will be killing her puppy if she doesn't vaccinate and takes it out. Do you really think she would have changed her mind on the vacc issue? You can usually tell pretty quickly if a noob is open to take in information and I'd bet my left knacker she wouldn't budge. Some people just aren't open to it, they want to believe what they read on the net so badly that they won't listen to anyone. Don't forget she didn't come here for advice but to find a breeder. The next nutter that won't vaccinate their puppy should get the same. It would be irresponsible to hear that and not tell it like it is. I can't remember reading one person here who thinks that dogs shouldn't have their first set of vacs, what you do after that is up to you.

[Greytmate]

And while her third post does include a bit of a lash out I can see NOTHING in her other posts that do anything except express her current views, show respect that others have differeing opinions and request the same in return.

She was not respectful at all. Her request was unreasonable, this is a public forum and people will be asked to back up the statements they make.

I think this person was defensive because they did not have the capacity to properly explain their reasoning, not because anyone here said anything that was out of line.

She was not open to being educated here, she was preaching her view and wanting others to help her obtain a dog.

One person gone, but hopefully hundreds of others who have stayed to read and have learned more about the necessity of vaccinations for dog welfare and where to learn more about the intelligent and scientifically informed debate that is taking place about how dogs should be vaccinated.

[Aphra]

Frankly, the whole anti-vaccine thing, animal and human, makes feel all stabby. I don't vaccinate my adult dogs every year, but if you've ever seen a puppy dying from parvo, despite every effort to save it, you might reconsider your stance for babies. We lost one last week and it's an awful experience to lose a sweet baby so young. Because of vaccination we've been able to eliminate smallpox and almost polio from the human world ... diseases that killed and caused extraordinary misery.

Maybe dying from internal bleeding and multiple organ failure is natural; but I'm pretty sure if your average baby puppy could choose, they'd elect for a vaccination.

[teekay]

Yet she has been told to enjoy on her dead dog, that she doesn't care, told not to argue, called an extremist, told she is insulting, rude and should have the guts to give her real name and told she was nuts for thinking that building a healthy immune system with the help of diet has helped her minimise issues with parasites such as fleas, told she was killing her dog and called rude for daring to question that vets 'know it all' when if comes to keeping a dog healthy (which is a view often put forward on this forum anyway).

And while her third post does include a bit of a lash out I can see NOTHING in her other posts that do anything except express her current views, show respect that others have differeing opinions and request the same in return.

ANYONE would defend their current views in the face of that type of 'discussion'. Threaten someone and they put up walls. Much better to welcome them and teach even if you don't agree with their opinions.

I think most, if not all, of the comments you refer to, came after she had had her hissy fit and left. Her second post made it VERY clear she was not open to any discussion on the vaccination issue as she had spent many many hours on the net researching. Never mind the many many YEARS of experience of some of the people on here, their opinion counted for nothing, her mind was made up.

[Rilla-My-Rilla]

I agree with Espinay.

Just because you offer someone advice, it does not mean they have to take it. That is what advice is. And just because someone chooses to do something different to you, it does not mean that they are wrong or right, or that you are wrong or right. Offering your opinion once is fine, but when the OP doesn't agree with you, there is no point getting upset about it. People have differing opinions.

Everyone needs to make the decision they are comfortable with. If someone feels unsafe vaccinating their animal, be it a dog, cat, cow or horse, then they need to be comfortable in their decision not to do it and be able to accept whatever may entail. Just as if someone is afraid or concerned that their animal will catch a disease and die if it is not vaccinated, then they will feel more comfortable with a vaccinated animal. If their pet dies of vaccinosis, then that is unfortunate. If the unvaccinated pet dies of parvo, then the same thing there.

It's all good and well to say that you have never experienced parvo, but perhaps you have never experienced vaccinosis or the side effects vaccines can cause, whether very severe or minor, underlying issues.

Each to their own, and some people in this thread would be less stressed if they realized that everyone needs to make their own choices and decisions. No one is necessarily right or wrong.

This post is not aimed at any user in particular, it is written in general

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'm pretty comfortable with my judgement that she is wrong. I'll also point out that what she wants to do is illegal as far as I know. If she decided she doesn't want to take something that's fine, she only hurts herself. But her actions affect another living being that has no choice. There's also the other dogs that will be exposed to any diseases she will spread around.

There are lots of things that society doesn't condone, try going to court and using it's my opinion as a defence, see how far it gets you. Some things are wrong.

[melzawelza]

I'm pretty comfortable with my judgement that she is wrong. I'll also point out that what she wants to do is illegal as far as I know. If she decided she doesn't want to take something that's fine, she only hurts herself. But her actions affect another living being that has no choice. There's also the other dogs that will be exposed to any diseases she will spread around.

There are lots of things that society doesn't condone, try going to court and using it's my opinion as a defence, see how far it gets you. Some things are wrong.

:thumbsup: