Erny Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 (edited) I had a German Shepherd ... was epileptic. After he would have a fit/seizure he would sometimes not be himself afterwards. There was a couple of times I approached him after a seizure and he would not remember me... it would seriously take a while for him to come good after a seizure. He even growled and snapped at me a few times. It broke my heart but I never hit him. Deanne .... . This thread is NOT about a dog who was not in its right mind. Heavens to betsies - that's a completely different scenario/situation altogether, and I'm somewhat amazed that you, as a 'psychologist' (even only a human one) could even compare the two situations. And, although OT, in epileptic seizures, it's not even about "not remembering you", it's about "not knowing what they do" - they are disorientated, phased out and forget themselves I found an injured kitten (5 weeks old) a month or so ago in my front yard. ... I realised I could not keep her as I did not have the time to properly look after her. I wanted Smokey to have a good home and a good life. Again, a poor comparison. (A) A kitten. (B) A dog with poor/insufficient background and aggressive tendancies. As mentioned, finding someone who would want to take either of these dogs on would not be so easy, not to suggest that's what Scope should do. The moral to the story is do not take on more than you can handle. Scope didn't. But sometimes life changes outside of our control. I'm amazed that you can't see that Scope had a scarey moment from one of her dogs but that she is savvy enough to work towards a solution. She IS handling it. Surey you don't so easily advocate to run away (or get rid of) a commitment (and companion, such as are the dogs to Scope), because one has a raw moment? Scope has had her dogs for years and is making progress in training. One hitch - one moment of adrenaline rush and self-defence, and you say 'run away'? Is that how psychologists earn their money? IMO, Scope is capable of knowing when to say "enough" - in the meantime, I read her post as one needing a bit of support in a down moment. But then, I don't have the 'ticket' that says that means anything. Erny, I am not going to offer advice more than I already have... What advice? That she should apply "negative reinforcement"? What good is that if you can't or won't explain how you suggest that should and can be efficiently and effectively applied in a situation which involves aggression from a dog towards oneself? I think she needs to take the dog to a behavioural specialist. As mentioned, she has done and continues to do this. These dogs are complexly problematic. It will not 'fix' overnight. I am not a specialist on dogs and have never claimed to be ... And yet you sat in judgement on the 'treatment' meted out to the dog that bit Scope? AND you suggested that "negative reinforcement" be applied? (My question to you, as above, remains open, although I note that on a couple of posts you have mentioned you won't be returning here, so I presume there will be no response from you on this.) I guess I could ask you to show me a person who specialises in canine behaviour to come and say that part of retraining a dogs behaviour is to punch it into line so it conforms... Perhaps you would be best to earn a degree in english, to accompany your psychologist degree. Re-read - Scope did not punch her dog to make it conform. She punched her dog because it aggressed on her. There is a huge difference. And I'm disappointed in your inability to recognise that despite your 'degree'. Given that you are a psychologist (as you so prominently displayed and professed), I am disappointed in your hastey, uncalled for and unqualified judgement of the OP. Edited June 23, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxSpots Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 K9: Hey! I thought I was the list bully! lol... I really think its time to put away the whip for a moment & not post if you have no good advice... which is severly lacking in this thread... Scope: Rotty has been living in a pen for most of the time he has been with me, for his own safety as well as everyone else's.. GSD was an inside dog when i got him, seemed to accept him OK... on K9-Force's suggestion, i've been leaving the rotty out of his pen so they both have full run of the back yard K9: Keep in mind that the advice was to get the Rott out of the cage, not run him with the GSD... But anyway... When I read this Scope: it took a few days for the heirachy disputes to settle and initially i would put the rotty back in his pen at dinner time, then let him out again about half an hour later... now i feed them separately but at the same time, they will both stay in a drop next to each other, focus on me, wait for however long i make them, recall to me (at the same time), then go eat their own dinner... there's no fights over food or anything and my relationship with the rotty has improved a great deal now that he has more freedom... i can do so many more things with him without him getting defensive... & i have been doing prey drive training with the rotty (will start with the shep later, one dog at a time is enough)... and it's also helped a lot with him.. K9: I might like to remind you that our motivation for rehabilitating & or training dogs comes from seeing results. Take a look at what you have achieved & not what you havent mastered just yet... Pat yourself on the back somewhere along the line for the results you have gained... the shepherd is the main problem here, she is starting to annoy the sh*t out of me, because every time i go outside (and i do try to spend a fair bit of time with them every day), she starts to whinge and whine and carry on, and snap at the rotty, who usually ignores her now... K9: whilst I have seen Hudson (Rott) I havent seen the GSD, but from what I can read, you have at the same time or there abouts, removed her from living inside, removed him from a pen, moved house (?) & a pack adjustment has taken place or is taking place... As you say that things have settled down with the two of them after hierachy disputes have now settled, it seems that they are headed in the right direction. When you enter the back yard the stakes have gone up & your seeing the end of the GSD trying to state her pack position, correcting him, demanding your attention etc... and i'm really not sure what to do because nothing i have tried so far seems to work... i try to give them both attention at the same time but the shepherd wont sit down and be happy to be patted, she has to keep harrasing the rotty... even if he wanders off elsewhere and she's the only one getting attention she still wants to keep annoying him... K9: This sounds like she is a Beta type, Alpha wanna be... This is natural behaviour for this type of dog & will not settle easily, but her demanding attention from you can be controlled with a little obedience training with a solid reward (pack drive reward) structure in place.. i can get her to drop next to me but she keeps whinging and sits there quivering and crying and wont shut up... K9: she will if she knows that when she has completed the task you will reward her with behaviour from you (ALPHA) that she finds rewarding... it's starting to annoy me because i can see myself losing my temper with her again, K9: having a program that you believe will work will put you in a less frustrated position & stop you loosing your temper... You havent emailed me at all with any questions, you should be aware that I will answer questions