moosmum

If you want more bums on seats for pedigree dogs you have have a higher ideal. There ARE too many dangerous,nuisance dogs.Too many unplanned or poor planned litters with no ready homes or not suitable to be homed,and homes that shouldn't even consider a dog. They don't come from backyard breeders OR pedigree breeders, or DD breeders,petshop or cross breeders. They come from a community ill prepared to make choices in the best interest of mans 1st true companion species,with the ideal of KEEPING them a true companion species. That higher ideal is very complimentary to pedigree breeders. I think you would find the biggest voices promoting cross breeding are commercial interests and their audience. Pure breeds,historicaly sell themselves,or wouldn't be here but theres more to that higher ideal than pedigrees.Pedigree alone doesn't allow for that ideal. While you deny that,you are not in a position to mentor or engage the community who so badly need it.

Agree. Look what we all have done. We can winge forever about what "they" have done to our dogs,but its "we" who keep doing it and will keep on doing it while its all we know.Its an age of specialisation, information bombardment,and little time.No wonder we all get side tracked into little cliques,and make mistakes because we can't see the bigger picture. I'd guess that when registries were formed there was a huge amount of variety even within the breeds,and the standards were written to provide a common goal,true to the breeds purpose and history. Showing and pedigrees proved to be an extemely efficient method of improvement.Visibly,the standards were reached long ago and its become a matter of degrees,or fashion in SOME cases.Ditto where a breeds original function has been lost. I doubt the founders of the breed clubs could have forseen how the world was going to change to lock us all into little cliques who only know our own speciality.The breed clubs didn't bring that about,and it didn't just happen to them. But blaming each other for problems keeps us there. We are never all going to have the same priorities if we focus on the finer details within our own area of expertise,or deny the validity of any other.

My brother in South Africa tells me SWF are called Poodles there.

Somehow,because Don Burke said the above, it has moved into a popular belief. Hybrid vigour occurs when one species is mated with another (lion x tiger etc). The info is on the net about breeding one dog breed to another, but if you check the proper scientific information, it is incorrect. If you cross a linebred dog with an outcross, you often get stunning pups, same if you cross one linebred example with another from a different line. Yep,I agree. Technicaly,they are not hybrids at all,or they would be sterile.But the "invigoration" happens.

I believe if KCs were to stop focusing on negatives and blame,they can win the support of the public.they are the only group with enough public profile,support and organisation left to take on the commercial breeders and animal rights groups. instead we allow them to paint us into a corner. But they need the public support. Then the problems can be tackled together,because the problems are universal.Pure breed dogs weren't the invention of the KCs,they were developed in communities,to meet those communities needs. The pedigrees came after Dogs were proved in the community.Locking them in as property of the KCs is never going to work. If KCS can win support to come out fighting we might be able to turn this around. As for fears cross breeds will some how take overcome the success of pedigree dogs? Its only in the public light that they can shine.Pedigree dogs are the safest of all! If society sees the value of keeping dogs a community rather than corporate interest,its the KCs who have the knowledge and history of how to breed with clear goals and success,and have to hand reliably breeding stock of known and measurable qualities. Those will always be essential to a community that can can value dogs into the future. Hybrid vigour can only occurr by breeding 2 pure breed dogs.anything after 1st cross is back to being a plain mongrel and relies on good,thoughtful breeding as much as any other other dog. There are more reasons for communities to values pedigree dogs than there are breeds by far. The focus shouldn't be on whos doing it right,just on making sure we all understand what WE need to do to stay true to our unique history and partnership with dogs,and helping others to understand that too. Or else it seems we will lose a part of our humanity to let dogs go.

But this is what I am getting at.There is a community problem and we can't face it as a community.If we refuse to own the problems its about WHO is wrong,not what is wrong. So every one tries to stay out of the firing line and NOT draw attention to themselves.Whos left to have a public profile? good question. barring a mirical I dont see a solution , they just wont work together, havent in 40 years, Ive known so many join work their butts off , become breed club secetaries,what ever, raise money for trophies, do months and years of work for the benefit of the breed and the club, then some one with goodness knows what agenda stabs them in the back and Im left with them sobbing wondering "what did I do wrong?" How do I know? because I was usually the one who either gave them a start with a m/r puppy and they wanted to show despite my warnings to enjoy their dog and forget the show scene. or got to know them as they searched for their pup. Usually I think, they have been winning a bit more than some can put up with, then knives start to slide out. the usual reason for making it too hot to handle. the backstabbing that goes on is incredible. Ive had many showi friends, but rarely showed, just hated the , o my darling friend one minute, then you know shes unethical u know. and thats just the tame stuff. Sadly have to take your hat off to the libbers, even if they are busy backstabbing each other, which i expect still goes on, human nature and club culture being what it is. At least they present a united front regardless. Shame isnt it, that the dog fraternity cant take a leaf from the same book. Theres also the mentality that says ANKC IS the dog fraternity.There would be better progress made if people can accept the dog fraternity should include anyone you hope will ever come to the KCs. Expecting them to come to YOU before they can be accepted just isolates you.Isolated,you have no public profile except what others choose to put forth.The experiences of those unaccepted isn't likely to be rosy and they will paint it any colour they see. That attitude also makes the KCs focus ever more narrow.The conformation shows are all they are left with,and any competition only amongst themselves. NO,not saying cross breeds should be shown.There are other forms of competition out side the show ring.But good breeding shouldn't be just about pedigrees and show wins.Joe sees a display dog.You want to talk pedigree,Tell him about history and he might start to get it.But there has to be the chance to KEEP making history outside the show ring. Association with cross breeds doesn't cause them.Not knowing pure breeds might.

