Pitbulls Bite Off Teenagers Ear In Savage Attack

[BlackJaq]

Yea, my OH once went to buy a BYB puppy. They were feeding this litter of 13 WHEAT BIX and cow's milk. That was it. They were weaned early because the bitch did not have enough milk. Little wonder if that is what they fed her, too!

[BlackJaq]

Luke GSP: ALL dogs need to be managed. They can all be dangerous. Statements like yours make people believe that one breed or another is safe and does NOT need to be managed correctly.

To illustrate my point some more, with a bitch on heat present, almost any unrestrained dog of almost any breed would have been capable of biting this victims leg, causing him to bend down and hold his leg. Almost any breed would then have been able to grasp him by the ear (pretty normal dog behaviour) and chances are when he stood up the ear would have come off if the dog continued to hold on.

It did not take a bully to do this kind of damage. A GSP, beagle, dachshund or wolfhound could have done the same damage. His leg injures did not look horrific from what I saw in the videos. Going for the ear, in my opinion, seems to demonstrate that the dogs may not have been intent on causing him serious damage. Had they gone for the neck or face this whole story could have ended very differently.

Edited November 1, 2012 by BlackJaq

[dancinbcs]

ETA: If this was, indeed a sexually induced incident then this is in fact EXACTLY what dogs do. I don't know why people argue that this is not typical of dogs. It is. A bitch on heat can and will induce aggression in almost any dog, even dogs of the same sex! If that makes them monsters then 99% of entire dogs are monsters. It is up to their humans to manage this part of their nature!

I have to totally disagree with this statement. Entire male dogs are shown week in week out, all around the country, along side each other and bitches in season and there is very rarely any problem with aggression despite large numbers of dogs being confined to a small area. If what you said was true, every dogshow would be one big dogfight.

If all of those dogs were off leash and left to their own devices with a bitch on heat present, you don't believe those dogs would begin to fight amongst each other? What do you believe the reaction would be? Peaceful interaction?

Are the handlers not managing any potential aggression by handling their dog appropriately?

ETA: I have personally been to dog shows where fights have broken out between entires when they were too close to each other and owners had to separate their dogs. Are you saying this never happens and is quite out of the ordinary?

There are always lots of in season bitches at shows and most dogs, while interested in the bitches, ignore the the other dogs. Dog fights have happened at shows but they are extremely rare and one of the main offending breeds is Amstaffs, especially when they were first introduced. Since then the breeders do seem to have done a lot of work in regard to breeding for better temperament. Many of the smaller terrier breeds would also fight but among the other breeds the only one that comes to mind as having multiple fights over the years are Akitas. There are several breeds that might threaten or even occasionally grab another dog that gets too close at times but if the other dog submits, there is no fight or damage which is normal canine behaviour.

BTW, I was in no way comparing Greyhounds and Pitbulls, just the scheme that exists to allow Greys to go without muzzles. Surely a similar scheme for Pitbulls and crosses would be better than the Victorian solution of just requiring them all to be pts?

I make no apologies for my dislike of Pitbulls and their crosses, as my several interactions with them have all been negative and despite seeing many breeds over many years they are the only breed I have have never encountered a friendly and non dog aggressive one.

[BlackJaq]

Were the dogs you speak of papered APBT? If they were not, how can you be sure of the breed when experts everywhere admit that they cannot reliably identify breeds by visual inspection?

Edited November 1, 2012 by BlackJaq

[Luke GSP]

Luke GSP: ALL dogs need to be managed. They can all be dangerous. Statements like yours make people believe that one breed or another is safe and does NOT need to be managed correctly.

No, to be clear NO dog is safe, NO DOG is incapable of being dangerous, but it is as obvious as the nose on a dogs face that certain breeds, due to their size, strength or amplified traits pose a higher chance of serious injury if they become aggressive than others.

As I said about snakes, I would expect someone to explain to a potential herper that all snakes have a risk associated with them but a death adder has a higher potential of serious harm than an average diamond python. It is not about propensity it is about potential/likely outcome in the event of a mistake

Toilets cause more injuries each year than loaded guns, but I am pretty sure you would highlight the potential of a 357 magnum to a potential buyer before you would warn someone entering your toilet!

