Help Needed Desperately :(

[Boronia]

I know that there are many Dolers out there who are more experienced in dog behaviour than I am, but I am thinking that if she has peed and pooed on the indoor mat it may be an idea to put that mat outside and take her there when it's toilet time.

It will have the smell on it and perhaps it may just 'click' with her to do her business on it.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Boronia

[Darien]

I must add here that she does go out for toileting sometimes and the mats have been removed :) It's just odd the way she does toilet inside and believe me, she does know not to do it inside as she is not silly at all....not as smart as a BC, but then no other dog is :D

I have to address her separation anxiety from me as she will not stay outside unless I am there, she will not stay in any room that I am not in I have had her on Canine Tranquility meds from the petshop, but as this anxiety appears to be getting worse, it's time I think to talk to my vet. To be honest, at this point and with thinking on it, I doubt I will fully toilet train her until this is addressed. I had her in a crate last night ans she put out first thing this morning with no mess inside, but that will often happen anyway. I could leave her outside on her own, or with Kiska and she will scratch at the backdoor the whole time until I let her in....that could be hours...and she come in and pee.

[dogbesotted]

poor dog! poor you! a challenging situation for both of you. She must be so confused. her entier world has shifted dramatically and everything she has known for her entier life has now changed.

Is it possible to obtain some of the DAP ( dog appeasing pheromone)

H

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

She's had a huge change in her life, 5 weeks is not a long period of time. Separation anxiety can also cause toileting issues, it can be one of the symptoms.

It's about 2 months before the dog feels like you are the owner. Let's catch up asap and we can go through everything.

I do help a lot of people settle their new dogs in and deal with some issues. Depending on what the issues are I do have to sometimes refer them on to a behaviouralist but many times just using a new strategy in a certain situation does the trick ...

In the meantime, remove all rugs and close all doors to other rooms in the house - cut off the access.

Putting her outside alone when you are all inside is like a punishment and she might just be coming in and piddling because she's upset with the treatment. She needs consistency and retraining. There's a lot to think about.

Edited July 14, 2013 by dogmad

[gsdog2]

Putting her outside alone when you are all inside is like a punishment and she might just be coming in and piddling because she's upset with the treatment. She needs consistency and retraining. There's a lot to think about.

I agree with this ^^^^

My dogs have no issues with separation anxiety but if I'm inside they're inside, if I'm outside that's where they want to be. However, if I go out for the day they're fine with that too.

Congrats on giving this girl a good home - she's going to have a great life with her new family.

Looks like you've found the right person to give you practical advice on the toileting issue with dogmad :)

[sas]

I take fosters out every 30 minutes whilst home to toilet train them, it works every time even if some take longer. I have realised in the past that before I used this method I used to somehow expect the dogs to have some kind of understanding of what I wanted.

I take them out, on lead if necc, and as soon as they start to go I calmly say "Goooood Tooooilet" and then when they're done they get whatever praise makes them feel special, we may then have a little play in the backyard to show that the backyard is a fun place to be.

When we are toilet training we lift up all rugs!When inside the house the dog must only be able to access the room you're in so you can see them and see the toileting signs.

I really recommend you stop thinking you know what the dog understands and doesn't because dogs have a good way at showing you they're not toilet trained...your dog is showing you that now. The breed and how smart they are is not relevant. Go back to basics and don't think the dog understands. It's very common for most dogs when toilet training to toilet outside and inside.

I would recommend you start a separation training program with her, I have one you can access: http://www.greatdane...on_training.pdf although seeing as you're going to be going outside with the dog every 30 minutes separation isn't going to be a problem to start with.

I acknowledge you sound frustrated and annoyed but in all fairness it doesn't sound like you've really broken this training down into baby steps and done anything about the anxiety other than buy some supplements which aren't going to address the problem.

Edited July 14, 2013 by sas

[Zug Zug]

Yes patience is the key, and I agree crate training is certainly going to help. I have my fingers crossed for you that she is not one of those dogs that will pee in their own bed. Most won't which is why the crate works so well. And it allows you a short break from constantly watching her.

It takes time and the trick is to keep her carefully guided to the right choices, not leaving anything to chance. Only have her wandering around inside when you know she is empty, and never for very long until she is showing she is more reliable.

