samoyedman Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 any thoughts on this? I'm going to be rigorous with my adherence to alpha behaviour when I get my pup next week. I will be eating first, walking through the door first, and not patting/playing with him until he earns it. Then he will be rewarded in spades In keeping with the "Alpha program", a though occured to me. Might a pup/dog think we're subservient to them if they see us cleaning up their poo in the yard? They must think something about us cleaning up after them since they know its their waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 It's interesting that you mention this. I just finished reading a book called "Peple, Pooches & Problems" by Job Michael Evans. Whilst I do not agree with a lot of what is written in this book (physical "swatting" corrections & correcting after the fact, provided there is evidence), he does make an interesting point about alpha vs subservient postures. Seen by a dog, alpha postures are upright, shoulder back, etc, where subservient postures are seen as stooping (exactly as you put it when you scoop the poop). He suggests working on a firm sit-stay in order to be able to have control of your dog whilst you scoop the poop on walks, so you don't loose your alpha position, as well as implementing other "alpha tactics" that you mention, eat first etc. I have also read some people suggesting that if your pup soils in the house, that you remove them from the house whilst you clean it up, so they don't see you adopting a subservient posture. Definitely food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 My dogs see me picking up poo every day and it hasn't affected them at all. Really I'm all for training correctly and having well adjusted dogs, but there is a limit Training is all about patience, firmness and consistency and using plain common sense, if we all followed every rule suggested by the myriads of dog psychologists that have sprung up over recent years dealing with our canines would become so complex and regimented that none of us would have time for the most important thing......enjoying our dogs :cool: I have five dogs, I just don't have time to implement all these things and my dogs don't appear to suffer at all. I am a big advocate for NILIF and TOT, they're sensible programs and if you follow both you won't go far wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 There is being alpha & being over the top,i dont holler for the dogs to come out for poo patrol,the job has to be done & its done to often to worry about them watching. We dont do the eating first,door first stuff we just use commonsense & if the dog respects you it comes easy but be careful not to break the dogs spirit as each dog needs to be trained differently not a case of 1 book suits all. I see far to many dogs in boarding that are so overtrained & terrifiied of doing something wrong they have no dog personality left & that is very said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 I don't think it is a big deal - it has to be done! When I am on a walk and they go it is handy to put them in a drop while I clean it up, not because it is a subservient position, but so I don't trip over them while cleaning . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragondancer Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Anthropomorphism here, I think. I don't think dogs regard pooperscooping in the same way as people do. It does not have the cultural connotations to them that it does to us. (Mind you, they may be rather mystified as to why we do such an odd thing! <g>) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangerineDream Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Why not turn it into a training exercise.... I taught Tango that if I was out in the yard with the pooper scooper, then it was time for him to go to the toilet while I was already there........I made sure that I was there (on weekends anyway) at the times that he wanted to go (fortunately he has a very regular body clock)...it worked so well over time that now, if I want to take him out in the car I simply get the pooper scooper, wander aimlessly around the yard for 5 minutes and then pick up what he has just done and put an empty dog in the car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Anthropomorphism here, I think. I don't think dogs regard pooperscooping in the same way as people do. It does not have the cultural connotations to them that it does to us. (Mind you, they may be rather mystified as to why we do such an odd thing! <g>) Totally agree, I'm sure they have no idea what we are doing. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOE Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 mine like to help I scoop they smell then we all go to the bin then they all do another pressie for mummy its like a bit of a game I clean up they give me more thingys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Mine just stare at me from a distance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 My furball is very curious and used to come over with a furrowed brow and wonder what in the world I was doing! He's now used to my bizarre fascination with his poo and ignores me when I pick it up. I think he still respects me. He just thinks "well, whatever gets yer rocks off! But can we play ball afterwards?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong all these years! If I were any kind of dog person I would have taught them how to clean up their OWN poop!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornir Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Ellz I'll send James over, he usually sorts out the other doggies and cats poop, so you just have to clean up after him! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Samoyedman, your reading way too much into this.Take note of a Pack of wild Dogs and their behaviour if you want live lessons in Alpha or Top Dog behaviour. Tonymc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Ellz I'll send James over, he usually sorts out the other doggies and cats poop, so you just have to clean up after him! LOL COOL!! Hey, now THERE is a challenge for you. Instead of shaking hands with Michael....teach him how to shake hands with the pooper scoop! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flycow Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 interesting topic, and I'm sure there are people who had trained their dog to hold the plastic bag of their poopies in the yard or the park to bin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 (edited) I think you can carry the whole "Alpha" thing too far. Guide dogs are clearly in control much of the time but still work to direction. I think we all need to give dogs more credit for understanding how to deal with us than a simple "me Alpha, you Canine" relationship. Dogs know we ain't dogs. We can't be their "alpha" in dog pack terms. Our cross species relationship is different. Dogs respond to us the way we treat them. Treat them firm but fair and they'll respond with respect accordingly. Control what the dog values and the dog will value you. I've never bothered with the "through the door first" stuff provided my dogs didn't get in my way. They are allowed on the couch and sleep on the bed. They eat before I do because it suits my routine to do that. As Susan Clothier once said " the issue is not whether your dog is allowed on the couch but whether he'll get off it if you tell him to". I agree with some more dominant dogs that you may have to place firmer boundaries on what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. However, I think the whole "alpha" concept which was based on observation of zoo wolves is too rigid to account for the complexity of dog to dog AND dog to human relationships. Wild wolves have a clear pack leader but who takes charge of things can vary according to the skills of individuals within the pack. My dogs often watch me do poo patrol and like to add to the collection while I"m out there. I don't view poo patrol as "degrading my status" and I don't think the dogs understand the concept of "degrading" anyway. Edited October 3, 2006 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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