[melzawelza]

Bingo. Plus, bitches in heat usually aren't present at shows anyway.

yes they are. Lots of them. I've shown my bitch in season and I'm not the lone ranger.

My bad. I have had a few people tell me now it is bad form to bring a bitch in heat to a show but maybe that was their specific breed or they were mistaken.

I have never in my life seen a Pitbull that was 40 or 50kgs, if it was, it would be the most obese dog I've ever seen and wouldn't be able to do much more than wobble at someone.

It would be the same weight as a Rhodesian Ridgeback

Don't shoot the messenger, the standard says 25-35kg, I've never seen an obese show dog hence if as a standard it can weigh 35kg are you honestly saying that it couldn't waeigh 40-50 if allowed to become overweight much like the majority of pet dogs (sadly) or are we saying that these irresponsible, bogan nair do well owners may not train or manage their dogs in any other way but their weight! :-)

Sorry but where are you getting this information from!? Every single APBT I've seen states:

"Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds."

So that's males 15-27kg, females 13-22. Have you ever met an APBT? Your GSP would be larger than 99% of them.

Source

ETA: If this was, indeed a sexually induced incident then this is in fact EXACTLY what dogs do. I don't know why people argue that this is not typical of dogs. It is. A bitch on heat can and will induce aggression in almost any dog, even dogs of the same sex! If that makes them monsters then 99% of entire dogs are monsters. It is up to their humans to manage this part of their nature!

I have to totally disagree with this statement. Entire male dogs are shown week in week out, all around the country, along side each other and bitches in season and there is very rarely any problem with aggression despite large numbers of dogs being confined to a small area. If what you said was true, every dogshow would be one big dogfight.

If all of those dogs were off leash and left to their own devices with a bitch on heat present, you don't believe those dogs would begin to fight amongst each other? What do you believe the reaction would be? Peaceful interaction?

Are the handlers not managing any potential aggression by handling their dog appropriately?

ETA: I have personally been to dog shows where fights have broken out between entires when they were too close to each other and owners had to separate their dogs. Are you saying this never happens and is quite out of the ordinary?

There are always lots of in season bitches at shows and most dogs, while interested in the bitches, ignore the the other dogs. Dog fights have happened at shows but they are extremely rare and one of the main offending breeds is Amstaffs, especially when they were first introduced. Since then the breeders do seem to have done a lot of work in regard to breeding for better temperament. Many of the smaller terrier breeds would also fight but among the other breeds the only one that comes to mind as having multiple fights over the years are Akitas. There are several breeds that might threaten or even occasionally grab another dog that gets too close at times but if the other dog submits, there is no fight or damage which is normal canine behaviour.

BTW, I was in no way comparing Greyhounds and Pitbulls, just the scheme that exists to allow Greys to go without muzzles. Surely a similar scheme for Pitbulls and crosses would be better than the Victorian solution of just requiring them all to be pts?

I make no apologies for my dislike of Pitbulls and their crosses, as my several interactions with them have all been negative and despite seeing many breeds over many years they are the only breed I have have never encountered a friendly and non dog aggressive one.

You have not acknowledged that all dogs at shows are LEASHED and under control of their owners, something which these dogs were not. You can't compare the two situations.

[BlackJaq]

Anyways, I need to go do some chores but I hope the BSL defenders and bully haters read some of the links and information supplied in this thread (once again.. there are plenty of educational threads on DOL) and I don't think that any true dog lover could support BSL in good conscience. Almost everybody will meet a dog/dogs of a certain look or breed at some stage and find them less than friendly or even outright dangerous. That doesn't mean that all dogs that look similar should be killed or even targeted.

As I said, I would welcome it if all dogs and owners were managed/monitored, rather than just certain individuals.

[dancinbcs]

Were the dogs you speak of papered APBT?

