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Blackdog10

Labrador Hip Score

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Hi I've recently put a deposit on a Labrador and I checked with them what the hip scores were of the parents - over the phone they said 0:3 & 0:1 with elbows 0:0& 0:0. Then I found somewhere else on an old post they were 2:7 & 1:4. Still 0:0& 0:0 as hips.

I don't know anything about this hip stuff other than the closer to zero and the more even the better but wondering if this is a problem? I am going to be paying a lot for the puppy I want to make sure it is quality. Can anyone shed any light on this?

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aliwake   

I'd be more concerned about why they gave you the wrong information. Ask them to send you copies of the certificates, or if you're close enough to visit, ask to see the originals.

2:7 seems a touch high, but is still under the breed average.

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Thanks. I was concerned about that too. I have emailed them and just asked them straight up why they told me different figures over the phone, especially since they had posted it elsewhere a few years earlier. I also asked for papers, just seems rather weird for them to do that so I'll see what they say I just wanted someone else's opinion on it.

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While hip scores are important and the 2:7 is not ideal because of the difference between hips I think you need to be careful that you do not get bogged down with hip scores. I've known of dogs with awful hips that have a sire and dam with scored of 0:0. There are just so many factors with HD.There are many other factors that are equally or more important in my opinion. It would be of concern that you were given two different scores for the same dog but this could also be a case of a genuine mistake. The response you receive may give you a better idea of what you are dealing with. Ask to see the official score sheet to clarify.

At the end of the day if you are not 110% happy with what you have been told walk away and find another breeder/pup.

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And I'd also say that if you've had a few bitches over the years it's really easy to stuff up that sort of info. I'm breeding my first litter and, for some inexplicable reason, I had it in my mind that the colour genetics for the sire were one way when in fact they weren't. In my case it wasn't a misunderstanding (I studied genetics at Uni) - it just got stuck in my head that way.

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Bjelkier   

And I'd also say that if you've had a few bitches over the years it's really easy to stuff up that sort of info. I'm breeding my first litter and, for some inexplicable reason, I had it in my mind that the colour genetics for the sire were one way when in fact they weren't. In my case it wasn't a misunderstanding (I studied genetics at Uni) - it just got stuck in my head that way.

This is true of me as well recently. Being so tired having a litter of 7 on the ground I misquoted the sires hip scores (he's not my dog) and made them higher than they truly are.

Just ask to see the official paperwork. And as another poster said. Don't get bogged down in numbers. HD is a difficult one to deal with as there are so many factors that have to be taken into consideration. I've known a number of breeders who have used very low scored dogs, only to get high scored puppies.

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Great thanks, they said that they got another x-ray again before this litter as part of the breeding requirement and the scores were better, they said it is interpretation of the person doing it and they were dissapointed at the 2013 scores but accepted it as they were still under the average but they were happy with these ones and they are more in line with the percentage of the dam and the sire. I'm getting a copy of the paperwork when I visit again. They seem like really lovely genuine people and the dogs seem very happy and healthy with great temperament, I feel like I trust them. I guess I'm just nervous and making sure I do the right thing as I'm new to all of this and it is my first puppy (i had dogs growing up but I wasn't responsible for them etc). It's a bit daunting as I don't want to make a mistake and want to make sure I'm getting a healthy puppy and then give him the best start at a long healthy life with me.

Edited by Blackdog10

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sheena   

I have often wondered if it is more important to look at the health of past litters of the breeding dogs, to see how they shape up as they grow more so than relying on hip scores. I guess this all comes down to getting to know the breeder. The breeder of my last BC doesn't hip score. But the parents obviously had good hips as was proven by the sports & activities they are involved in without any physical problems.

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And don't forget - the site and dam may have excellent hip scores but if you let your pup jump and bound up and down steps excessively - you could be causing arthritis/dysphasia all on your own.