Good luck with the separation anxiety. Hopefully she will soon bond with your other dog as well, which may help on that score. Do not reward any fussing at the door. It can quickly become habit forming so you'll need to find ways around that, and be strong.

[persephone]

I take fosters out every 30 minutes whilst home to toilet train them, it works every time even if some take longer. I have realised in the past that before I used this method I used to somehow expect the dogs to have some kind of understanding of what I wanted.

I take them out, on lead if necc, and as soon as they start to go I calmly say "Goooood Tooooilet" and then when they're done they get whatever praise makes them feel special, we may then have a little play in the backyard to show that the backyard is a fun place to be.

When we are toilet training we lift up all rugs!When inside the house the dog must only be able to access the room you're in so you can see them and see the toileting signs.

I really recommend you stop thinking you know what the dog understands and doesn't because dogs have a good way at showing you they're not toilet trained...your dog is showing you that now. The breed and how smart they are is not relevant. Go back to basics and don't think the dog understands. It's very common for most dogs when toilet training to toilet outside and inside.

I would recommend you start a separation training program with her, I have one you can access: http://www.greatdane...on_training.pdf although seeing as you're going to be going outside with the dog every 30 minutes separation isn't going to be a problem to start with.

I acknowledge you sound frustrated and annoyed but in all fairness it doesn't sound like you've really broken this training down into baby steps and done anything about the anxiety other than buy some supplements which aren't going to address the problem.

Ahhh .. yes . If there is so much anxiety involved , toilet training will be hard for you both. working with a mature dog and multiple problems requires a lot of understanding on your part ..and a certain way of approaching things.

sas is very experienced, and I recommend the pdf link she has included.

Please read the bolded bit again .

It does not matter how smart a dog is ... certain behaviours , ingrained, and triggered by anything from texture to sounds, to scents can still override learning until managed correctly.

Keep us posted ...:)

[Nic.B]

I take fosters out every 30 minutes whilst home to toilet train them, it works every time even if some take longer. I have realised in the past that before I used this method I used to somehow expect the dogs to have some kind of understanding of what I wanted.

I take them out, on lead if necc, and as soon as they start to go I calmly say "Goooood Tooooilet" and then when they're done they get whatever praise makes them feel special, we may then have a little play in the backyard to show that the backyard is a fun place to be.

When we are toilet training we lift up all rugs!When inside the house the dog must only be able to access the room you're in so you can see them and see the toileting signs.

I really recommend you stop thinking you know what the dog understands and doesn't because dogs have a good way at showing you they're not toilet trained...your dog is showing you that now. The breed and how smart they are is not relevant. Go back to basics and don't think the dog understands. It's very common for most dogs when toilet training to toilet outside and inside.

I would recommend you start a separation training program with her, I have one you can access: http://www.greatdane...on_training.pdf although seeing as you're going to be going outside with the dog every 30 minutes separation isn't going to be a problem to start with.

I acknowledge you sound frustrated and annoyed but in all fairness it doesn't sound like you've really broken this training down into baby steps and done anything about the anxiety other than buy some supplements which aren't going to address the problem.

Yes, this is great advice along with Dogmad and DOLers.

Limiting any distractions while toileting worked well (for me) with fosters who were particularly distracted (new surrounds etc) other than toileting. If I had a particularly distracted foster I often toileted them with my mature Kelpie female and kept things very relaxed, calm and simple.

Knowing their bladder (I know it sounds stupid) also helps as an easily distracted dog may wee a tiny bit (not emptied) and become interseted in something else. At times I waited for 20 mins or more to ensure their bladder was empty :laugh: to begin with (first few days) an easily distracted foster would wee four times or so (in between other things) before I knew they were sorted.

If your little one has previously toileted in her pen in a kennel environment it is all about showing and supporting her to toilet differently than what she has been familiar with so far.

Consistancy is key :) A concerted effort with regular opportunities to toilet, reward (low tonned and relaxed yes, good girl etc while your dog "actualy" toilets)and afterwards upbeat, happy rewards (food, pats, verbal praise etc)

[Nic.B]

Quote:

"I have tried everything the books etc tell you to do. For example putting her out after feed and allowing access to outside at all times, apart from the night time"

Your new dog is unfamiliar with toileting outside, it is a completely new experience for her. She has lived in a kennel environment, this is a new experience for her.

