What Would You Do?

[LOLAFOLATA]

Our 2yo Mastiff girl, Daisy-Mae is a real "reggie reject", and has been since we purchased her at 16wks. She has chronic fear issues (no aggression), hip & elbow dysplasia with arthritis and has recently partially torn a cruciate. No point in breeder contact, she was byb (don't need flaming for this either as I've paid & still paying for mistake - big time!!!)

A few months ago we lost our 2 oldies in quick succession and she ended up completely lost as they were her guides and security. She became very depressed and went completely backwards in the progress we'd made with the fear. Vets and breeders advised at the time that it was best not to introduce another dog and develop her bond with me. I undertook this and, subsequently, I had a new shadow. With us all working and her being left alone all day, I felt she really was in need of canine companionship. She was also starting to growl (a guarding instinct I think) when other family members came into rooms I was in with her. It wasn't aggression, more just her insecurity and confusion as to how to react and was always corrected.

I was getting some pressure from family that Dais really needed a friend so 3 weeks ago, I adopted a 11mnth MastiffXBulldog male from local pound. They hit it off straight away and hence in her excitement to play, did the cruciate. She has been confined inside since. Leroy has turned out to be a bit of a disaster too now. Typical young dog purchased as cute puppy and now a giant nuisance that ended in pound. Walks and training aren't mellowing "destructo dog". I'm sure if they could be outside together both would settle and I may end up with some backyard left.

My dilemma is, I don't want to risk the cruciate rupturing completely. With all her other issues, and the inability for us to undertake the post-op care and confinement for 6-12 weeks (or more), surgery isn't an option. Even our vet is in agreeance on this. As last throw of dice, I am going to try alternate therapies on her (acupuncture etc). My only other option is to re-home Leroy and keep Daisy-Mae as our single "cotton-wool canine". He really is a sweet boy with a great temperament - just full on!!! My concern for him is, being a boisterous 40 something kg bull breed (and growing)he will bounce around from home to home or end up in wrong hands and be ruined. I would also feel pretty guilty inflicting him on someone else.

I've always kept my canine mistakes - and there's been a few over the years. Also feel I have an obligation, as my first priorty, to protect Daisy-Mae and give her some quality of life - no matter how short (she won't make old bones).

It's a hard one

[Christina]

Your dog is only young & having a dog companion is probably the best thing for her IMO. One that is confident & she may follow the others dogs lead more & cling to you less.

She is going to cling to something so its better its another dog. She will be happier too.

Leroy will probably settle down out of the boisterous pup stage with some training, especially when his excitement wears down. While they are seperated take the time to work with Leroy on some training & give him time, 3 weeks is no time for him to learn the rules.

Would have been better for you to go for an older dog that was more sedate but you have Leroy now so why not see what you can do with him.

If they like each other & he is good natured that is a great start & she could have buggered up her leg in any way really from the sound of things.

She is only 2 so its a long life without a friend & her having issues being the only dog.

[megan_]

I don't know the answer to your question, but this rang alarm bells for me:

She was also starting to growl (a guarding instinct I think) when other family members came into rooms I was in with her. It wasn't aggression, more just her insecurity and confusion as to how to react and was always corrected.

Growling is a warning. It means "stop that or I'm going to bite". You can't say that it isn't aggression. It could be caused by resource guarding (she sees you as her resource and doesn't want others to come near) or fear aggression (it is common for fearful dogs to resort to aggression once they get comfortable somewhere - I know, I have a FA dog who showed no signs of aggression at all for 18 months, then charged at a child and realised that it worked).

Personally, in your situation, I would rehome the other dog and get a reputable behaviourist to help you deal with her fear issues. As one fearful dog owner to another, fear CAN rear its head as aggression very suddenly and apparently "out of the blue". Correcting her may be helping her, but it also may be reinforcing her fear. She is a strong, powerful dog - it will only take one incident to end badly.

ETA: If I was picking a companion for a fearful dog, I would get a confident, mature, nerves-of-steal dog. I would actually get a behaviourist to help me select them and I certainly wouldn't get them from the pound (because you won't see their true colours there).

Edited November 11, 2013 by megan_

[fbaudry]

Completely agree with Megan....

Growling is her way to tell you she is clearly uncomfortable about something. You really need to see a behaviourist vet (not some random "trainer") to work in her issues.

Correcting her growling is the worse thing to do IMO. You are suppressing her warning signals and could end up with a dog that bite "out of the blue "

[lululove]

In regards to the cruciate rupturing – have you tried hydrotherapy?

It has worked wonder for my pup to the point that she didn’t need surgery anymore.

[LOLAFOLATA]

I don't know the answer to your question, but this rang alarm bells for me:

She was also starting to growl (a guarding instinct I think) when other family members came into rooms I was in with her. It wasn't aggression, more just her insecurity and confusion as to how to react and was always corrected.