How can they be papered when they are not a recognised breed unless they are registered as Amstaffs. All appeared the same size and shape as the Amstaffs at shows except they were all red/white with red noses which is not an Amstaff colour. All the same as the many that populated my neighbourhood for many years, including the one that bailed me up just last year then went for, knocked over and injured an elderly lady walking her dog. In this case she was lucky as two good samaritans jumped straight on the dog as it got her to the ground and one shoved her walking stick in it's mouth as it tried to get to her head. Unfortunately the idiot owner turned up and took the dog while the lady was being treated in an ambulance and we were all still waiting for the police.

[Luke GSP]

Luke GSP: ALL dogs need to be managed. They can all be dangerous. Statements like yours make people believe that one breed or another is safe and does NOT need to be managed correctly.

To illustrate my point some more, with a bitch on heat present, almost any unrestrained dog of almost any breed would have been capable of biting this victims leg, causing him to bend down and hold his leg. Almost any breed would then have been able to grasp him by the ear (pretty normal dog behaviour) and chances are when he stood up the ear would have come off if the dog continued to hold on.

It did not take a bully to do this kind of damage. A GSP, beagle, dachshund or wolfhound could have done the same damage. His leg injures did not look horrific from what I saw in the videos. Going for the ear, in my opinion, seems to demonstrate that the dogs may not have been intent on causing him serious damage. Had they gone for the neck or face this whole story could have ended very differently.

Last time I played with my Mr potato head the ear was in fairly close proximity to both the neck an face!

It amazes me how bull supporters need absolute 100% info papered or not

Apbt, amstaff, bull cross

BYB?

And yet will try and down play the incident with statements like, if it "Going for the ear, in my opinion, seems to demonstrate that the dogs may not have been intent on causing him serious damage. Had they gone for the neck or face this whole story could have ended very differently." Maybe they did go for the face or neck but the boy fortunately turned his head enough that they only got to rip his ear off!.

Again , another example of choosing the bits that might be able to be displayed as a positive rather than even considering that there might actually be a very real and actual negative.

[Luke GSP]

Bingo. Plus, bitches in heat usually aren't present at shows anyway.

yes they are. Lots of them. I've shown my bitch in season and I'm not the lone ranger.

My bad. I have had a few people tell me now it is bad form to bring a bitch in heat to a show but maybe that was their specific breed or they were mistaken.

I have never in my life seen a Pitbull that was 40 or 50kgs, if it was, it would be the most obese dog I've ever seen and wouldn't be able to do much more than wobble at someone.

It would be the same weight as a Rhodesian Ridgeback

Don't shoot the messenger, the standard says 25-35kg, I've never seen an obese show dog hence if as a standard it can weigh 35kg are you honestly saying that it couldn't waeigh 40-50 if allowed to become overweight much like the majority of pet dogs (sadly) or are we saying that these irresponsible, bogan nair do well owners may not train or manage their dogs in any other way but their weight! :-)

Sorry but where are you getting this information from!? Every single APBT I've seen states:

"Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds."

So that's males 15-27kg, females 13-22. Have you ever met an APBT? Your GSP would be larger than 99% of them.

Source

ETA: If this was, indeed a sexually induced incident then this is in fact EXACTLY what dogs do. I don't know why people argue that this is not typical of dogs. It is. A bitch on heat can and will induce aggression in almost any dog, even dogs of the same sex! If that makes them monsters then 99% of entire dogs are monsters. It is up to their humans to manage this part of their nature!

I have to totally disagree with this statement. Entire male dogs are shown week in week out, all around the country, along side each other and bitches in season and there is very rarely any problem with aggression despite large numbers of dogs being confined to a small area. If what you said was true, every dogshow would be one big dogfight.

If all of those dogs were off leash and left to their own devices with a bitch on heat present, you don't believe those dogs would begin to fight amongst each other? What do you believe the reaction would be? Peaceful interaction?

Are the handlers not managing any potential aggression by handling their dog appropriately?

ETA: I have personally been to dog shows where fights have broken out between entires when they were too close to each other and owners had to separate their dogs. Are you saying this never happens and is quite out of the ordinary?

