Golden With Allergies

[Bubitty]

Hi,

I need some input and advice before I go off to consult a second opinion.

Yesterday I took Bub to the vet for a C5. Vet examined Bub and said that he suffers from chronic allegries. Bub's hair near his but and penis and underarms is a redish/mauvish colour which the vet says is a sign of a dog with severe allergies.

Now Bub does not scratch in the house. He scratches when we let him out into the yard to pee. He will also lick himself every once in a while. He'll lick for a little while (say approx 3-5 mins) and then stop and move on to other things. I have always thought the licking was a grooming thing. Vet said that it was not normal for a dog to lick and that Bub is severely itchy. He sold us some antibiotic shampoo which I am to use to bath Bub. I am fine with this but vet said that Bub looks like he has severe allergies and will need ongoing management of these allergies. He mentioned antibiotics for the skin.

I am really upset about this. I have noticed today that the fur on Bub's cheek's look sort of pink. Is this another sign that he is suffering from horrible allergies?

He is on a variety of foods, chicken frames, necks, a bit of royal canine, beef and vegetable stew (With a tiny bit of rice to thicken the stew).

Prior to coming to us Bub seemed allergy free at his breeders. I am in the process of contacting his breeders for advice.

Should I drag the boy to another vet or should we return to this vet again next week to discuss allergy management?

Bub honestly seems perfectly happy. We did notice the pinky underarms etc and that was another reason for the vet trip but he did not look like he was uncomfortable to me.

Please offer me some advice/suggestions. I am freaking out right now at the thought of my baby being pumped with antibiotics.

Could the beef stew be the cause? He wont eat raw mince mush meal but enjoys his stew greatly.

I also feed him 2 linseed oil tablets a day. His fur is quite soft and he does not shed much.

Thank you so much for listening to my rant!

[Scales of Justice]

I would be changing linseed oil for fish oil (Maxi EPA).

[persephone]

he shouldn't be being "pumped full of antibiotics" for allergies ,but if he does have severe allergic reactions to things, anti histamines will help make him more comfortable antibiotics are used if, (because of him breaking the skin chewing or scratching) there is an infection in the skin.

You may need to do some serious detective work!

If, as you say, he was fine at the breeders, then check what is growing,covering the soil/sprayed/sprinkled/covering your floors/his bed etc!!!

Wandering Jew creeper,bark mulch,some lawn grasses,pollens from low growing plants, insecticides, carpet cleaners, soap powders,food colourings in chewies or biscuits......allergies can be ANYTHING!

Oh..also fleas, and maybe flea TREATMENTS

Having had a dog allergic to most grasses, and any food colourings, I can sympathise.

See what the vet does in the way of tests, and what management strategies he suggests

best of luck......

[Dogsfevr]

The first thing to scrape is beef,the biggest allergy problem a dog can be feed ,it over heats them & ccan be a hot spot causer.I would also scrape the rice total waste of time.

Is what your feeding what the breeder suggested??

Personnally i would be trying roo meat & spuds for a month & see what happens.A dog with severe allergies is a mess sounds like the vet is over doing it & not offering any basic changes to try first.

Grasses can be an issue so research whats in your garden

[Scales of Justice]

I forgot to mention - don't freak out about the antibiotics - the antibiotics are probably not a bad idea as some bacterial problems can become systemic and cause allergies.

[Bubitty]

Thanks for the help so far!

When he was at the breeders they fed him a chicken/duck carcass every second day and a mush meal made of ground duck carcass and veggies & some fruit every other day.

He also sometimes ate lamb flaps.

When I took him home they said I could make up the mush meal with beef since I dont have access to ground duck.

I have suspected the beef as I remember reading about it somewhere in the forum.

For what its worth I think the areas I described in my first post have become pinker since I have increased his Royal Canine so I am thinking of abolishing that altogether.

From what I have described of his behaviour do you think he is suffering badly? Should a normal allergy free dog not lick/scratch?

Do I judge improvements on his "pinkness" being reduced?

Weird thing is (touch wood) he has never gotten a hot spot here yet.