Are your simply putting her outside and expecting her to toilet on her own? You need to stay with her to encourage her to toilet, reward her and to make sure she has toileted.

I would invest in a crate (for overnight) and make it really special for her :)

ETA

Edited July 14, 2013 by Nic.B

[persephone]

I would invest in a crate (for overnight) and make it really special for her

and do get assistance with this ... the little dog is 'middle aged', has anxiety and is confused ....

Do you know exactly how/where she was housed previously ? Knowing that would help with her rehab. a great deal, I think

[Nic.B]

I would invest in a crate (for overnight) and make it really special for her

and do get assistance with this ... the little dog is 'middle aged', has anxiety and is confused ....

Do you know exactly how/where she was housed previously ? Knowing that would help with her rehab. a great deal, I think

I am not sure if I have missed something Pers though she has lived in a kennel environment going by the OP.

Does she suffer from anxiety? If so, I have missed that as well

[Nic.B]

I must add here that she does go out for toileting sometimes and the mats have been removed :) It's just odd the way she does toilet inside and believe me, she does know not to do it inside as she is not silly at all....not as smart as a BC, but then no other dog is :D

I have to address her separation anxiety from me as she will not stay outside unless I am there, she will not stay in any room that I am not in I have had her on Canine Tranquility meds from the petshop, but as this anxiety appears to be getting worse, it's time I think to talk to my vet. To be honest, at this point and with thinking on it, I doubt I will fully toilet train her until this is addressed. I had her in a crate last night ans she put out first thing this morning with no mess inside, but that will often happen anyway. I could leave her outside on her own, or with Kiska and she will scratch at the backdoor the whole time until I let her in....that could be hours...and she come in and pee.

I honestly do not want to appear to be dismisive, though five weeks is a very small period of time (going by your current posts) in settling a new dog (mid aged in a great NEW environment).

I have fostered goodness knows how many dogs (impounded) and every single one follows me from room to room until they get into the groove here.

Honestly, I have to say if my fosters didnt follow me around and look to me (at least for a little while) I would feel worried!

[Tara and Sam]

She's had a huge change in her life, 5 weeks is not a long period of time. Separation anxiety can also cause toileting issues, it can be one of the symptoms.

It's about 2 months before the dog feels like you are the owner. Let's catch up asap and we can go through everything.

I do help a lot of people settle their new dogs in and deal with some issues. Depending on what the issues are I do have to sometimes refer them on to a behaviouralist but many times just using a new strategy in a certain situation does the trick ...

In the meantime, remove all rugs and close all doors to other rooms in the house - cut off the access.

Putting her outside alone when you are all inside is like a punishment and she might just be coming in and piddling because she's upset with the treatment. She needs consistency and retraining. There's a lot to think about.

Maybe give her a bone to chew on as a treat when outside

when my 7 yr old CKCS who came from kennel arrived here , after a week or so I gave her a bone outside and I came back inside and could watch and see her ,

my food obsessed cocker right from the start I gave her a small treat after her toilet trips outside

my cocker followed me everywhere for 15 years

Good Luck

and when time Pics Please :)

[Wundahoo]

Many cockers, particularly mature bitches hate to toilet on wet grass. It sounds as though she is also imprinted for hard surfaces. This happens to many dogs that are kennel raised and I believe that there is some literature which talks about the age by which surface preference develops. It's quite young..... something like 8-10 weeks.

If your girl has been kept on hard surfaces for most of her life she will have some trouble adjusting to toileting outside, particularly if the area is wet. She will also be typical of most cockers in that she will want to be with you all the time and this opportunity might be something new to her if she has been a kennel dog all her life. As a result she will possibly show heightened anxiety until the novelty wears off a bit !

Rather than try lots of different ways of getting the message through, I would suggest that you speak with someone who is very experienced with retraining of adult dogs or seek the assistance of an expert in behavioural modification.

I dont think that it would be a mistake to use a method which involved crate training because if she has been a show dog she will be accustomed to being crated and wont feel that it's a bad place to be. Crate training can be a very positive method as it works on a dog's natural instinct to sleep in a den or small, covered and safe area.

Good luck with her. I'm sure that she will be a wonderful companion for you once she has settled in.

