Guidedog Pts...

[Guest donatella]

Indeed, there is a very recent one actually, and they have even put an awake dog in an MRI.

Doesn't prove they don't have any idea of death. I am not talking to human understanding here.

At the end of the day there are NO studies that prove they do nor don't have any concept.

[Florise]

Go to google scholar and search for " Do dogs (Canis familiaris) understand invisible displacement?" you'll see a paper with lead author E Collier-Baker and me second author, you can download the PDF. That is the paper that got us an international award.

Hey well done Reverend Jo Not many people on this forum could lay claim to something like that!

[PuddleDuck]

One study isn't cement for what cognitive abilities dogs have.

There will have been studies since this with different results, you generally take the most recent results (when going by evidenced based).

There is a reason why when writing papers they have a 5 year limit on articles, because yes, things can change. It's the way studies work.

Then maybe you should put forward the studies that prove your theory or disproves Jo's?

[Guest donatella]

I've maintained this whole time 'in my opinion' and still those were adamant that is wrong.

FYI how do you prove something that has neither been proven or not?

I couldn't care less what opinion people have and have stated many times over that there are believes on both sides of the fence.

Edited April 11, 2013 by donatella

[pebbles]

Over my long years of having multiple dogs I've had to help many of them over the bridge. Until a few years ago they had all gone peacefully until Ben. Ben had the great habit of anytime I left him, in the house, in the car etc. he would let out the loudest, longest mourneful howl. The day I had to give him his wings, I was holding him, the Vet inserted the needle and Ben let out one of his howls If it had of been possible I'd have stopped the euth right then even though Ben was a very sick boy. That howl still haunts me. I've had to send two to the bridge since then and I now get the Vet to heavily sedate them first.

[Are You Serious Jo]

The big difference is there is credible evidence for my position but you can't produce any for yours. I'm not going to list every paper up till now for you or summarise all the research, the onus is on you to prove me wrong. I put that paper up as an example and to show that I didn't make it up about working in the field. There's a lot of work being done with dogs and minimax is right, they still haven't evolved metarepresentation :laugh:

[Steve]

Look Im no scholar Im just an ordinary every day person who lives with dogs.

Dogs are geared for survival so if there are things in the environment or the owners body language etc that they can feel threatened by which may affect their ability to survive I expect they would react - but I dont agree they can take that instinct to the next level of pre meditated thought and have an understanding of what is death. An understanding of death is difficult for children to get. Few kids think if I do that I might die and know that die means you will no longer exist until they are past a level of cognitive development yet you want me to believe a dog can. Nup.

not really the point to the story though anyway - fact is the owner wanted it and asked someone to promise they would and they fulfilled their promise - dog's dead cant suffer any more even if it did know it was going to die and what that meant - end of story.

[Guest donatella]

Look Im no scholar Im just an ordinary every day person who lives with dogs.

Dogs are geared for survival so if there are things in the environment or the owners body language etc that they can feel threatened by which may affect their ability to survive I expect they would react - but I dont agree they can take that instinct to the next level of pre meditated thought and have an understanding of what is death. An understanding of death is difficult for children to get. Few kids think if I do that I might die and know that die means you will no longer exist until they are past a level of cognitive development yet you want me to believe a dog can. Nup.

not really the point to the story though anyway - fact is the owner wanted it and asked someone to promise they would and they fulfilled their promise - dog's dead cant suffer any more even if it did know it was going to die and what that meant - end of story.

Yes, i'm just a dog owner too and have seen a dog deteriorate rapidly because of grief after her sister died. I think when you experience these things first hand that are unable to be explained it puts a new perspective in your mind.

I am not saying they have the understanding we have, however, I have seen a dog go through the motions of grief and loss after death that has opened my eyes to new concepts.

Edited April 11, 2013 by donatella

[Steve]

Look Im no scholar Im just an ordinary every day person who lives with dogs.

Dogs are geared for survival so if there are things in the environment or the owners body language etc that they can feel threatened by which may affect their ability to survive I expect they would react - but I dont agree they can take that instinct to the next level of pre meditated thought and have an understanding of what is death. An understanding of death is difficult for children to get. Few kids think if I do that I might die and know that die means you will no longer exist until they are past a level of cognitive development yet you want me to believe a dog can. Nup.

not really the point to the story though anyway - fact is the owner wanted it and asked someone to promise they would and they fulfilled their promise - dog's dead cant suffer any more even if it did know it was going to die and what that meant - end of story.

