People's Prejudice Against Dog Breeders.

[asal]

Rather glad, THOSE threads have been axed.

But the sentiments expressed has had me thinking for days especially some of the out of this world expectations voiced by some.

If I understand correctly many of the main points brought up, to be ethical.

1)The best for the breed being priority number one.

2)All health testing possible being done.

3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold.

4)Do not breed to sell.

5) Breed only for your own next generation.

6)Do not keep in Kennels or they cannot be properly socialised.

7)Do raise your pups in the home and keep your dogs in the home.

There were a lot of other stuff but I didnt write them down, will add later as and if I remember.

Now the problems with just this short list is for starters

1)The best for the breed being priority number one.

Who is going to decide WHAT is best for the breed?

Show ribbons, Champion Certificates?

Self Whelping, Maternal instinct's? so the bitch will and actually can, deliver and raise her own pups without a vet always on standby?

Dont assume the two go together. I know quite a few Champion lines that cannot self whelp or feed their own pups.

So is the one who decides to select for a self procrreating line with showability second on the list, unethical?

I know when I was newbie, the breeder I bought my first pup from was a professional breeder, she sold on average 250 puppies in any given year. She didnt want to keep her vet in the manner to which she would like to be accostumed herself. The place was, well to me anyway. AMAZING, as you entered the yard there was this HUGE shed, at second look it was 2/3rds wire, sides, and roof. Over the wire was mosquito mesh, the wire again. Why? Because no dog inside that area had to worry about ever seeing a mozzie. the other 1/3 rd was a fully enclosed area with a long hallway down the centre. On your left was the runs from memory 16 of them. think they were about 25 to 30 foot long and 4 or 5 feet wide. Floor was concrete and hosed up to 3 times a day from what I saw when I was there anyway.

The part of the runs that was under cover of the shed housed the individual kennels the dogs slept in. From 2 to 4 kennels to each run. There were no gates just a step over wall.(we are talking chihuahua's here.) Think I counted 120 adults including the males. Never forget Elfreda Teddy Bear.....stunning.

On the other side of the hall were three doors, one to the office with all records, desk phone etc. The next door was the whelping runs. They were individual pens up off the floor on legs sort of like a large rabbit or guinea pig cage with lift lids so you didnt have to bend down to clean them. at the end was the closed off box with its own seperate lid and a small door into the run area, for entering and leaving for the mum and a heater under the whelping box floor, so no matter where the puppies rolled they were warm.

The other door was the food prepation area.

She sold her puppies on Main Register if you wanted to show. Even if you were a complete newbie like me.

After attending my first show, I quickly learned she was despised by many who considered her a 'puppy farmer'. Yet my puppy farmer pup won many classes anway. As did my brothers pride and joy. It also didnt take me long to realise she bred not only as a business, she strived to make sure her dogs self whelped and still good looking dogs. But that did mean not selecting for the ultra big heads and small hips or small size,(remember until the Pedigree Dogs Exposed doco, the standard still had in it "the more dimunitive preferred") the first thing she showed me was how to feel for a wide pelvic bones so there was room for the pup to pass. Same rule for slecting any female of any species I soon discovered when I bought my first stud shorthorn.

From what I'm reading in others posts this lady would be the last person you should buy your puppy from.

2)All health testing possible being done.

In the 1960's there was no DNA tests available. How breeders of all classes of livestock DNA tested their stock, was to In or Line breed, it was not just done to strengthen a good animals genetic influence. It also disclosed in very short order in the calves, foals, pups. If there was any deletrius genes present and would either end or strengthen that line.

Now of course there are quite a lot of DNA tests available before any are born so in one way it is a marvelous shortcut to eliminating a defect carrier before it can even be bred from.

The problem being, there are still thousands of defects still waiting for their tests to be found.

None of which tests are free.

The scans and Xrays also need to be paid for. The total, can and does run into thousands...........of dollars as in $$$$

Which of course then brings us to

3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold.

Why ?

Considering I doubt there is not a single person reading this that doesnt expect their job to pay what they are worth on an hourly rate. Even Gina Rhinehard considers her time is worth money. Being the richest woman in Australia, or is it the World,

doesnt preclude her or any person, whether self employed or working for a boss do so for nothing

Why does the person who bred your new puppy deserve no such respect?

Instead risk the shameful label "unethical" ?

4)Do not breed to sell.

This ones a pretty interesting conundrum. If no one breeds to sell, where are those who do not want to be registered breeders going to find a pup? You cant have it both ways?

Even if you want an unregistered pup, same conundrum?

5) Breed only for your own next generation.