There are always lots of in season bitches at shows and most dogs, while interested in the bitches, ignore the the other dogs. Dog fights have happened at shows but they are extremely rare and one of the main offending breeds is Amstaffs, especially when they were first introduced. Since then the breeders do seem to have done a lot of work in regard to breeding for better temperament. Many of the smaller terrier breeds would also fight but among the other breeds the only one that comes to mind as having multiple fights over the years are Akitas. There are several breeds that might threaten or even occasionally grab another dog that gets too close at times but if the other dog submits, there is no fight or damage which is normal canine behaviour.

BTW, I was in no way comparing Greyhounds and Pitbulls, just the scheme that exists to allow Greys to go without muzzles. Surely a similar scheme for Pitbulls and crosses would be better than the Victorian solution of just requiring them all to be pts?

I make no apologies for my dislike of Pitbulls and their crosses, as my several interactions with them have all been negative and despite seeing many breeds over many years they are the only breed I have have never encountered a friendly and non dog aggressive one.

You have not acknowledged that all dogs at shows are LEASHED and under control of their owners, something which these dogs were not. You can't compare the two situations.

Here, it über th

A. MUZZLE: Square at the base of the face and slightly wedged to nose.

B. STOP: The stop should be deep, make a crevasse leading to the occiput across the forehead.

C. FOREHEAD: Forehead to be free of wrinkles and wedge shaped.

D. OCCIPUT: The muscle between the ears should form a V shape between the ear and middle of the head leading down to the back of the neck.

E. SKULL: Slightly rounded. The widest point of the head should be between the eye and the ear

F. EARS: Cropped or uncropped, free of wrinkles, and set high on head.

G. NECK: Tapering from shoulder to head. Proportionate to dog.

H. WITHERS: Muscular and higher than the topline but no higher than the rump.

I. TOPLINE & BACK: Sloping downward from withers to rump. Distance between withers and rump should be equal to the distance between point of shoulder and foot.

J. RUMP: Broad hips with muscular tone and slight arch from topline to tail.

K. TAIL SET: Base of tail should fit the shape of the slope from topline to tail. Tail set high in the back is undesirable.

L. TAIL: Tail should be no longer than the hock of the back legs, thick at the base and tapering to the end. Medium in length as compared to the rest of the body. (Not held over back)

M. REAR PASTERN AND POINT OF HOCK: Rear stifle should be perpendicular to ground in stacked position and approximately a 45-degree angle from back of leg to stifle over the hock.

N. UPPER THIGH: muscular and long as compared to rear pastern.

O. ABDOMEN: Showing definition and slight tuck above the rib cage.

P. RIB CAGE: Ribs well sprung, showing definition and muscularity.

Q. STIFLE & ELBOWS: Stifle should be perpendicular to ground in stacked position. Elbows line up directly under shoulders. No turning in or out from rib cage.

R. FEET: Feet proportionate to legs. Toes medium in length and close to one another.

S. CHEST: Deep chest with moderate width. Depth of chest should be longer than width.

T. POINT OF SHOULDER: Wide, sloping toward elbow and muscular.

U. JAWS: Well pronounced, muscular, and widest point of head.

V. FLEWS: Tight and wrinkle free.

TEETH: Should be forward scissors bite, teeth meshing closely together to make a tight bite. (Front teeth tightly in front of back teeth is a forward scissors bite.) Fault: Level bite, under bite.

EYES: Any color other than glass and both the same color (watch eye). Fault: Bulging eyes, walleye or cross-eye.

NOSE: Any color. Fault: Butterfly nose (flares out).

COAT: Glossy, short, and stiff.

COLOR: Any

WEIGHT: 35 to 55 pounds for females and 45 to 75 for males.

HEIGHT: 16 to 20 inches for females and 18 to 24 inches for males.

MOVEMENT: Single or double tracking, but must do the same front and back legs. Back remains level during travel. Ground covering seems effortless.

FAULTS: Legs not moving on same plane, legs over reaching, legs crossing. Rolling, pacing, crabbing, pounding, paddling and side winding.