Yes, i'm just a dog owner too and have seen a dog deteriorate rapidly because of grief after her sister died. I think when you experience these things first hand that are unable to be explained it puts a new perspective in your mind.

I am not saying they have the understanding we have, however, I have seen a dog go through the motions of grief and loss after death that has opened my eyes to new concepts.

I have seen this as well but I interpreted what I saw was simply about no longer having the company of that dog rather than understanding the dog was dead as in dead.

[Are You Serious Jo]

It's a totally new situation when a companion is no longer there. Some dogs don't cope with change very well.

[Sheridan]

It's a totally new situation when a companion is no longer there. Some dogs don't cope with change very well.

When Grumpy died, Mini got quite clingy for a little while. I assumed this was because the "boss" wasn't there.

[persephone]

Even shingleback lizards, who mate for life will hang around and 'mope' for a while when a partner is killed , and I really don't think they understand death ....

Bitches will still attempt to have dead puppies suckle..will nudge them and mouth them , and place them accordingly for some time , until lack of response , loss of body temperature etc shut down the instincts .....

[corvus]

Donatella has touched on something science doesn't understand very well, and that is the emotional lives of animals. There is evidence that some social animals at least are empathetic towards others of their own species - something that seems to be going by the wayside in this thread in the rush to pit science-based evidence against someone's beliefs to prove them wrong. It amazes me that sometimes people who know a lot of psychology seem to forget all about things like cognitive dissonance and sunk-cost (and Dunning-Kruger?) when they get caught up in an argument with someone else. There are a plethora of cognitive biases that at least tend to make me more considerate when I disagree with people. The burden is on me to be more understanding because I know about that stuff.

Anyway, an animal doesn't need to grasp the finality of death to grieve.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I give back the same degree of respect I am given, if you read the thread you'll see the disrespect was thrown at me before I had to provide proof. I can only imagine the reception I'd get if I started to tell someone that I knew more about say nursing than them :laugh: I am not here to make people like me so water off a duck's back at the end of the day.

[Guest donatella]

I never stated to know anything more then anyone, how old are you?

All my beliefs were based on my own opinion, very clearly stated as that throughout.

In regards to the proof, you are the first to demand evidence, since you were making claims (not of a personal opinionated belief) I think it's only fair I ask to see them.

I would never rise to your 'claims to know more about nursing' because I'm not 12 and its not a competition.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I never stated to know anything more then anyone, how old are you?

All my beliefs were based on my own opinion, very clearly stated as that throughout.

In regards to the proof, you are the first to demand evidence, since you were making claims (not of a personal opinionated belief) I think it's only fair I ask to see them.

I would never rise to your 'claims to know more about nursing' because I'm not 12 and its not a competition.

Right, so now you have been proven wrong it is just an opinion, but before that you were adamant that your claim was right and no one could prove you were wrong. You didn't know I was going to pull a paper out to show you, did you think I was bluffing :laugh: I don't lie, so if I make a scientific claim it's because I have proof.

[Guest donatella]

Jo if that's what you believe then that is fine. One only needs to read the thread to see the truth.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Yeah, they sure can see the truth when they read the thread, I'm not the only one who responded to you with some facts when you were asking where's the proof. It's ok to be wrong, you can learn new things

[Sheridan]

Really, I'm at the point of either asking the two of you to get a room.

[tdierikx]

I don't think that dogs understand the concept of death and the finality of it - but they can and do respond in what can only be described as an emotional way when a close "mate" of theirs is no longer around.

What makes me think this is because of the reaction by one of my dogs once when his close mate (a bitch) died due to a neighbour poisoning her. We don't know exactly when she died before we got home, but it was long enough (in Summer) for her to have started to swell - so her mate had been with her body for at least some time period before we got home that day. We buried her in a corner of the yard, and that is where he chose to lie for the next 3 weeks - wind, rain, or shine. I had to bring him his food and water to that spot for the duration of his "mourning" (I can only describe his actions as such). After 3 weeks, he got up one day and rejoined the rest of the goings on as if nothing had ever happened.

I do know that dogs will definitely react to a sudden change of routine when something big changes like another dog passing - some more extreme in their responses than others, but I don't necessarily think it is a true "mourning" of their departed friend, like in the example above, but more of a knowledge that a big change to their normal routine is occurring.

It's going to be "interesting" when my current oldie goes to the Bridge, as she has been here for the entire lives of all of my other dogs... I hope they handle it with the same aplomb they do when the fosters get adopted. I do think that Pickles may act out though, as she is closest to Zeddy emotionally.

T.