Growling is a warning. It means "stop that or I'm going to bite". You can't say that it isn't aggression. It could be caused by resource guarding (she sees you as her resource and doesn't want others to come near) or fear aggression (it is common for fearful dogs to resort to aggression once they get comfortable somewhere - I know, I have a FA dog who showed no signs of aggression at all for 18 months, then charged at a child and realised that it worked).

Personally, in your situation, I would rehome the other dog and get a reputable behaviourist to help you deal with her fear issues. As one fearful dog owner to another, fear CAN rear its head as aggression very suddenly and apparently "out of the blue". Correcting her may be helping her, but it also may be reinforcing her fear. She is a strong, powerful dog - it will only take one incident to end badly.

ETA: If I was picking a companion for a fearful dog, I would get a confident, mature, nerves-of-steal dog. I would actually get a behaviourist to help me select them and I certainly wouldn't get them from the pound (because you won't see their true colours there).

Completely agree with Megan....

Growling is her way to tell you she is clearly uncomfortable about something. You really need to see a behaviourist vet (not some random "trainer") to work in her issues.

Correcting her growling is the worse thing to do IMO. You are suppressing her warning signals and could end up with a dog that bite "out of the blue "

Appreciate your concern on the "aggression". Have had 3 behaviourists assess & assist me with her. We also were going to training classes until the cruciate. This dog has been pushed to limits that a dog with a stable temperament wouldn't have tolerated and not looked like biting. Our vet has said it's been her only saving grace otherwise, she would have been euthanased well before now. This is why, though I am not undertaking further surgery. Combining with excessive pain and discomfort could tip her over the edge.

Christina,

I feel the same about her being happy in the company of another canine. Leroy wasn't the greatest choice. I did want to get an older dog but family thought with all her medical issues and the possibility of having another aging big dog I could be in for double trouble - yet again.

Leeli,

Would love to be have access to hydrotherapy. Amazing that a city like Canberra doesn't have this kind of service available. Closest is 1-2hr trek up the Hume Highway.

[Rebanne]

I am going to be the hard head and say I would PTS Daisy Mae. She is going to be in pain, both mental and physical, for the rest of her life. How fair is that? Give her some peace now.

[lovemesideways]

Call in a professional.

I would contact Steve Courtney from K9 Pro http://www.k9pro.com.au/

Speak with him and see what your options are.

[LOLAFOLATA]

I am going to be the hard head and say I would PTS Daisy Mae. She is going to be in pain, both mental and physical, for the rest of her life. How fair is that? Give her some peace now.

Rebanne, respect your call. At the moment she is happy in our home and not in serious discomfort. I would love a better life for her and if she could get out with Leroy, she'd be the proverbial happy pig.

Should the alternate therapy not help and/or the cruciate ruptures I won't hesitate in giving her her wings.

[Diva]

Should the alternate therapy not help and/or the cruciate ruptures I won't hesitate in giving her her wings.

As you are based in the Canberra region and open to alternative therapies, I would suggest a consult with Capital Animal Physiotherapy. A friend of mine is having great success with them for her dog, it has made a huge difference to her mobility. They even coped easily with the dog being terrified of vets and reactive to pain after having had a lot of it to deal with in her life, and she now accepts the physio very readily. I went along to one treatment and they seemed very capable and frank. Worth a shot for the cruciate?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Diva

[Jumabaar]

I agree with Diva- look into some physiotherapy that might mean that she can go back to running freely and will also keep her more comfortable with the HD, ED and eventual arthritis. I get exercises to do at home as well as during the actual session with the physio and have really seen a difference.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Jumabaar

[LOLAFOLATA]

Should the alternate therapy not help and/or the cruciate ruptures I won't hesitate in giving her her wings.

As you are based in the Canberra region and open to alternative therapies, I would suggest a consult with Capital Animal Physiotherapy. A friend of mine is having great success with them for her dog, it has made a huge difference to her mobility. They even coped easily with the dog being terrified of vets and reactive to pain after having had a lot of it to deal with in her life, and she now accepts the physio very readily. I went along to one treatment and they seemed very capable and frank. Worth a shot for the cruciate?

I agree with Diva- look into some physiotherapy that might mean that she can go back to running freely and will also keep her more comfortable with the HD, ED and eventual arthritis. I get exercises to do at home as well as during the actual session with the physio and have really seen a difference.

Thanks Diva,

I have made initial appointment with Kambah practice for this Saturday. Will be talking acupuncture, physio, homeopathy & herbal remedies (may help fear too). Will keep Capital Animal Physiotherapy in mind though. Are they in Fyshwick?

I am keen on physio. Have watched some physio exercises for cruciate post op on youtube but think I need to be shown by expert before I attempt any.

[Diva]

Will keep Capital Animal Physiotherapy in mind though. Are they in Fyshwick?

I am keen on physio. Have watched some physio exercises for cruciate post op on youtube but think I need to be shown by expert before I attempt any.