DISQUALIFICATION: Deaf, blind, lame, bobbed tail, monocryptoid (one testicle), undershot, overshot, rye mouth, extremely shy, extremely aggressive, long coat, bulging eyes, watch eye, glass eye, wall eye, cross eye, color not matching, spayed, or neutered.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Luke GSP

[melzawelza]

Here, it über th

A. MUZZLE: Square at the base of the face and slightly wedged to nose.

B. STOP: The stop should be deep, make a crevasse leading to the occiput across the forehead.

C. FOREHEAD: Forehead to be free of wrinkles and wedge shaped.

D. OCCIPUT: The muscle between the ears should form a V shape between the ear and middle of the head leading down to the back of the neck.

E. SKULL: Slightly rounded. The widest point of the head should be between the eye and the ear

F. EARS: Cropped or uncropped, free of wrinkles, and set high on head.

G. NECK: Tapering from shoulder to head. Proportionate to dog.

H. WITHERS: Muscular and higher than the topline but no higher than the rump.

I. TOPLINE & BACK: Sloping downward from withers to rump. Distance between withers and rump should be equal to the distance between point of shoulder and foot.

J. RUMP: Broad hips with muscular tone and slight arch from topline to tail.

K. TAIL SET: Base of tail should fit the shape of the slope from topline to tail. Tail set high in the back is undesirable.

L. TAIL: Tail should be no longer than the hock of the back legs, thick at the base and tapering to the end. Medium in length as compared to the rest of the body. (Not held over back)

M. REAR PASTERN AND POINT OF HOCK: Rear stifle should be perpendicular to ground in stacked position and approximately a 45-degree angle from back of leg to stifle over the hock.

N. UPPER THIGH: muscular and long as compared to rear pastern.

O. ABDOMEN: Showing definition and slight tuck above the rib cage.

P. RIB CAGE: Ribs well sprung, showing definition and muscularity.

Q. STIFLE & ELBOWS: Stifle should be perpendicular to ground in stacked position. Elbows line up directly under shoulders. No turning in or out from rib cage.

R. FEET: Feet proportionate to legs. Toes medium in length and close to one another.

S. CHEST: Deep chest with moderate width. Depth of chest should be longer than width.

T. POINT OF SHOULDER: Wide, sloping toward elbow and muscular.

U. JAWS: Well pronounced, muscular, and widest point of head.

V. FLEWS: Tight and wrinkle free.

TEETH: Should be forward scissors bite, teeth meshing closely together to make a tight bite. (Front teeth tightly in front of back teeth is a forward scissors bite.) Fault: Level bite, under bite.

EYES: Any color other than glass and both the same color (watch eye). Fault: Bulging eyes, walleye or cross-eye.

NOSE: Any color. Fault: Butterfly nose (flares out).

COAT: Glossy, short, and stiff.

COLOR: Any

WEIGHT: 35 to 55 pounds for females and 45 to 75 for males.

HEIGHT: 16 to 20 inches for females and 18 to 24 inches for males.

MOVEMENT: Single or double tracking, but must do the same front and back legs. Back remains level during travel. Ground covering seems effortless.

FAULTS: Legs not moving on same plane, legs over reaching, legs crossing. Rolling, pacing, crabbing, pounding, paddling and side winding.

DISQUALIFICATION: Deaf, blind, lame, bobbed tail, monocryptoid (one testicle), undershot, overshot, rye mouth, extremely shy, extremely aggressive, long coat, bulging eyes, watch eye, glass eye, wall eye, cross eye, color not matching, spayed, or neutered.

Where is your reference thanks? What registry has stated this?

ETA: Wherever it's from, it's wrong. United Kennel Club standard link here:

UKB APBT standard

UKC dogs are typically bigger, more muscular and have more weight on them than ADBA registered dogs, so they are actually on the BIGGER end of the APBT scale. You have clearly never met an APBT in your life. 50kg... how ridiculous.

