Is There An Answer?

[Steve]

All well said Angelsun except what of the people who do own lots and lots of dogs or even just a couple and they have to follow the local laws for housing them? Is there some way to manage them and house them and have a good outcome for the dogs ?

[WreckitWhippet]

All well said Angelsun except what of the people who do own lots and lots of dogs or even just a couple and they have to follow the local laws for housing them? Is there some way to manage them and house them and have a good outcome for the dogs ?

what is "lots" ?

[Steve]

Dunno pick a number . Probably more than Angelsun's 5 .

[WreckitWhippet]

Dunno pick a number . Probably more than Angelsun's 5 .

Some one somewhere is going to draw a magical line in the sand, chances are they won't even own a dog. Naturally those who have less than the magical number will think it's fine, as it doesn't affect them.

Do you think the one in all in approach would see everyone, even those with a couple of dogs be required to build DA approved kennels ?

[cowanbree]

I find it difficult to comment on things like that as on the one hand I would love to see some dogs that live totally miserable lives as breeding machines live better lives but on the other hand I don't think people like me should be penalised and forced to spend huge $ building facilities that will never be used. I currently have 11 dogs and while the young ones are kennelled during the day while I am at work when I am home they are all inside with me. If I have litters they are born and raised inside.

I don't know what the answer is

[JulesP]

Do we just accept that if we breed dogs we have no choice but to have to house them knowing its not good for them or do we have a chance at finding some thing that really does focus on what is best for the dogs?

I just wouldn't keep a large volume of dogs in a kennel because I don't think it is good for them. They aren't cows. So I would prefer to see this practice stopped rather then finding ways to make it ok.

[~Anne~]

Assumption one: the dogs are kennelled because there are too many to be kept as house dogs or under similar conditions to the average pet dog?

Based on the above assumption - why is it necessary to have 'too many' dogs?

For argument sake, let's say that 'too many' for large to medium breeds = 6+; and small breeds 8+

Edited April 7, 2013 by ~Anne~

[Steve]

Do we just accept that if we breed dogs we have no choice but to have to house them knowing its not good for them or do we have a chance at finding some thing that really does focus on what is best for the dogs?

I just wouldn't keep a large volume of dogs in a kennel because I don't think it is good for them. They aren't cows. So I would prefer to see this practice stopped rather then finding ways to make it ok.

Yes but it clearly isn't going to stop. Large scale commercial kennels are becoming more common rather than less and small hobby breeders are being made to keep even what I consider relatively small numbers like this when they prefer not to.

The facts are that if you breed a dog on your property you are seen to be operating a business from home - same with rescue by the way - even one rescue dog and its the same thing and it has no consequence whether you are after a profit. That means a DA is required to get approval to breed dogs on your property and this plus the companion animals act and prevention of cruelty to animals acts will be taken into account if we have to be licensed. In NSW in at least some council areas - its an inability to house more than 2 dogs within 15 metres of a dwelling as well.

We have seen recently breeders who have only a few dogs who have an exemption for a permit in Victoria who still have to have money spent on kenneling, quarantining and whelping areas.

One in Queensland had 8 dogs on 100 acres and has had them living in her home and sleeping on the bed - whelping them in the laundry for over 10 years.She is told when she applied for a licence to breed that she had to have 35000 worth of kennels built in order to breed them.

Nowhere in any codes does it say you get out of it if you only have one dog - same applies to everyone.

[smisch]

we live in surburbia and have 6 kids atm 5 small and our old afghan... we breed on occasion and show... our dogs are trained to love their crates, when were not at home about 4 hrs a day everyone but the afghan is either in their crate or on the tiled area inside only due to problem neighbors and 2 of the kids are highly reactive and will bark constantly if we leave them outside unattended as such. when we're home they have pretty much free reign inside, outside or in their crate whatever they choose but if they act up its into their crate and free reign stops until they settle.

my boss has a boarding kento ls and they also breed dogs but all hee dogs alternate from being up at the house (many oldies and the pups live up there) and some stay in the kennels. every morning I take them out to their yards which are lovely large yards big as your average backyard and they have beds and buckets and dirt and grass and they just enjoy their day in their social groups if its raining heavily or at night everyone comes inside to their runs. but they're all spoilt and fat and treated well like pets but in a kennels and I don't see an issue with it as I see how happy the dogs are.

I think each to their own. like I believe how my kids live works, I love them they get to enjoy their days without annoying anyone. I don't agree in cases where people don't allow the dogs to be dogs they need ample time to run and bark and play and socialise

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Assumption one: the dogs are kennelled because there are too many to be kept as house dogs or under similar conditions to the average pet dog?