[persephone]

I am not sure if I have missed something Pers though she has lived in a kennel environment going by the OP.<br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247);"><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247);">Does she suffer from anxiety? If so, I have missed that as well

..sorry nic, and OP ..I was 'presuming ' :p

[Wundahoo]

I would invest in a crate (for overnight) and make it really special for her

and do get assistance with this ... the little dog is 'middle aged', has anxiety and is confused ....

Do you know exactly how/where she was housed previously ? Knowing that would help with her rehab. a great deal, I think

I am not sure if I have missed something Pers though she has lived in a kennel environment going by the OP.

Does she suffer from anxiety? If so, I have missed that as well

OP has said this......

"I have to address her separation anxiety from me as she will not stay outside unless I am there, she will not stay in any room that I am not in I have had her on Canine Tranquility meds from the petshop, but as this anxiety appears to be getting worse, it's time I think to talk to my vet."

[mita]

Crate train her, and treat her like a puppy. If you cant watch her have her crated, continue taking her out often, and praise like hell when she gets it. It must be hard for her to understand the big change in her life, and only 5 weeks in is not a lot of time to settle. She will get it eventually :).

How will crate training help? I am not a great believer in crating dogs, but if you can explain HOW it would work, I will try anything. Even when we are watching her she will either urinate of do a poo until take her outside and stay with her until she finishes it out there and then gets lots of praise (the neighbours must think I'm mad :) )

She is such a sweetheart and her and Kiska, my Border Collie, are getting along well.

Yes, I agree about your contacting Dogmad.

I've adopted adult dogs, too. I don't use crates, but I can understand fully why people do, to make the toilet training easier. Because it restricts areas where 'mistakes' will be made & the scent linger on, to lead the dog back again.

Bit late now.... but a breeder told me to let the dog have a run in the garden....at the very first time it's brought home. After giving it a big drink of water. Then wait, while it smells around the yard.... hopefully picking up the 'toileting' scents of the resident dog.... because dogs tend to go to the toot near or over the top of another dog's place. When it goes to the toot.... praise to high heavens, give it a treat...& note the spot so you can take it back there, next time. And pick a word that will signal going to the toilet... I use 'Toot, girls' for my dogs. I have found that having the resident dog outside with the new dog.... in the the period of toilet training... can help as one follows the other.

Then I only introduce the dog to one room, close to the back door only.... & put big green El Cheapo tarps on the floor (so that any mistake, does not get its scent into the actual floor. I can see why others would say.... it'd be easier to use a crate. But I just don't, no particular reason.

And I take the dog out.... back to the same garden spot, again & again. Making sure the door is closed so the dog gets to know.... outside means Toot.... & inside means other things, like meals.

Then, it's only when the penny has dropped for the dog.... in going outside for toileting .... that I give gradual access to the rest of the house.

Edited July 15, 2013 by mita

[Nic.B]

I would invest in a crate (for overnight) and make it really special for her

and do get assistance with this ... the little dog is 'middle aged', has anxiety and is confused ....

Do you know exactly how/where she was housed previously ? Knowing that would help with her rehab. a great deal, I think

I am not sure if I have missed something Pers though she has lived in a kennel environment going by the OP.

Does she suffer from anxiety? If so, I have missed that as well

OP has said this......

"I have to address her separation anxiety from me as she will not stay outside unless I am there, she will not stay in any room that I am not in I have had her on Canine Tranquility meds from the petshop, but as this anxiety appears to be getting worse, it's time I think to talk to my vet."

The behaviour is average and to be expected :) Some people put it down to SA.

[Leah82]

I can definitely attest to the fact that Cockers will want to be where you are. I grew up with independent outside dogs so it was a bit of an adjustment moving in with my OH and his Cocker. I couldn't understand why we he wouldn't stay outside by himself, he was fine when we weren't home after all.

Over the last 6 months I've come to the understanding that he's the type of dog that needs to feel included in your everyday life, they're very conscious of what's going on around them and don't want to miss out on anything, hence the following from room to room, no necessarily anxiety, just curiosity. If you want a dog that's more independent you may want to rethink your choice of a CS.

Also cockers aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, especially compared to your BC. They can learn but often their wants and curiosities can get in the way of them wanting to please you.

I find the difference amazing compared to my rescue poodle x. If Sarah get's tangled in her leash she'll quite happily untangle herself where as Cocker Collie will just deal with the discomfort because he's following a scent :p