Edited November 1, 2012 by melzawelza

[asal]

there are three breeds of kelpies in australia, the ANKC registered which can be shown at ANKC shows, there's the working kelpies registered with I forget their initials. then theres the bulk of kelpies living their lives as pets or working dogs and never registered with either, I am pretty sure the Cudglebar kelpies have never had a prefix in front of their name but work?

amazing dogs, inituative too. one sent to bring in a filly for wound dressing, was in a paddock alone, trouble was the mob was on the other side of the fence she flatly refused to move away from the mob. The kelpie looked to the boss for instructions, meanwhile boss was laughing too hard at the predicament.

So , kelpie gave boss a disgusted look , jumped the fence, drove the mob to the yards with the filly following on the other side of the fence, soon as she entered the yard, kelpie rejumped the fence. Blocked the gate and barked at boss to get his sorry butt over and shut the gate.

What has this to do with Pit Bull and an AmStaff?

One has papers.... one doesn't.

Do you own checking, there are dogs in USA described as dual registered Pit Bull and AmStaff. Like what the?

http://www.dogforum.com.au/general-dog-forum/639-amstaff-v-pitbull-3.html

OK , the photo is of an APBT.

Nice isn't he

The American Staffordshire is the registered version of the APBT.

That is a simple version ( sorry guys-been a hectic night)

It is not a recognised breed in Australia Natty you are correct,it is however a recognised,registered breed with the UKC .It is one of the things brought to many debates when concerning BSL and those especially pertaining to the ID'ng of a said Restricted Breed.

In other parts ofthe world a dog can actually be dual registered,APBT/Amstaff.

An APBT is an unpapered Amstaff.

Sorry Occy,probably more brain splat on the way

It is not a case though of simple an APBT being a BYB Amstaff.

Without the Pi Bull , there would be no Amstaff.

The Amstaff was created from a select group of APBT. No other blood has ever been introduced. In fact the Stud Books reopened in the 70's to allow a fresh infusion of APBT blood into the Amstaff , thus in effect making the Amstaff an even younger 'breed' .

This is a highly condensed version of things sory,as I said ,tis been one of those nights and its getting late.

Hopefully the thread will not implode before I can come back tomorow

Kennel Assistant

Blue Mountains Pet Resort

https://www.facebook.com/OzBullRescue

http://sgallo4.tripod.com/id39.html

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html

Edited November 4, 2012 by asal

[asal]

This breeder really is honest as to the possiblities in any pup.

Always Faithful Amstaffs are dual-registered with the American Kennel Club and the United Kennel Club. The AKC refers to this breed as the American Staffordshire Terrier (Amstaff) while the UKC still recognizes the original name of American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT). Before you seriously consider adding an Amstaff / APBT to your life, take time - a lot of time - to understand what this breed is and what it is not. The following excerpts are taken from Joe Stahlkuppe's The American Pit Bull Terrier Handbook which refers to this breed entirely as the APBT. In understanding the complete APBT, a potential owner should take into account all facets of sharing one's life with a pet of complexity.

Know The APBT

Understanding the APBT requires acceptance of the total package. The strength and power cannot be seen clearly without acknowledging the personality and charm. The toughness of the breed cannot be fully reckoned with without assessing the gentleness of the breed. The APBT's harshly real background should not be a focal point without considering the funny, clownish antics of the dog. Unless you know what owning an APBT truly involves, you are setting yourself (and an innocent dog) up for what could be a failure of monumental proportions. Owning an APBT can be a wonderful experience, but never be deluded that this is just another dog.

Are APBTs and Amstaffs the Same Breed?

The AKC allowed APBTs to be registered as Amstaffs for a number of years until the studbook was closed. This meant that from the closing of the studbook on, the AKC would register only dogs whose parents were registered as American Staffordshire Terriers. Since that time, the Amstaff has gradually changed from what it had been as a renamed American Pit Bull Terrier. It is correct to state, in general terms, that the AKC Amstaff and the APBT of the UKC and ADBA is now not the same breed. They look quite similar, but there have been changes in the Amstaff after 65 years of breeding purely for conformation.

The differences between the Amstaff and the APBT would be even greater if there had not been dual registration. Some of the APBT breeders who opted for their dogs' inclusion in the American Kennel Club as American Staffordshire Terriers, kept their dogs registered in the United Kennel Club as APBTs. There are still some dual-registered dogs today. Several years ago, the top APBT of the United Kennel Club was also the top American Staffordshire Terrier of the American Kennel Club! All claims and dramatic protestations to the contrary, in some cases, the Amstaff and the APBT are the same breed.