Something which doesn't fit us, for example. We have athletic breeds and we live rurally and we both work full time.

It is safer for the dogs and surrounding livestock if they are kennelled while we are at work rather than being cooped up inside where they can't toilet or running loose getting into trouble. When we are home, they have freedom to wander around the fenced house paddock which would be somewhere between 2-3 acres or to plop themselves on the couches. They are probably kennelled about 35-40 hours a week and never overnight.

The tricky thing is that breeds vary, circumstances vary, and what is being created with the NSW proposals is a one size fits all approach that just fits the large dog farmers. While I agree with WIW that they'd be better off just enforcing the laws they have, I know that is neither cheap nor an easy announceable - unlike passing yet more legislation. So I think what needs fixing in the proposals is the requirement to kennel dogs just because you breed. Perhaps they need two standards - one for home rearing and one for kennel rearing and you declare when being "licensed" which you are.

Edited to fix verb declension.

Edited April 7, 2013 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Steve]

Assumption one: the dogs are kennelled because there are too many to be kept as house dogs or under similar conditions to the average pet dog?

Based on the above assumption - why is it necessary to have 'too many' dogs?

For argument sake, let's say that 'too many' for large to medium breeds = 6+; and small breeds 8+

Why is it necessary is open to debate but reality is some people have many more than that and sometimes I think that's justified - sometimes I don't. Some of the best breeders of purebred dogs in history owned many more than 6 to 8 very few chi breeders would only own 8 but in the real world there are breeders who own too many dogs to be able to have free run of the place as every day pet dogs but there are also breeders who only own a few which could be kept in a back yard as pet dogs which have to house their 6 or 8 in conditions they would prefer they didnt.

Most commercial breeders Ive spoken to have told me they would prefer to use their acreages as simulated back yards rather than have to construct traditional kennel buildings. Though what do they do with 25 or so plus litters at one time - cant see them being housed in simulated back yards while they whelp ??????

[mita]

I've always liked the idea of a kind of mentor ship program where breeding dogs are placed as per a normal pet home but the home can have the option of allowing their dog to be used for breeding under the guidance of the breeder who owns the prefix. That way numerous dogs can be bred by the one breeder and with the benefit of the breeders experience and know how without the dogs having to be permanently housed and owners by the one breeder, negating many of the issues with housing tens or hundreds of breeding dogs on the one property.

I realise this is something that many breeders already engage in with co ownership etc but if it were embraced and promoted at an organisational level it might also be used to grow the network of breeders and owners who are happy to work together with those aims and reduce the need to house large numbers of dogs on single properties.

WH, you've come up with something that helped me get over the horror of reading in the OP that up to a couple of hundred dogs could be on one property.

Any issue about 'keeping' dogs should start with socialisation. Other requirements, like their accommodation, flow from that.

Yet exactly what socialisation is .... & what it entails... rarely gets a look in, in threads like this. It's about how dogs become hardwired.. And it doesn't apply only to the puppies.... there's a link between puppies' development & the degree of socialisation of the mother dog.

So any system that ensures dogs are kept in numbers & circumstances that allow for socialisation within the lifestyles of humans, is fine by me.

And I won't have to be appalled to read of dogs being kept in scores & hundreds with unfortunate ramifications for their neurological hardwiring.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mita

[Steve]

Yes but if you get a breeder that moves them off site via a guardian home will that stop them from having as many as possible anyway on their own property.It can increase the numbers a breeder can breed with but it usually doesn't keep numbers down any lower on the property as in the two cases I spoke of earlier.Its a possible solution and a good thing for purebred breeders but we are not only speaking of purebred breeders who know their limits - who have those specific goals in why they breed - probably needs a topic of its own but it doesn't address the need to find ways of keeping dogs in larger than average up to outrageous numbers without them having to compromise on what is good for them.

[mita]

I was only talking about purebred breeders, Steve, because they show their dogs & put them up for scrutiny against a standard.

One of the best people in my breed of interest follows a system something like WH described. She only has few dogs herself & a few other people show & keep a couple of hers. No wonder the dogs I've got from her ... are brilliantly socialised.

Whoever keeps scores or hundreds of dogs on one property ... First tick or cross in the box has to be .... is there socialisation of both parent dogs & puppies?

Edited April 7, 2013 by mita

[Steve]

I was only talking about purebred breeders, Steve, because they show their dogs & put them up for scrutiny against a standard.

One of the best people in my breed of interest follows a system something like WH described. She only has few dogs herself & a few other people show & keep a couple of hers. No wonder the dogs I've got from her ... are brilliantly socialised.