Ditto as in 4 isnt it.

6)Do not keep in Kennels or they cannot be properly socialised.

Fascinating this one. Thanks to all the new law's being passed for adequate housing, everyone is going to have to have concrete kennels, even if they dont intend to use them.

7)Do raise your pups in the home and keep your dogs in the home.

Now this is a fun one, puppy buyers expect just this.

Except? If your "puppy buyer" turns out, is an inspector, checking to see if your dogs are being housed "correctly" (as in kennels by law) it could end rather expensively, (any one know what the fines are or will be?

Is this the future ?

[asal]

Havent even touched on the expectation of many for that LIFETIME guarantee, when they get their pup.

I know I did ask one person who asked me if my pups came with said Lifetime guarantee, suggested they stick to getting their pup from the one who offered that.

Would greatly appreciate to know who is that breeder to see if they still have any in five years, since it was long discovered the majority of new breeders are no longer, within that time frame.

As I asked the gentleman concerned. Can YOU lifetime guarantee your child.

There is a very famous line used by breeders of all livestock the world over

"Put the Best to the Best and HOPE for the best."

Why? because Hope is all you have...there are no guarantees in mother nature.

Common sense isnt expected in the dog world is it?

Fortunately. I am no longer a breeder. WHAT A RELIEF.

Edited December 2, 2012 by asal

[Simply Grand]

FWIW I don't think prejudice against reg PB breeders on any of those grounds come from the pet buying public, if they exist (not saying that they don't) they come from some other breeders and PB people.

ETA 'some'.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Simply Grand

[Alkhe]

Seems like this is just going to create another thread like the axed ones.

[Simply Grand]

Actually you're right Alkhe. I dont really like to delete posts because I think it makes them seem more interesting than they were but I don't want to encourage more of the discussion in those threads so everyone please feel free to disregard my previous post.

[LisaCC]

I agree with Simply Grand, every non dog-crazed person (I say that with the best intentions :) ) I know doesn't think about any of those things when buying a pup, most don't even realise that you can health test dogs. I guess thats why BYB do such good business.

[LisaCC]

And yes it would be nice if this thread didn't turn into the other two.

[dancinbcs]

Just a note about Elfreda kennels. Yes they bred a lot of dogs but they had the perfect set up to do it and they bred for the good of the breed by turning out consistently well constructed, healthy dogs with great temperaments. I doubt they got rich from breeding because they used to spend a fortune on food and supplements for their puppies. I worked for the pet supply warehouse they shopped at every week so know how much they were spending on the very best of everything. They never cut corners or went for the cheap option. Money was never their priority, breeding good dogs was, even if they didn't show. It is possible to breed dogs on a larger scale like the the old kennels in the UK used to but you need the knowledge, facilities and dedication to do it right and most people with lots of dogs do not have all that.

Edited December 2, 2012 by dancinbcs

[asal]

Just a note about Elfreda kennels. Yes they bred a lot of dogs but they had the perfect set up to do it and they bred for the good of the breed by turning out consistently well constructed, healthy dogs with great temperaments. I doubt they got rich from breeding because they used to spend a fortune on food and supplements for their puppies. I worked for the pet supply warehouse they shopped at every week so know how much they were spending on the very best of everything. They never cut corners or went for the cheap option. Money was never their priority, breeding good dogs was, even if they didn't show. It is possible to breed dogs on a larger scale like the the old kennels in the UK used to but you need the knowledge, facilities and dedication to do it right and most people with lots of dogs do not have all that.

Thanks.

She is an amazing lady. It cut to the bone what many others at shows had to say about her.

I was thrilled to be able to take a litter of puppies directly descended from her dogs not that long ago, she was so pleased to see them. As you know she retired quite a while ago. She taught me so so much.

Even better, finally not that long ago one of her detractors all those years ago, were boasting how lucky they were to discover the new pup they had bought was descended from Elfreda...LOL

Couldnt get away fast enough to tell Phil.

Finally recognised for the quality she always strived to produce.

Unfortunately the things I listed are what Ive either read on this forum and most of them I have heard personally from puppy buyers.

Although, many are right, most of the phone calls to the animal welfare groups about complaints against a breeder, are from fellow breeders, even my letter from the minister of agriculture told me that. I cant believe it was 12 years ago now, those who think I am bitter are mistaken, its fear I cant cope with. Until that day I thought as long as you kept them well and healthy as Richard Amery said "you have nothing to fear" except since there was nothing wrong with my dogs and they all did comply with said "code" it didnt save him from being sized after all, because there's an out clause. "form the opinion" and your dog still dissappears, the only good thing is if it doesnt die under the aneshetic and nothing chargable is found you do get it back. Not sure which made the fear worse, discovering your "guilty until proven innocent" or even when was proven innocent, the continuos mutterings of "where there's smoke theres fire"...

