German Shepherd Movement

[Santo66]

Perhaps the main reason for the seperation is the breeders mentioned by Pepe, these were breeders who did not work within the system - they needed dogs for just one purpose, security, that was where the money was. Hence the introduction of the high prey drive. These are dogs not suited to community living. Instead they are a dog for the specialist owner, those who want the high prey sports or security work, fine as long as these dogs are not sold into family homes, but this is not the case. The GSD regardless of their breeding is sold to whoever has the money.

They were defence driven dogs Neville Williams bred.......high prey drive didn't come into Australia much until the importing of Kuran van Tiekerhook with the desire of some for extremes, prey on top of prey and line bred on prey started to create some hectic dogs with drive imbalances, but prey driven dogs of a balanced character are ok in family homes......I have 2 working line GSD's and a Malinois X Dutch Shepherd snoozing on the floor here :D It's more the speed at which they go into drive and the length of time they sustain drive is the difference I think.

[lovemesideways]

I think GSDs are just brilliant. Finding that combination of different traits in a dog is to me, not really seen elsewhere outside this breed. The dog who can do a bit of everything, babysit the foster kittens, throw himself into Obedience with 110%, and still protect me, guard my house and make sure that any intruder has a very bad time. Then after making sure that everything is alright, he turns into a total goof who loves a belly rub, plays bitey face with his bro and will happily sucker you into giving him some of your dinner :laugh:

It makes me sad to see the unhealthy showline dogs, but its worse still when all GSDs get placed in the same lot. There are quite a few wonderful GSDs, I happen to have two (not even a little biased :D ) and I have seen/heard of others. My boy has I think 1/4 showline in him, so hes not even straight working line. Showline shouldn't mean no working ability, thats unfair to the breed.

My breeder, Christine Anderson says it wonderfully.

"The essence of a GSD is NOBILITY and true nobility is not what a dog looks like but the very heart and soul of the dog, the inner being of the animal itself and its attitude to all before it. To match the dog in the area of breeding one needs to grasp that nobility in both hands and then with a humble approach, retain and steer the future generations of GSDs to ensure the dog remains what it truly is, the greatest, gracious and most noble canine in the world."

Working line doesn't mean bad family pet, its all about teaching your dog where and when to use their drive. Roscoe has extreme drive, but has been taught life skills and manners :)

Plus I adore him and I think the feeling is mutual

Edited August 9, 2013 by lovemesideways

[pepe001]

I agree with you entirely, LMS. They are a wonderful breed and I have met many great GSDs from both camps. Plus your Roscoe is truly lovely.

I have had the please of owning a rescue GSD (but he came with papers so I also got to meet his breeder and parents) and one DDR (who died of old age a couple of years ago) and cared for an ex police dog after he retired (he was show-line and a great dog) and also care for two breeding bitches in their retirement. All have been very different dogs and all special in their own way.

[bianca.a]

I agree with you too LMS. My bitch is showlines mixed with working lines. My male is 100% WL and unfortunately due to bad luck (great breeder who did all health checks going back generations) my pup has severe hip dysplasia. He had his first total hip replacement in Feb and will more than likely need the other side done next year. He has the perfect temperament and aside from the health issues (numerous) I couldn't ask for a better dog.

And just because he is beautiful to boot!

[Akayla]

Well said LMS :) It shouldn't matter what group the dog falls under. I have to admit owning WL dogs first I wasn't expecting the temp. I got with my SL bitch. She taught me to see the bigger picture of the GSD.

I was one of those people who thought SL's were wrong but i now consider myself better educated. Good breeders breed good dogs. Dogs that are within the standard. That give the breed a good image. That are healthy. That can do the job.

[Santo66]

Working line doesn't mean bad family pet, its all about teaching your dog where and when to use their drive. Roscoe has extreme drive, but has been taught life skills and manners

A GSD is a working dog period and the world's most versatile from a companion animal to protection or service dog any anything else in between, the second best breed at everything is what a GSD is supposed to be. A working line GSD is simply an ancestry line where working traits have been prioritised and preserved in the breeding where a show line is an ancestry line that has conformation amongst other aspects prioritised above working traits......a working line GSD is generally closer to the breed standards in temperament and character than the majority of show line dog's ultimately though, if a working line GSD is unsuitable for a pet for some people, a GSD is the wrong breed for them as watered down versions of the breed are not true GSD's.