Whoever keeps scores & hundreds of dogs on one property is engaging in a puppy-farming technique. First tick or cross in the box.... is there socialisation of both parent dogs & puppies?

Yes and I know its hard to imagine a hundred plus dogs on one site - Im still getting over it and had to work hard at not showing the thoughts that were going through my head .But purebred or other wise some breeders do keep large numbers of dogs and some have to keep small numbers of dogs as if they keep large numbers of dogs. I guess trying to work out a better management was always going to be difficult.

In all honesty when I saw it whether or not they were getting adequate socilisation is the last thing I was looking at ticking. I was sorting out if they EVER got off those concreted floor, if they EVER saw sunlight, how their eyes didnt disintergrate and their lungs collapse with the stench of the ammonia - socialisation ? how? But would it be easier to give them socialisation if the basic planning of the housing were different?

[mita]

Socialisation involves becoming acquainted with the lives that humans normally live.... & all that goes with it. Humans do not live the majority of their lives shut away in concrete-floored accommodation with little or no experience with natural light, fresh air and the normal grass & ground... and even everyday environmental noises.

Socialisation is not only a pair of human hands touching and the scent & sound of humans. It's also about the social context in which humans live. If dogs are to become hardwired as companion dogs for humans .... they need to share that particular context alongside the humans they've learned to trust.

Edited April 7, 2013 by mita

[~Anne~]

Assumption one: the dogs are kennelled because there are too many to be kept as house dogs or under similar conditions to the average pet dog?

Based on the above assumption - why is it necessary to have 'too many' dogs?

For argument sake, let's say that 'too many' for large to medium breeds = 6+; and small breeds 8+

Why is it necessary is open to debate but reality is some people have many more than that and sometimes I think that's justified - sometimes I don't. Some of the best breeders of purebred dogs in history owned many more than 6 to 8 very few chi breeders would only own 8 but in the real world there are breeders who own too many dogs to be able to have free run of the place as every day pet dogs but there are also breeders who only own a few which could be kept in a back yard as pet dogs which have to house their 6 or 8 in conditions they would prefer they didnt.

Most commercial breeders Ive spoken to have told me they would prefer to use their acreages as simulated back yards rather than have to construct traditional kennel buildings. Though what do they do with 25 or so plus litters at one time - cant see them being housed in simulated back yards while they whelp ??????

You didn't answer the question though. Why is it necessary to have 'too many' dogs. What is the benefit?

If the dogs are being kept kennelled because there are 'too many' dogs to keep any other way, what is the justification for having 'too many' dogs. If there is no relevant justification then limiting the number of dogs is part way to resolving the issue isn't it?

[Dame Aussie]

I don't think dogs should live in kennels. If I wanted to breed and had to keep them in kennels to do so, I just wouldn't go ahead with it.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I don't think dogs should live in kennels. If I wanted to breed and had to keep them in kennels to do so, I just wouldn't go ahead with it.

I think this may well be part of the ideological approach underlying the proposal. Because breeders are not socially respected, the answer from the GP will be "well duh, breeding is bad".

[JulesP]

Do we just accept that if we breed dogs we have no choice but to have to house them knowing its not good for them or do we have a chance at finding some thing that really does focus on what is best for the dogs?

I just wouldn't keep a large volume of dogs in a kennel because I don't think it is good for them. They aren't cows. So I would prefer to see this practice stopped rather then finding ways to make it ok.

Yes but it clearly isn't going to stop. Large scale commercial kennels are becoming more common rather than less and small hobby breeders are being made to keep even what I consider relatively small numbers like this when they prefer not to.

The facts are that if you breed a dog on your property you are seen to be operating a business from home - same with rescue by the way - even one rescue dog and its the same thing and it has no consequence whether you are after a profit. That means a DA is required to get approval to breed dogs on your property and this plus the companion animals act and prevention of cruelty to animals acts will be taken into account if we have to be licensed. In NSW in at least some council areas - its an inability to house more than 2 dogs within 15 metres of a dwelling as well.

We have seen recently breeders who have only a few dogs who have an exemption for a permit in Victoria who still have to have money spent on kenneling, quarantining and whelping areas.

One in Queensland had 8 dogs on 100 acres and has had them living in her home and sleeping on the bed - whelping them in the laundry for over 10 years.She is told when she applied for a licence to breed that she had to have 35000 worth of kennels built in order to breed them.

Nowhere in any codes does it say you get out of it if you only have one dog - same applies to everyone.

This has already been discussed at length. I was under the impression this was a different topic. And you said all views were welcome. Incorrect obviously. Keep this up and soon you are going to to talking to yourself.