I do hope one day people will remember the reason they have their dogs is because they like them, so do the other people who have dogs, believe it or not so many people with such a common interest should be friends .

Anne of Green Gables liked to think that way, pity more dont. Surely it shouldnt be restricted to book characters?

The majority of people who get one of your puppies are great people and become family members, lets face it they have one of your dogs. so it does tend to be a life time link. But there are enough of the other types thats its just not fun anymore.

As for the people who expect a lifetime guarantee. hand's up who has been asked for that?

I doubt I am the only one, I am not talking about not being ready to refund or replace if there was a serious something come up your vet missed in its first year. These people are talking 5 and more years, I asked just to be sure. Never wrote down each so not sure how many , but at least half a dozen a year the past 3 years. the last year would amount to nearly 1 in 5 so someone is busy spruking it. Although my suspicion is its someone who either hasnt a clue and will be getting a shock to discover seemingly perfect parents dont reliably produce perfect babies, or doesent intend being around if a claim does arrive.

Although these three are the ones I've seen here many times , although no idea who the people are since everyone only has a nick name.

so no idea if they are breeders, pet owners or Peta types.

3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold.

4)Do not breed to sell.

5) Breed only for your own next generation.

I know many newbies believe to the ethical they need to comply. (Ive met them and listened to them trying so hard to be what they think it means to be ethical)

So there is no chance of any of them becoming an Elfreda quality breeder.

I do think these questions need to be addressed somehow some way so the future has a chance to be much brighter than I suspect is shaping for future generations.

Then there's that UTTERLY STUPID, mindset that blames every findable genetic or congenital fault is the fault of inbreeding.....................

If the parents dont display whatever it is, then London to a brick if the fault is genetic then it is recessive. Learn your genetic's, a recessive HAS to be present in both parents.

How many know that many deletrious genes are what are termed poly genic? (The term “polygenic inheritance” is used to refer to the inheritance of quantitative traits, traits which are influenced by multiple genes, not just one. In addition to involving multiple genes, polygenic inheritance also looks at the role of environment in someone's development.

Because many traits are spread out across a continuum, rather than being divided into black and white differences, polygenic inheritance helps to explain the way in which these traits are inherited and focused. A related concept is pleiotropy, an instance where one gene influences multiple traits.

Early Mendelian genetics focused on very simple genetic traits which could be explained by a single gene. For example, a flower might appear in either orange or yellow form, with no gradation between the colors. By studying plants and the ways in which they mutated, early researchers were able to learn more about the gene which determined flower color. However, by the early twentieth century, people were well aware that most traits are far too complex to be determined by a single gene, and the idea of polygenic inheritance was born.)

Yet time and again I hear some one say the faults in that pup are due to inbreeding.........

Even when you can look at 6 generations and nope not one common ancestor.

Actually it still happens when the parents arent even the same breed, wonder where the film clip is of Rob Zammit with that cute little designer dog with the luxating patella's, think it had two groin hernia's as well as a navel hernia and something else? cant remember at the moment, could hardly walk but it certainly wasnt inbred but it was a genetic mess ,, so much for the wonders of hybrid vigour in designer/mutt dogs preventing the expression of the very genes inbreeding is supposed to cause.

How can that be? Because they dont HAVE to be related to carry deletrious genes.

By the same token if the two parents do not carry a particular bad gene, guess what? you can put them father to daugher, mother to son, brother to sister and what isn't there CAN'T turn up.. Inbreeding cannot create something if it isnt there!

LEARN for yourself, instead of believing "experts" who havent bothered to learn for themself, Badam Library at Sydney Uni if FULL of books to learn from, AS is The Stack.

Don't believe me, don't belive the ones telling you the opposite to what Ive just said. Learn for yourself, I did, ITS ALL THERE..... those who say all evil is in inbreeding havent done the study.j They are parroting what they have heard, not what is in proven genetic research.

Elfreda knew all this and more.

Well I have tried (hopefully for my sanity the last time) to get u lot to think for yourselves and learn.

Its up to you learn, learn to help each other instead of thinking someone is out to get you so better get them first and looking for a good spot to sink the knife.

The libber groups are busy doing that for you. Why help em?

Morning all. hopefully this is my last post... well im going to try to keep my word.........got to retire some time.