Not all show lines lack working ability either especially the ancestry on the old herding lines which are still tan and black saddle show line appearance, even West German show lines there are breeders who do maintain workable drives although less common than working lines.

[Jed]

But surely it cannot be correct for the dogs to have sickle hocks?

Sickle hocks is an Excessive angulation of the hock joints This is a weakness, becaue the angle of the joint is decreased, thus placing the plantar aspect of the hock under great stress, particularly the plantar ligament. A dog with sickle hocks is thus predisposed to strain and sprain of the soft tissue support structures on the plantar hock region.

Nearly every dog photo uploaded here shows sickle hocks.

The point of the hock should be in line with the point of the buttock and the rear aspect of the lower leg should form a straight line with the hock and point of buttock.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Jed

[Red Fox]

The GSD clubs, at least the one in Vic anyway, are working towards designing a better test of working ability/temperament - plenty of things go on behind the scenes. There are people passionate about the breed who want and strive for the best of both worlds. There is a new working line male soon to hit Aus that is beautifully constructed and I imagine will be well used amongst the show and working breeders alike.

What is wrong with the ORIGINAL test?

Oh I forgot, the ANKC don't support it..

[Santo66]

The GSD clubs, at least the one in Vic anyway, are working towards designing a better test of working ability/temperament - plenty of things go on behind the scenes. There are people passionate about the breed who want and strive for the best of both worlds. There is a new working line male soon to hit Aus that is beautifully constructed and I imagine will be well used amongst the show and working breeders alike.

What is wrong with the ORIGINAL test?

Oh I forgot, the ANKC don't support it..

The GSDCA don't support the original test probably because the dogs they breed won't pass it aside from they are too lazy to train a dog to that level would account for most of it. They claim that the original test is perceived as attack training promoting the breed as potentially dangerous dogs.......now they need to tell the ANKC that the original test weeds out the dangerous dogs, show them the SV book and comply with it. I can just imagine all the "Australian Champion" show dogs dropping from hero to zero when they are deregistered when failing the breed temperament and character test

At the minimum, there is nothing stopping them passing the BH, tracking and obedience phase which would be better the nothing test they have now

Edited August 11, 2013 by Santo66

[ish]

The GSD clubs, at least the one in Vic anyway, are working towards designing a better test of working ability/temperament - plenty of things go on behind the scenes. There are people passionate about the breed who want and strive for the best of both worlds. There is a new working line male soon to hit Aus that is beautifully constructed and I imagine will be well used amongst the show and working breeders alike.

What is wrong with the ORIGINAL test?

Oh I forgot, the ANKC don't support it..

There's nothing wrong with it and I'd love for it to be a prerequisite here as it is in Germany - but I don't make the rules. Obviously I meant a better test than what is currently being done

[Santo66]

The GSD clubs, at least the one in Vic anyway, are working towards designing a better test of working ability/temperament - plenty of things go on behind the scenes. There are people passionate about the breed who want and strive for the best of both worlds. There is a new working line male soon to hit Aus that is beautifully constructed and I imagine will be well used amongst the show and working breeders alike.

What is wrong with the ORIGINAL test?

Oh I forgot, the ANKC don't support it..

There's nothing wrong with it and I'd love for it to be a prerequisite here as it is in Germany - but I don't make the rules. Obviously I meant a better test than what is currently being done

It's a shame more members don't have your view Ish to have the numbers to make change. The BH is as good a test as any which is the companion animal test that will certainly weed out unstable dogs and isn't too hard to train for and is the official breed entrance test to qualify for the full regime.

[YippeeGirl]

I am a German Shepherd owner and I have to say that the current breed survey test (at least the one I have seen here in Melbourne) is laughable. Your dog would have to be practically deranged to fail it (I'm not talking about the conformation aspect although that too makes me roll my eyes) and I really don't see how passing it is any indication your dog deserves to be bred.

A dog that is being walked around a suburban street runs into more testing situations than that every day.

I have show bred dogs and have been to shows before, and it saddens me to see how a breed that is supposed to be working dog first and foremost, can have individuals out there whose only achievement is that they were born with good conformation (often highly subjective in itself) and can gait around a ring.

I always say if every dog in that show ring then had to go and perform in an obedience/agility phase afterwards, many would probably fare quite badly.

I love German Shepherds and it does hurt me to see how many people have a bad opinion of them. I agree that just because a dog is 'straight-backed' and 'old-style' (from what I have seen online this often seems to mean oversized and of poor colouring) doesn't mean it deserves to be bred either.