But this is what I am getting at.There is a community problem and we can't face it as a community.If we refuse to own the problems its about WHO is wrong,not what is wrong. So every one tries to stay out of the firing line and NOT draw attention to themselves.Whos left to have a public profile?

And sometimes they see purebred dog breeders as having no right to question their fitness for puppy ownership, or they don't want to wait. So off to the Trading Post or Gumtree or the pet shop they go. Given that the existing number of ANKC breeders don't have any problem placing the pups they breed, what's the point in generating demand for pups that simply don't exist? Breeders aren't fading away because they can't sell their pups. Maybe we need to encourage those breeding responsibly to keep doing it before we ramp up demand. Imposing legislation that treats them identically to puppy farmers ain't the way to go from where I sit. replied to this last night and lost it but been thinking on it since.I'm not an optimistimist,but looking for solutions and causes,trying to see where we are headed and seeing only 2 possible out comes. 1) sees increasing legislation and restrictions ending with dog ownership going just where we don't want it.The way of every thing else these days.If theres profit in it,its a commodity to exploit.Legislate it into a trained,licensed, profession.Corner the market,franchise etc.An investment oportunity.Not far fetched at all when you look at what else has gone this way.ie child care. The divisions and misinformation in the dog world are pushing us closer to this. 2) Sees people claiming dogs as a community issue and responsibility.A common cause and interest.For that to ever happen,there needs to be a single body to speak for and regulate,educate and provide a meeting point and social oportunities for all the various groups with out pushing any 1 agenda.A sort of ombudsman to promote responsible dog ownership and practices,education,research,law etc. Maybe ANKC isn't the right choice for that job,Its too far from their purpose. But they would need to be a part of it and are ahead of most other groups.I could see a lot of benefits in it for them if they were a big part. For example,what if,through news letters,gatherings,education and peer pressure,a buyer was taught that being grilled by a seller is par for the course with ANY responsible,caring breeder? If ALL sources of dogs were going to be doing the same? As it stands,average Joe,who is most numerous,has no sense of belonging to any community and is powerless to influence direction apart from signing the latest poorly thought out petition.I think theres a huge opening there and would hope it doesn't come from a purely commercial interest. We need organisation and unity to promote best practice in all areas,and average Joe needs to be included.ATM,hes only aware of what any one interest group is pushing the loudest,and nothing about basic issues at all.Try to change that ATM and another group will only tell him different.

Thats scarey. So few of the general public are even aware of the huge variety of choice they have in pedigree dogs,and wouldn't have a clue what a wheaten or Kerry Blue is.I was rapt to see pics on DOL not long ago of a some ones Lakeland...I'd forgotten them,though they were a favourite when I was younger.Made my day :)

The ANKC has an associate register that pretty much does this for folk who want to do dog sports. Some breed clubs have fun days but it's a hell of a lot of work and generally restricted to pet owners of purebred dogs. I can understand why Maltese folk might not want to open the doors to crossbred owners. It's all those crossbred breeders and buyers that have pretty much led to the demise of the Maltese as a pet. Hard to put your heart into something like that. As a poodle owner I feel the same way about oodles. The breed I love has been exploited and abused to produce a pet that's often not much like a poodle at all. How does providing encouragement to oodle owners to show their dogs 'convert' them into becoming poodle owners? Half the reason these dogs sell is because their owners have bought into the hybrid vigour misinformation and the tripe about getting the best of more than one breed. By demonstrating to them 1st hand the predictability of what they could be getting,and learning of the care that goes into their breeding from people who are passionate about them.Showing faith in them and their ability to captivate others as much as yourselves.By having these people where you can reach them to present the alternative,and the ideal of breeding responsibly. There will always be some who will happily have or breed "mongrels",but I bet numbers would drop when they are reminded good breeders have goals other than sheer profit. A sense of belonging would promote community awarness and belonging in real issues.