I am a bit suspicious because the first time we went to the vet (he had the runs) nothing was said about allergies and his looked the same as he did now, this time after we went again for a check up and shot suddenly the allergy was a major issue. He really made it seem like Bub was struck down and doomed. There were comments about how we would have to take steps to help him "cope for the rest of his days". He's such a jolly little dog its distressing to think that this is going to be a major life issue for him.

Showdog, where can I get roo meat? I have read that it is too rich? If I buy chicken breast and puree it in my food processor would that be ok?

Edited February 27, 2007 by Bub

[EllieD]

My girl was having some skin problems, my vet gave her a couple of injections

and anti-biotics, she was no better after 20 days on them. He said it was allergies, could be grasses.

Was talking to a lady who is quite knowledgeable about animals, and she advised me

to take her off everything I had been feeding her and put her on Nutro, which I did

and she is now fine. I now just add a few things to it for variety, and make sure she

has bones a few times a week! Haven't had any more problems!

[Dogsfevr]

Duck is richer than roo.

Roo is the most commonly suggested meat to use on allergy dogs.

You can either buy pet mince roo at all supermarkets or human mince roo.

Its up too you but if you feel the royal canin could be a factor i would cut that out asap .Personnally i would never feed beef as it causes so many issues .

The pinkness is generally saliva stains from the licking which then leads to moist skin & problems multiply.

You can bath the dog in white vinegar in the water as that helps with bacteria,tinea type stuff.Some of the vet only shampoos do nothing .

I would do a diet change,cut out any unneeded treats(schmackos etc) for a month & see what happens.

Make sure you do a plant/grass check so if there are any problem areas there you now but i think you will find its diet.

We actually get people who board there dogs with us to see if there symptons stop & in many basic cases yes as there not getting the home diet,treats & exposure to certain garden issues.

The clients have found it easier to do it this way & cheaper .Some vets charge $1000 plus for so called allergery issues & dont give any real help to problems except meds.

Flaxseed supplements are good,fish added to the diet (tuna,sardines) try natural alternatives & the breeders advice

The other thing ofcourse is dont over do the diet so many people go over the top & forget the good simple basics.

The other thing ofcourse is many pander to what the dog wants to eat not stick to what the dog should eat.

I say this in respnse to your other post.The dogs tied to the fence get feed the baiscs & no unndeeded treates etc & dont get allergies because there owners arent giving them allergery foods.

Pig ears,schmackos etc etc can be allergery causes plus any other table scraps etc dogs are given.

When all the unwanted things are given the dog end up with the runs from too much food & stuff its stomach cant handle.

Some of the flea stuff can react with dogs

Edited February 27, 2007 by showdog

[haven]

My GSD suffers from allergies and when they get really bad a dose antibiotics really does help to clear up the worst. Regular washing of the affected areas with Malaseb and/or aloveen really soothes it too. It has helped somewhat that we no longer live in a fully carpeted house and I am careful of what I give him to lie on. I don't belive it is diet related but I do feed lots of antioxidants and detoxing herbs and supplements, which I believe do help a little.

Bub does your dogs skin feel really hot in the affected areas? Loki's skin is red and can get very hot. He licks his legs a lot (a habit which is both allergy and anxiety related) and doesn't scratch a lot but I know he must be so uncomfortable when it is really bad. Loki also gets what the vet called "hyperpigmentation' where the skin gets blotches of darker colours on it, like freckles and 'hyperhydrosis' where droplets of moisture form on certain places on the skin, both of which are apparently signs of chronic allergies.

[Bubitty]

Hi Haven,

We have no carpet (ripped it out and had floorboards when we decided to adopt Bub). He likes carpet though so we have bought a few rugs which we leave around for him to lie on.

I will examine him tonight and see if those areas are “hotter”. Hmm I cant see any freckles and there are definitely no moisture droplets.

I have really been trying to keep him off the grass but he is a dog and he does like to mosey around and explore.

Despite his allergies does Loki manage alright? Bub is so darn happy you would never have thought there was anything wrong with him.

[bloss344]

Paspalum grass is a common allergen/irritant for many dogs.

My Bob has allergies similar to your boy, he licks his penis, butt and often elbows all which are a little stained like your dog's. I keep him on a very simple homemade diet but often the itchies are not diet related, it would be much easier if they were. A good diet is always a good idea though.