Edited December 2, 2012 by asal

[Steve]

Not sure what your point is here but I dont consider those things to be what it takes to be a good breeder. Might fit with the ethics - though ethical and reputable get chucked around all over the place - doesn't seem to take us anywhere and dogs suffer because of it not just in spite of it.

What this subject needs is an honest open discussion non personal debate with everyone having a desire to learn with all aspects of the dog world being taken into account and all groups held accountable for the part they all play in where this is all going - I don't believe it is possible to do this here.

[juice]

My main thoughts are breeders breeding to better the breed, regardless of whats winning in the show ring.

We can all see dogs who can't move properly in the ring, i would prefer a breeder who may not show, but has healthy well put together dogs.

I don't have a problem with breeding to sell ,or make money, if they can, as long as they are producing good health tested dogs.

Surely what we want is joe public to go somewhere to buy healthy pet dogs.

[Steve]

My main thoughts are breeders breeding to better the breed, regardless of whats winning in the show ring.

We can all see dogs who can't move properly in the ring, i would prefer a breeder who may not show, but has healthy well put together dogs.

I don't have a problem with breeding to sell ,or make money, if they can, as long as they are producing good health tested dogs.

Surely what we want is joe public to go somewhere to buy healthy pet dogs.

Yep but its much more than that .

[JulesP]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

[Dame Aussie]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

[Steve]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

Part of the problem is that CC registered breeders have a code of ethics - yet many of them don't really know what they say and what they have agreed to and those in the public decide what they think is ethical and expect that everyone else will be and think the same way.

no one has any right to have an expectation on a registered breeder for anything that's not in their code of ethics. that's all they agreed to and all they are held accountable for .

Ask people to define ethical and you dont get the same answer from anyone same with the term reputable.

When people make up their own ethics unless there is an accountability process many of them will justify doing something outside of that if they think its better for attaining their goals some of them will have higher and lower standards - no amount of laws will help that.

[mixeduppup]

But my question is, do you think someone can be ethical without being reg?

Edited December 2, 2012 by mixeduppup

[JulesP]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

Part of the problem is that CC registered breeders have a code of ethics - yet many of them don't really know what they say and what they have agreed to and those in the public decide what they think is ethical and expect that everyone else will be and think the same way.

no one has any right to have an expectation on a registered breeder for anything that's not in their code of ethics. that's all they agreed to and all they are held accountable for .

Ask people to define ethical and you dont get the same answer from anyone same with the term reputable.

When people make up their own ethics unless there is an accountability process many of them will justify doing something outside of that if they think its better for attaining their goals some of them will have higher and lower standards - no amount of laws will help that.

I have every right to buy a puppy from someone that meets my personal expectations of what is ethical. I actually don't care one bit about the ANKC rules or whatever. I make up my own mind about what I think is ok or not.

[Dame Aussie]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them.

Part of the problem is that CC registered breeders have a code of ethics - yet many of them don't really know what they say and what they have agreed to and those in the public decide what they think is ethical and expect that everyone else will be and think the same way.

no one has any right to have an expectation on a registered breeder for anything that's not in their code of ethics. that's all they agreed to and all they are held accountable for .

Ask people to define ethical and you dont get the same answer from anyone same with the term reputable.

When people make up their own ethics unless there is an accountability process many of them will justify doing something outside of that if they think its better for attaining their goals some of them will have higher and lower standards - no amount of laws will help that.

I have every right to buy a puppy from someone that meets my personal expectations of what is ethical. I actually don't care one bit about the ANKC rules or whatever. I make up my own mind about what I think is ok or not.

Agree. Whether or not they are following the ANKC rules is secondary to whether they are doing what I believe is ethical.

[LizT]

I have my own list of what I consider to be ethical and what I expect from a breeder. I don't expect my list to be the same as other people's list.

I agree JulesP, even with different breeds my expectations would have different directives and priorities. It certainly would not be a "blanket one size fits all" list.

But by some individuals expectations and definitions, a BYB could quite readily meet ones "expectations". Not every puppy buyer comes as pre-armed of information as the next. I know I haven't always, for the longest time it was about, conditions, parents behaviour and puppys behaviour and percievable health. AND, yes, price was also a major factor to consider.

Edited December 2, 2012 by LizT

[Aidan3]

Ethics are not entirely subjective. They can be subjected to tests of reason and logic, and there are principles that are common to most reasonable people.

That does not mean that two breeders will necessarily do the same things in order to be ethical, even against what could be a fairly narrow set of ethical guidelines, so long as the guidelines are actually about ethics and not something else (eg kennel flooring materials, or a staff to dog ratio - either of which could be related to ethical outcomes, but are not ethical properties in themselves).