ANKC breeds clubs are extremely unlikely to embrace cross breeds or their owners as members. Their general focus is on the breed survival and the show ring. Yes it is but unless they start looking at ways to increase interest in their registered pure bred dogs it won't be long before they don't have to worry about it at all. Especially in a breed like Maltese where there is actually massive popularity in the type of dog I just see a huge opportunity to run an associate membership where to join the dog must be chipped/desexed & council registered. Then have fun little 'shows' a couple of time a year along side regular shows where they can just have classes like best groomed, best child/dog, basic elimination obedience contest with sit, drop, stay where last dog standing wins, best trick etc.....all the while the pedigree breeders have a captive audience to show off their dogs too . If jo public felt like part of it I just about guarantee that the demand for ANKC purebred Maltese would increase. It won't happen overnight but neither will just pushing the same old barrow. What better way to fight fire with fire. Reel in all those owners with pet shop bought dogs and gently encourage them towards registered breeders. Oh well dreams are free! Sounds good but in reality the breed clubs are in existence to advise the ANKC about breed specific issues etc regarding registration and the standards of their breed and to deal with things associated with showing their breed. .The various state bodies have associate registers to enable dogs without pedigrees to participate but it would make a major change of culture for a bred club to accept cross bred dogs and their owners as members. Yeah I know. It just seems such a shame that with just a few hundred ANKC registered dogs annually that is a very small group to draw membership from, where in reality there are 10's of thousands of 'maltese type' owners out theer that would probably jump at the chance to feel included and venture out with their much loved dogs. I am by no means putting these ideas forward as promoting the cross breeds, quite the opposite. Reel them in to promote the pure breeds. I would love to hear of other innovative, fresh, inclusive ideas because with memberships, entries, clubs, registrations dwindling unless someone comes up with something they're doomed. Pushing the same old agenda is clearly not working for purebreed dogs everywhere. I'll make the analogy to what's happened with the sport of cricket. They took a look at the dwindling interest in a sport lacking relevance to todays faster pace here & now society and made changes that turned the sport on it's head, but also ensured enduring interest & popularity by making it more interesting & accessible. For what its worth Crickets,I agree with your idea whole heartedly. I think it would see a huge surge of interest in pedigree dogs and foster more responsible and informed attitudes in dog ownership/breeding.

Out of curiosity,wouldn't this be the way most ANKC breeds were 1st formed? The standard being the guide to strive towards,the pedigree a record of whats gone before.A tool to assist in the best decisions to achieve that standard. Hard to have purity before you have the breed and they all had to start some where. It all sounds pretty much usual practice for livestock registries.The goal there is not "Purity" for its own sake,but rather reliability of type that comes after consistent goals.A large gene pool assists to avoid problems.The pedigrees value is in the reading.What to avoid/what to bring in. I know of registries still open after more than 20 years and no pressure to close them yet. Seems to work anyway. Is there a written history of the KCs, or even in depth for specific breeds? I would be interested to read up on that if material is there.

Plants can be used for noise reduction. L.A freeways used pig weed,I'm sure a bit of research could find alternative species that might also be able to restrict view in some kennels that could be reserved for more reactive/noisy dogs.

We took a 3 month old pup to a camping reunion with family. In the evening with a huge crowd around the fire and wandering among the tents a bloke yelled out in horrified voice,pointing to my dog "This dogs been beaten!" I was ! I asked why he thought he could know that.It was because she wouldn't let him pat her and flinched away when he kept trying. All her life she just didn't like being touched on the body by strangers.No problems with us,though she didn't like things like tummy rubs or being brushed and would dance away like it was funny/a game.She was just very ticklish! She was the most confident and stable of dogs and loved head pats and rubs from anyone,was great with children,other dogs and any animals I cared to introduce her to. A touch any where on her torso would make her jump out of reach. No way had she ever been beaten. We got her from her breeder at 6 weeks.

Poor woman. So many heard,and none investigated.

None very regal :laugh: But I have on my list Clark Jose Bede Radar Dizzy And used already...Alias. Another is Whoopy,but could get you few looks calling that one at the dog park :D

Sigh. For the record and those who may not be able to follow: No where have I "stated" or even sugested that ANKC,state bodies or their members support BSL.