Form should always follow function. I believe at some point this was what conformation classes were originally intended for. However, it seems that in many breeds there is now a divide between those dogs that can work and those dogs that can show.

Some days I can understand why many of the dog owning public think show people are a breed of their own!

[Akayla]

The GSD clubs, at least the one in Vic anyway, are working towards designing a better test of working ability/temperament - plenty of things go on behind the scenes. There are people passionate about the breed who want and strive for the best of both worlds. There is a new working line male soon to hit Aus that is beautifully constructed and I imagine will be well used amongst the show and working breeders alike.

What is wrong with the ORIGINAL test?

Oh I forgot, the ANKC don't support it..

There's nothing wrong with it and I'd love for it to be a prerequisite here as it is in Germany - but I don't make the rules. Obviously I meant a better test than what is currently being done

It's a shame more members don't have your view Ish to have the numbers to make change. The BH is as good a test as any which is the companion animal test that will certainly weed out unstable dogs and isn't too hard to train for and is the official breed entrance test to qualify for the full regime.

Back when I used to show there used to be quite a few breeders who would support it and there was enquiries made. I cant remember exactly what happened but I believe it was politicians that made it quite clear what would happen to those dogs that were trained. Not the gsd people. Thats in my town anyway.

[megan_]

It is only Victoria that has "outlawed" protection training (ie a dog is automatically declared dangerous if it has had the training). That shouldn't stop dogs in other states?

Even without protection training, a dog could still prove its working ability with obedience and tracking.

[Akayla]

Personally I like the test. Which is why I had asked my dogs breeders about it and started a big discussion about why the idea had bombed. Dont quote me but I think it was along the lines of IF people started training large numbers of dogs like that there would be a push to put restrictions on ghose dogs and other states had different rules etc. My memory is terrible but what stuck with me was the general anger and upset by breeders that they could not train their dogs in such a traditional manner. I dont think they wanted to make it the test but rather run it so people had the option.

[Aidan3]

The dog on the right seems a little short for the standard to me. What do you guys reckon?

Nice straight back, though.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Aidan2

[Alyosha]

But surely it cannot be correct for the dogs to have sickle hocks?

Sickle hocks is an Excessive angulation of the hock joints This is a weakness, becaue the angle of the joint is decreased, thus placing the plantar aspect of the hock under great stress, particularly the plantar ligament. A dog with sickle hocks is thus predisposed to strain and sprain of the soft tissue support structures on the plantar hock region.

Nearly every dog photo uploaded here shows sickle hocks.

The point of the hock should be in line with the point of the buttock and the rear aspect of the lower leg should form a straight line with the hock and point of buttock.

Thanks Jed.

I keep waiting for some GSD folks to discuss or answer the cow & sickle hock questions... The banana back thing is odd yes but the hock structure seems even more concerning. And as part of the initial question of this thread it has been remarkably overlooked...

[Podengo]

I hate to bring up Pedigree dogs exposed, but if you watch that (which can you do on youtube) about 7.5 minutes in there is what I expect people are talking about, with the wobbly hocks on GSDs.... Just so we're all on the same page....

BTW, am finding this all very interesting - thanks all that are contributing!

Edited August 12, 2013 by DiscoDobe

[ish]

But surely it cannot be correct for the dogs to have sickle hocks?

Sickle hocks is an Excessive angulation of the hock joints This is a weakness, becaue the angle of the joint is decreased, thus placing the plantar aspect of the hock under great stress, particularly the plantar ligament. A dog with sickle hocks is thus predisposed to strain and sprain of the soft tissue support structures on the plantar hock region.

Nearly every dog photo uploaded here shows sickle hocks.

The point of the hock should be in line with the point of the buttock and the rear aspect of the lower leg should form a straight line with the hock and point of buttock.

Thanks Jed.

I keep waiting for some GSD folks to discuss or answer the cow & sickle hock questions... The banana back thing is odd yes but the hock structure seems even more concerning. And as part of the initial question of this thread it has been remarkably overlooked...

There is a really interesting article by Louis Donald which includes

discussion about toplines and hocks that you might be interested in reading

http://www.gsdcouncilaustralia.org/louis_donald_article.pdf

[blakkjackal]

This might interest some of you. Of course that is only a very generalised picture as you can only include so many dogs but it should get the point across.