Aggressiveness Toward Other Dogs

Many breeds of dogs are animal-aggressive to one degree or another. The popular Jack Russell Terrier, often animal-aggressive, as other members of the terrier group usually are, was originally bred to do battle with rats, badgers, foxes, and other animals. Jack Russells were bred to help deplete the huge number of rats in the days before other reliable extermination processes. To expect the average JRT not to go after a stray cat or trespassing dog is to be unrealistic, but that is not to say that dogs can't be trained and socialized to ignore other animals. This is possible with the Jack Russell and it is possible with the APBT. Dogs that grow up with other animals generally reach an accommodation of their own.

It is important to recognize that APBTs, as a fighting breed, don't respond to challenges in the same way that nonfighting breeds do. Most dogs are merely trying to establish dominance over their opponent. When that opponent gives in and strikes classical submission positions, cowering or rolling over onto its back, most dominant dogs are satisfied and the fight stops.

When game-bred dogs confront each other, neither of them will submit to the other. Gameness requires that they never give up. When a fight begins between two game dogs, whether either has never been in a pit before or not, the fight will not stop unless death or human beings stop it. Gameness brings a whole new dimension to a dogfight. No bristling and dominance displays here. There is very little time for a human to intervene after the aggressiveness starts. This is no contest to see who will be top dog, leader of the pack. This fight is more serious with life or death hanging in the balance.

Some game-bred dog breeders have dogs that are perfectly safe around other dogs when out and away from the yard. One breeder, the owner of ten dogs, stated, "I have one dog that I can walk on the streets or in parks and he won't be aggressive unless another dog acts in a threatening manner." This same breeder has nine other dogs that he doesn't feel comfortable in taking out to places where they may encounter other dogs.

Edited November 1, 2012 by asal

[megan_]

Anyways, I need to go do some chores but I hope the BSL defenders and bully haters read some of the links and information supplied in this thread (once again.. there are plenty of educational threads on DOL) and I don't think that any true dog lover could support BSL in good conscience. Almost everybody will meet a dog/dogs of a certain look or breed at some stage and find them less than friendly or even outright dangerous. That doesn't mean that all dogs that look similar should be killed or even targeted.

As I said, I would welcome it if all dogs and owners were managed/monitored, rather than just certain individuals.

Just a question: Would you support the "softening of laws" so that certain dogs could only be owned by people who had passed some sort of assessment and the dog had a (reliable) temp test? similar to what happens in NSW with regards to the temp test.

The reason I ask is that I can't see BSL being overturned any time soon, especially in Vic (where I live). I would prefer a system that didn't kill all dogs of a certain look. It would be better if dogs of a certain power/weight were temp tested and owners would need to prove that they had the resources to care for them. Something similar to the greyhound scheme would suffice. I would like to see a "responsible owner" system apply for all dogs, but I can't see it flying because of the cost/political backlash.

At least this way, dogs and owners have an out.

FWIW, I don't support BSL in its current form, but I'm glad that some breeds are banned from importation (which is different to killing dogs that are already here that haven't committed any offences). If all laws regarding breed were suddenly lifted and anyone could breed and sell any dog they wanted I don't see an improvement happening. When we talk about BSL the focus is always on pitbulls, but it applies to greyhounds and Argentinian fighting dogs etc too.

[ari.g]

Were the dogs you speak of papered APBT?

How can they be papered when they are not a recognised breed unless they are registered as Amstaffs. All appeared the same size and shape as the Amstaffs at shows except they were all red/white with red noses which is not an Amstaff colour. All the same as the many that populated my neighbourhood for many years, including the one that bailed me up just last year then went for, knocked over and injured an elderly lady walking her dog. In this case she was lucky as two good samaritans jumped straight on the dog as it got her to the ground and one shoved her walking stick in it's mouth as it tried to get to her head. Unfortunately the idiot owner turned up and took the dog while the lady was being treated in an ambulance and we were all still waiting for the police.