I also wash him frequently during the warm weather with an antifungal/antibacterial shampoo. All in all he copes quite well. Last year he had a course of cortisone but so far this warm season he hasn't needed it.

[mita]

he shouldn't be being "pumped full of antibiotics" for allergies ,but if he does have severe allergic reactions to things, anti histamines will help make him more comfortable antibiotics are used if, (because of him breaking the skin chewing or scratching) there is an infection in the skin.

You may need to do some serious detective work!

If, as you say, he was fine at the breeders, then check what is growing,covering the soil/sprayed/sprinkled/covering your floors/his bed etc!!!

Wandering Jew creeper,bark mulch,some lawn grasses,pollens from low growing plants, insecticides, carpet cleaners, soap powders,food colourings in chewies or biscuits......allergies can be ANYTHING!

Oh..also fleas, and maybe flea TREATMENTS

Having had a dog allergic to most grasses, and any food colourings, I can sympathise.

See what the vet does in the way of tests, and what management strategies he suggests

best of luck......

Our Gracie is similar to your dog in every way. And pretty much all that Persephone said applies.

My vet gives me some anti-biotics to give immediately, only if the skin is broken or becomes inflamed. The antihistamines he's recommended are polaramine.

And it's necessary to be fanatical about keeping her free of fleas. If one is spotted between Advantix applications, I give her a Capstar tablet (vet advice).

Just 2 other things have helped Gracie enormously.

First, keeping all colourings & preservatives out of her diet. She's never been better than when I changed to Tuckertime Chicken Roll (only available from some vets) with a quality dry food. Some tuna in springwater is added a couple of times a week.

Second, I find keeping her cool in summer a great help...& never leave her with damp hair. Times of high humidity seem to be specially at risk times for her.

Edited February 28, 2007 by mita

[Bubitty]

Thank you all for your input.

I have since calmed down and will be methodically going through all your suggestions.

Its so hard when some say its diet related and some say its not diet related!

Will start with the food, then yard on the weekend and a nice vet shampoo bath on Saturday.

Im also sus that maybe Im not bathing him enough (I bath him once every 4 weeks).

Dog raising is hard!!!!! I raised my human lil sister and it was MUCH easier than this!!!!!!!

[persephone]

Bub....don't fret about the bathing...Hamlet only has about 3 a year! :D

And..sometimes it CAN be diet related, and often it is NOT Depends on what he is allergic to!

If a dog is allergic to she-oak pollen, it doesn't matter WHAT it eats :p

BUT if the allergy is to corn,or beef,or red food colouring....then the food must be changed .

Hopefully your dog will only be sensitive to one or two EASILY-FOUND things

[haven]

Its so hard when some say its diet related and some say its not diet related!

To clarify, when I stated in my post that I don't believe it is diet related I mean that I don't believe my dog's allergies are diet related, certainly dogs can be allergic to things that they ingest. Poor coat condition and allergies as a result of dietary intake are two different things though.

Despite his allergies does Loki manage alright?

It's hard to say really, as I can't ask him. I know it bothers him and he licks/chews his feet and legs to the point where he has sores and they sometimes bleed. I don't know how much of this is allergy related and how much is the anxiety but I suspect that it is far more the latter.

ETA: he certainly is a happy dog a lot of the time though, when he is not stressing about something!

Edited February 28, 2007 by haven

[Sheridan]

Has your dog's environment changed much from the breeder's? My dog came to me from interstate and after some severe scratching problems and lots of red skin after licking. I thought it was an outside influence but after a change of diet it has settled down very well. An alternative to roo is turkey. I steam mince turkey and give him Eukanuka FP. He's done very well on it.

[Faolmor]

Our Lab was diagnosed with Atopic Dermatitis about a year ago. When he was first diagnosed, he was put on anti-biotics, but only because he had numerous sores on his skin and there was an infection risk. He was also prescribed Prednisone - which did clear up the skin issues. Also made him starving hungry all the time. (Although, he is a Lab, so who knows?) Thankfully, he is now med-free - in fact, I attribute this to his strict diet. One of the things the vet (Stephen Metcalf) did tell us was that there have been several studies into retriever type breeds and chicken. I'm sorry I don't have any of these studies to hand. However, apparently, it is very common for retriever type breeds (goldies, labs, flat-coats) to be intolerant of chicken.