Used to be in Fyshwick, but they now practise out of a couple of spots around town on an as needed basis, so whichever is close to you. I think one of the principles is actually based in Bungendore. Pretty sure the person I saw was a fully trained human physio first and still does that as well as animals. She was really very good.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Diva

[Pepper21]

Aww dear. I feel your pain. One of mine just recovered from a collateral tear (plus both cruciates). My advice is supplement the crap out of her. Mine is on Rose hip and it seems to be quite good. Another option is Orthopet (http://www.dogsinmotion.com.au/portfolio/custom-orthotics-and-prosthetics/). They're not cheap (it was ~$1000 for my husky), and my dog luckily didn't need it, but I've heard rave reviews about them. Keeping both dogs separate with a baby gate is also advisable, to prevent any play mishaps. Swimming might be a good idea for your new pup as well, to tire him out so he's not so full on with Daisy-Mae.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I think I'd rehome Leroy as your first dog - the one you must also put first - is going to have ongoing issues.

You might be able to keep the cruciate going along but not if you've got a large and strong young dog that is going to keep causing issues.

If you'd fostered him you'd be rehoming him, at least this way you have the opportunity to learn a bit about him and his needs and find the right spot.

You could then get a much calmer dog that wouldn't bump her legs or induce her to go crazy.

I speak from experience - I have an older dog with cruciate issues, he's not allowed to go off lead - ever.

I can't keep a very playful foster dog for long if he and that dog go crazy playing because my old boy ends up limping, back in the vets having treatment.

[kelpiecuddles]

We are coming in to the warmer months, is there a lake or similar that you could take Daisy to and swim with her? If you can use a life jacket on her and take her out deep enough to get her feet just off the bottom that can be a great DIY hydrotherapy option.

Apart from that if you want to keep Leroy I'd train the hell out of him, especially focusing on calming behaviours.

[Staffyluv]

If I was in your position, I would be giving Dais the rest she needs and only doing stuff with the behaviourist, so it isn't so full on.

The rest of the time, I would be spending time with Leroy on training - maybe sign him up at the Queanbeyan obedience club, they can help with loads of training issues and a few of the advanced trainers will spend extra time with you, if you ask for help.

Steve Courtney has already been suggested (Zig and I are off to see him on Friday and I can't wait).

It has only been a few weeks - some 'foster dogs' take at least 3 weeks to start to get the house rules and some take longer. I would give Leroy a chance, if he is a nice dog. Give him some training, set some boundaries and give him some time (he is still really young and they do settle down in time)..

It does sound like you have your hands full and only you know what you are capable of handling under the circumstances.

I wish we had a pool here that we could let the dogs swim in..

[hankdog]

Can you see if Leroy can go to a good rescue, one where the foster carer can give him some training and then get him into a selected home. Sounds like you're going to have your hands full for a while and maybe it's better to rehome him now whilst he's still a pup and before he develops some issues. He's going to be a big dog and might be tough to rehome later.

[RuralPug]

Lola F, your basic problem seems to be time as you are working full time.

Putting the effort into training Leroy so his energy is constructively directed will need two good 20 minute minimum walks per day plus a couple of 10-15 minute training sessions per day and probably a group obedience lesson a week ( to socialise him and train you).

Daisy needs time as well - time to take her to hydro, ideally daily but at least twice a week. You don't need a speciality therapy place after the first time - once you see it done any large enough body of water will do. Also try to think of ingenious training which she can learn while resting - maybe food puzzles or modified scent discrimination for example to keep her brain busy while her body rests.

If you can find the time to train Leroy, keep him and he will be a great asset and a friend for Daisy, plus you won't be entirely bereft of dog love if it seems best to give Daisy her wings. If you can't find or make the time, then perhaps you can foster him until a rescue finds a forever home that does have the time, which might be the only guarantee of survival for him as there are not that many homes available for his type.

While Daisy is on enforced crate rest indoors, provided you can find the time to exercise and train Leroy, then it is no hardship for him to also be on indoor crate rest to keep Daisy company indoors. If you can manage to move the crates back and forth, then Daisy could sometimes be on crate rest outdoors while Leroy is out.

Only you can decide if you can find the time for these things. Altogether, you will probably need to find an extra hour or two each day (in bits and pieces) for probably two or three months. Once Leroy has been trained to your satisfaction he would only need the 40 minutes of exercise daily and 10 -15 minutes reinforcement training twice a week. Once Daisy's rest is over and she is clear of further problems, she could accompany Leroy on the walks and have her own 10 -15 minutes reinforcement training once a week.

If her cruciate doesn't heal completely then she will still appreciate a companion, just make sure that they do not romp outdoors together - one is always leashed or crated when they are both outdoors and actively discourage indoor romping.

It will work out if you can find the training time/commitment at the beginning. If that is not possible with your lifestyle, then seek to rehome Leroy. No one can decide what is right for your situation but you, we can only offer suggestions. Best of luck!

[persephone]

sounds like too many/too MUCH dog for the time/energy you have to spare, sadly I have no suggestions, as I am not you ... however , there would only be one of these dogs at my place ;)

Hope it all works out.....