They may be papered and registered as APBT's on the American Registries. All my brothers APBT's were papered when he use to show them :)

[Rebanne]

[quote name='melzawelza' timestamp='1351733368' post='6005769'

My bad. I have had a few people tell me now it is bad form to bring a bitch in heat to a show but maybe that was their specific breed or they were mistaken.

You have not acknowledged that all dogs at shows are LEASHED and under control of their owners, something which these dogs were not. You can't compare the two situations.

Bitches in season at shows is a whole other arguement :laugh:

Dogs at shows are not always on leash, they can and do get away from their owners. And can cause damage, the owner that is in my case when a whippet slipped it's lead and the large male owner chased it. Whippet went under my young greyhound bitch, owner dived to try and catch the dog and landed on my bitch! Male owner picked himself up off my bitch and away he went chasing his dog and never came back to apologise. Meanwhile I am left with a traumatised girl, who some 5 years on can still get spooked while waiting around to go into the ring. Slightly coloured my opinion of whippet owners I tell you! Same as my opinion of some breeds of dogs has been coloured by adverse events.

[mantis]

I have never in my life seen a Pitbull that was 40 or 50kgs, if it was, it would be the most obese dog I've ever seen and wouldn't be able to do much more than wobble at someone.

My Neo Mastiff X APBT was 45kg, but he was about 5kg overweight in his elderly years. There is no way a purebred APBT could weigh 50kg. There are some ignorant people posting in this thread.

[mixeduppup]

It could work like the one for greyhounds who pass the test to be allowed in public without a muzzle and allow those that claim their Pitbull is no threat to anyone or any other animal to prove it.

umm greyhounds are nothing like a bull breed and Australia is one of only 2 countries in the whole world that require greyhounds to be muzzled. Greyhounds who are not cat safe can pass.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there tests now for greys and green collared ones (I think it's green) can be walked without a muzzle?

yes there are but as I said non cat safe dogs can and do pass. A greyhound is nothing like a bull breed in temperament. Countries world wide have problems with "pitbulls" not with greyhounds, even though greyhounds have got loose and killed other dogs in the past. Greyhounds, in general, get on fine with other dogs because they have always had to, either in history when they hunted as part of a pack, or more recently on the race track. Fighters are of no use to anyone and usually destroyed. They are not bred from.

I suppose that's fair enough with the cats, a lot of dogs wouldn't be cat safe. As long as they are on leash which all dogs should be in public anyway I don't see the issue with passing non-catsafe greys. I'm glad the testing exists now for some greys to get a chance. Off track for a second. Do show greys fall under the same legislation and need to wear muzzles as well? I may have asked this before but can't remember.

[Aidan3]

Difficult to ignore the fact that pitbulls are different and have high potential to do serious damage due to both conformation and temperament, statistically speaking. All the same, this does not refute the evidence that BSL does not work.

What I really like to see, regardless of breed, are owners who are realistic about what safe, responsible dog ownership means. Along with that is recognition that all the socialisation, training, and behaviour modification in the world won't make some dogs fundamentally safe if not supervised or contained appropriately.

Dog safety is a complex issue. However we do know that imposing breed restrictions does little to improve public safety outcomes and may harm public safety by fueling flawed representations of dogs based on breed alone, and tying up resources that could be used to genuinely improve public safety.

[mantis]

Were the dogs you speak of papered APBT?

How can they be papered when they are not a recognised breed unless they are registered as Amstaffs. All appeared the same size and shape as the Amstaffs at shows except they were all red/white with red noses which is not an Amstaff colour. All the same as the many that populated my neighbourhood for many years, including the one that bailed me up just last year then went for, knocked over and injured an elderly lady walking her dog. In this case she was lucky as two good samaritans jumped straight on the dog as it got her to the ground and one shoved her walking stick in it's mouth as it tried to get to her head. Unfortunately the idiot owner turned up and took the dog while the lady was being treated in an ambulance and we were all still waiting for the police.

And another one goes on the ignore list.