Our dog is intolerant of any "mass-farmed" meat - eg beef, chicken, lamb, pork... I personally believe that he is reacting to the anti-biotics that these farmed animals are routinely given. He can tolerate turkey, however. We feed him roo, vegies, fish and fish oil, kelp, oats (he tolerates these, some dogs don't)...and now that his Atopy seems to have settled down, he can actually tolerate a small (very small) amount of kibble. The only brand he can eat without getting an immediate stomach upset and itchy skin is Advance Turkey & Rice (Adult - green bag). I'm still shocked that he can eat this, because it does contain some chicken by-product. However, I have also heard of several other intolerant dogs who manage to eat this food with no ill effects. He gets 1 cup per day, at night. Any more, and it's poo time. Spectacular poo time.

He really does well on the roo (tails for breakfast and mince for dinner); however, because it is so low in fat, he lost a lot of weight, and we couldn't get his weight up over about 26-27kgs. I dunno if you've ever seen a Lab at 26kgs, but they look like a concentration camp lab. Thanks to the introduction of the kibble, he's now at 29kgs - and although still very slim for a lab, is much, much healthier. His coat is shiny and his skin is clear. He is "almost" starting to grow a double coat (normal for labs, but not normal for our boy!)

I'm not saying that this will work for every dog of course, but I know how it feels to have a dog suffering from allergies and not knowing if there is any hope that they will ever be comfortable again. So I just wanted to give you some hope, and say that you will find a diet that suits your baby - just a matter of trying different foods and seeing how they respond. Be prepared to give each new diet time to work...and also bear in mind that in the first few days - you might see huge results, that suddenly disappear...or, you might think that it's not working because the dog gets diarrhoea. Both are normal reactions to a diet change...but in the end, YOU are the best judge of your dog's health.

Hope i've helped, and sorry for rambling on!

Edited March 2, 2007 by Faolmor

[curlyking]

I'd be a bit cautious about what your vet is saying. My dogs have often had similar colour hair around various parts of their body and they do not suffer at all from allergies. IF this is the only basis for his diagnosis then I'd question it. How does bub's skin look? AS for it not being normal for a dog to lick themself I'd also disagree with the vet and agree with your thought of it being a grooming thing. I would certainally take him off the Royal Canine for a start but whatever diet changes you make are, as has already been said, likely to take some time to show any differences.

[Miranda]

I don't know where you live, but some dogs do tend to lick, bite and scratch a lot more in hot, humid weather. You may find that the problem (if it actually is a problem) gets much better or even clears up altogether when the weather cools down.

[trifecta]

Having had a dog who would self mutilate she was so itchy, I recommend the following:

1/ Firstly, a topical application of something like Neocort ointment to relieve redness & irritation.

2/ Start an elimination diet. First, feed only foods that you know Bub is not allergic to... maybe chicken or turkey & rice for starters. Then over a period of weeks add individual food stuffs & monitor Bub for itchiness. I would recommend pumpkin to start with, then carrots, green leafy vegetables etc., (all raw/pulped of course). I would be cautious with potatoes - they are the same family as tomatoes, the deadly nightshade family, to which allergies are well documented.

3/ Try & keep Bub away from areas in your yard with plants known to cause allergies.

In this way you MAY be able to build up a picture of what triggers Bub's allergies.

In my dog's case she was extremely allergic to legumes... whether they were ingested as beans, peas, lentils, soya etc., or by contact, clover & lucerne the main offenders here. She was also allergic to grains. In fact keeping her out of the stable area so she could not hoover up feed spillages, & away from the horses in general, as she had a liking for their droppings, solved a lot of our/her problems!

We also consulted a homoeopathic vet who prescribed a constitutional remedy for her. This fixed a multitude of behavioural as well as physical maladies. Over time she needed her remedy less & less, & would only need it when an outbreak occurred. A homoeopathic vet will tell you this is because the dog is now pretty much 'balanced", while vets that I have worked with have told me that dogs usually improve with age as they become desensitised to the stimuli.

You certainly have my sympathies, an itchy dog drives itself & its owner insane with the continual, licking, nibbling, scratching & worrying of itchy skin.... especially during the night when the house is quiet!