Ernie's parents both have very low hip/elbow scores but his breeder warned me against letting him jog with the girls; leap into and out of the car boot; jump on and off hard surfaces and race up and down staurs until he was at least a year old.

Edited to say: Actually, you DOLers did too.

Edited by Stressmagnet

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Rebanne   

I have often wondered if it is more important to look at the health of past litters of the breeding dogs, to see how they shape up as they grow more so than relying on hip scores. I guess this all comes down to getting to know the breeder. The breeder of my last BC doesn't hip score. But the parents obviously had good hips as was proven by the sports & activities they are involved in without any physical problems.

Not always. I never bred my GSD with the most horrible hips but she titled in obedience, agility and did an ET. And agility was back in the days of very high jumps and two clear rounds to qualify. Muscle support helped her greatly. Only xrayed her when she was 6, lived to 11.

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Bjelkier   

I have often wondered if it is more important to look at the health of past litters of the breeding dogs, to see how they shape up as they grow more so than relying on hip scores. I guess this all comes down to getting to know the breeder. The breeder of my last BC doesn't hip score. But the parents obviously had good hips as was proven by the sports & activities they are involved in without any physical problems.

Not always. I never bred my GSD with the most horrible hips but she titled in obedience, agility and did an ET. And agility was back in the days of very high jumps and two clear rounds to qualify. Muscle support helped her greatly. Only xrayed her when she was 6, lived to 11.

I know a dog (won't mention breed but it's known for HD) who is an amazing mover, very agile, never been lame a day in it's life and this dog has one of the worst scores I've ever seen in the breed. And yet there are dogs with perfect scores that can't move to save themselves, always pulling up lame etc. Good movement doesn't always mean good hips.

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I have often wondered if it is more important to look at the health of past litters of the breeding dogs, to see how they shape up as they grow more so than relying on hip scores. I guess this all comes down to getting to know the breeder. The breeder of my last BC doesn't hip score. But the parents obviously had good hips as was proven by the sports & activities they are involved in without any physical problems.

All Border Collies used for breeding, should be hip and elbow scored and good breeders have been doing them for over 20 years. A fit dog with dodgy hips will often show no symptoms. It is when the dog gets older and loses fitness that the problems start to show. I have seen the hip x-ray of a Golden that scored 53:53 for hips. The worst possible score. At the time she was scored she was a top winning show dog, well known for her lovely movement. On the x-ray she had flat plates, instead of ball and socket joints. So watching them move is often no indication of what the hips are like.

As the OP question. Verify why the scores you were given are different. It may be a genuine mistake. A score of 2:7 is still fine to breed, specially to a lower score and the odd numbers are usually caused by an injury.

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Hip scores confuse me. I've known dogs with bad scores live long healthy lives and dogs with good scores suffer arthritis.

While I think it's worth scoring, I think the Labrador community is far too hung up on striving for the 0:0. In my experience, dogs with 7's and 8's are usually a-symptomatic throughout their lifetime and it's absurd to regard them as defective..

Because hip and elbow scores are the most conspicuous health data published by breeders, they seem to take on very great importance. This is especially problematic because it is well known that scores can vary considerably with positioning, and with who does the interpretation.

Yes, there are Labs who need surgery, and because there are a lot of Labs around, most vets have seen a Lab or several with serious hip problems.

Krontfeldt's PhD work showed that "HD did not have a large affect on the longevity of Labrador Retrievers or Irish Wolfhounds. Serious and moderate degrees of HD increased the risk of symptoms such as limping and hip pain and these symptoms occurred earliest in Newfoundlands. The Labrador Retriever was the breed in which symptoms appeared latest in life." See, eg., (http://www.nvh.no/en/Home/News/News-stories/A-number-of-environmental-factors-can-affect-the-incidence-of-hip-dysplasia-in-dogs/

Ie, except in extreme cases, radiographic HD causes old age arthritis . . . not nice . . . but not more serious in the swing of things than allergic conditions or IBD. Something a good number of us will suffer in later life.

Edited by sandgrubber

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