free to all clients & often those who are not clients with no limits.... ************************************************ General Info on hitting dogs.. Hitting your dog will not give you one percent of training advantage, it will however damge the bond & make your dog less respectful. I dont think its a tradgety as some here do, why? because Im faced woth people who do it all the time, even in front of me.. Why do people do it? Lack of knowledge, they dont have the answer to the problem in front of them, this created frustration, they hit the dog to release the tension, as Kit Kat explained... Experienced hitters? This is usually something that is again a mistake people make, they hit the dog once & the dog seemed to calm down, so they think they are on a winner... The dog was knocked out of drive & has only learned not to trigger drive in the presence of the owner... Thats all.. They havent stumbled on the cup of knowledge... When someone asks for help, which Scope clearly did, they already understand that the dont have all the answers, in this case, she knows she did the wrong thing & clearly explained that she knew it was wrong & wanted advice on how to help her dogs so that this mistake would not occur again... I think many have posted that it was a mistake, & Im sure that if Scope wasnt 100% sure that it was a mistake, she is now. So, I think that there have been more than enough negative comments about the incident, how about dropping it now? Or, I will respond to the future posts? great advice worth reading twice !! (getting lost in the fog) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 You have been given lots of good advice through the thread, just needs massive editing to remove the perfect people posts I am wondering how you walk the dogs since no one else has asked, it may be that separate walks may help. I am not suggesting that when you walk that you do anything more than that, maybe a stop and a sit under a tree and give a cuddle. I think that maybe in trying so very hard you have come to expect too much too soon from 2 rescues. You have become frustrated and upset so much that you are actually missing the wonderful things that are happening, like the feeding incident and that they are so good at meal times. Pat yourself on the back, give yourself credit where credit is due. If you have a bad day again then pm one of the people from the thread who have understood the situation and your cry for help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 This thread has gone through a cleanup. I think we all agree that hitting a dog is not to be condoned. Anybody who puts their 2 cents in about that aspect from this point on will be removed. (Find another forum if you want to preach to others how righteous you are) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Brilliant move to clean up...& leave the thought-provoking posts about a situation that could happen for any of us in a less than perfect world. The different opinions are really useful...(but getting personal is not!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 This thread has gone through a cleanup. I think we all agree that hitting a dog is not to be condoned.Anybody who puts their 2 cents in about that aspect from this point on will be removed. (Find another forum if you want to preach to others how righteous you are) Thank you Troy. That is a perfect resolution . No wonder they made you moderator! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Hey Scope, I hope you come back, I will miss you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 In a recent but earlier post here, I said (in context with a sentence I used) "Heavens to betsies". Now, I see from a locked thread that was asking where this thread had (temporarily, as it turns out) disappeared to, that this struck a note with some people? I'm just curious as to why and wondering if the answer might have been in a post or two that I didn't get to read and has since been deleted. Was it a biggie? Or have I simply raised a saying from the dark ages which perhaps some of you "young'ns" haven't heard of before? Oh - BTW Troy .... good clean up. Thank you, and thanks for returning the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 (edited) There were quite a few reference about your advanced years !! edited for missing rest of question: Heaven's to betsies started early this morning in another thread which has been pulled. No wonder you're confused Edited June 24, 2006 by BellasPerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 There were quite a few reference about your advanced years !! "Advanced years" ..... damn it! No way! I shall say that the saying was passed down to me from my Great Grandparents to my Grandparents to my Parents. OLD! Never! ..... well, eventually. ....... Well, sooner or later. Actually, sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 (edited) Heavens to Betsies = Jesus Christ, I would prefer Heaven to Betsies, I'm sure most would know what it means. Advanced years....Erny, I think I'm older than you. Is that passed down like the soup? I am glad this post didn't get deleted as this will be useful to lots of people. Lets just hope Scope comes back. Had extra letters. Edited June 24, 2006 by PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 I have not read the thread in its entirety, but having met Scope she loves her dogs..................but she is the first to admit both have problems. During a conversation with her, I admitted I would not be so forgiving as unless a dog fits into my criteria they are rehomed. Luckily I have labradors and touch wood aggression has been the least of my problems. Scope, I salute you for trying your best in rehabing your dogs!!! Venting to friends is what friendship is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 "Advanced years" ..... damn it! No way! I shall say that the saying was passed down to me from my Great Grandparents to my Grandparents to my Parents. OLD! Never! ..... well, eventually. ....... Well, sooner or later. Actually, sooner. Yeah well I'm not so young either and not so old . You will find Rugerfly solely to blame for being mocked . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Heaven to Betsies ... Is that passed down like the soup? No .... more like fine wine. BP: You will find Rugerfly solely to blame for being mocked. RF - Is this so? Or are you a scapegoat for the mockery accusation? Oh well .... not to matter. I could probably train the pants of many of the younger set and put them to shame as they wither with exhaustion. Anyway, at least I took the heat off Scope for a moment or two. Glad this thread seems to now be being read and respected for the worthwhile information and thoughts it contains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblyness Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 I recall a saying of Heavens to Mergatory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 It was Heavens to mergatroid, said by snagglepuss Snagglepuss <--click it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblyness Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Thanks HR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugerfly Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 twas me twas me.....was trying to cheer up a very uncheery thread.... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 It was Heavens to mergatroid, said by snagglepuss exit stage left ;) I adored snagglepuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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