It exists in the form of the "associate register" for any desexed mutt, mongrel, non papered look-a-like and dogs of unknown parentage There's also the "sporting register" which allows for the "working" dogs such as those Kelpies registered with WKC, to be listed on the register, remain entire and compete in agility, herding etc. The purpose of the KC's is to maintain the "Pedigree" dog register, not to provide "novelty events" for dogs that are not recognised in any way Don't you find it hypocrital that some manning the ramparts screaming ''save the pitbulls'' & accusing the pure bred registeries & owners of not only supporting BSL but revelling in the ''slaughter'' are the same persons supporting the puppy millers, bred for profit only, shelter choking produce. If the truth be known, there are probably more abandoned "oodles:, deliberatly bred mongrels, put down in week than there are pittie ''types'' in a whole year. Disgusting and ill informed misrepresentaion of the truth? You do it so well. Where have I Screamed "defend the Pitt bulls? Where have I accused pure breed registers of supporting BSL or reveling in the slaughter? I assure you I don't hold you or M-sass as representative spokes persons for the KCs. Where do I support puppy millers or bred for profit only? I support responsible breeding by anyone who undertakes it,on the grounds that you will not stop cross breeding,but thats no excuse to say it shouldn't be done with out thought or care about the results.I will never support breeding for profit only. I believe the KCs could be in a far better position themselves, stronger than ever,with more support and membership,better financialy,politicaly and far less misunderstood if they accept that today,an expanded role is appropriate. KCs could have much more say in legislation and policy. Find a way to show it is REALY about better dogs,not JUST show dogs.If I had no regard for the KCs,I would hardly be urging them to fill the gaping holes before a real KC adversary does,for dogs sake.You can be sure D.D inc. will be quick to recognise the potential and use it to swing things their way. My only argument with you has been the proof of breeding onus being on the owner in cases where there is real doubt.You have made it quite clear you don't care that innocent people are caught up in this mess so long as they are only cross breeds we are talking about. I may disagree with M-sass's reasoning,but can respect that it IS reasoned.

What's wrong with a bit of creative management........we are talking box tickers here......what would you need to produce for a ranger to leave happily without your dog on a seizure mission In my experience (which is more than you would think), a switched on and Hitleresque lawyer!! m-sass And do you think it is fair, reasonable and equitable that someone should acquire a cute puppy which is the product of two crossbred dogs - neither of which have any pitbull - and when it grows up, it is tan with light eyes, it never does anything wrong, and it is sitting on the lawn one day, minding its own business when the ACO comes and grabs it, and the council will not let the owners see it again, or have the body returned after they have knocked it off? Can you tell me why that dog should die? It's not a pitbull. It has never done anything wrong. It should be killed, why? Someone who only thinks purebred dogs should continue to live, is not, imho, a true dog lover. Mantis, of course you are correct. Its even worse when they actively promote and support B.S.L to that end.Thats more than just not caring,or prefering Pedigrees.Thats hate. Extremism. I also think they are who they say.Different styles.Even scarier. I keep trying to find a way to say it with out offending any one.I can't but that attitude is fostered here on Dol.(and else where )There has to be a better way to bring change than labeling anyone who breeds out side of the KCs as irresponsible.Mostly it may be so, but its not a given.Its taught to be a given.These guys believe it whole heartedly enough to cheer on a slaughter. If the KCs could find a way to include non pedigree dogs, (Appendix registries? Novelty show events? Something?)They could be gaining new members who learn about goals and purpose. The Kcs would gain a big voice.And be given some thing new to to measure themselves against,even if only in novelty events. Otherwise,there are new registries popping up that cater only for D.D and commercial farms who are just as extreme,or more, towards the KCS. They will take up the slack and the KCs will suffer for that. If I get booted for these views,so be it.

I believe you re; no high drive dog being close to a wolf.You are prob. right too as to dogs getting easier in recent years for the environment over all. I have no problem with modified prey drives and know there ares many uses.I meant similar in mode of expression.A dog who has to be constantly watched for prey drift when your other dogs show fear or uncertainty,or get a small wound was more work than help for me. If others find that usefull fair enough.But I think some could get more than they bargain for breeding for high prey drives with out keeping modifications in mind too.

What a great experience that would have been!I'd have loved to do that when I was younger.I used to feed a small group of Timber wolves kept in a tiny enclosure at the local park when I was a kid,but the were poor excuses of wolves,stunted and 1/2 starved,kept in terrible conditions. Re the wolves intensity and prey drive,after working with dogs that had a similar intensity and prey drive, It bothers me seeing high prey drives sought and bred for training purposes.Expressed like that,its a huge backward step that goes against whats been accomplished over thousands of years and requires all your attention,at all times. Sure gives you an insight into pack structure and dynamics tho'!

I would be interested in your impresions. :) I have seen them and crosses before but never had to deal with them closely and on a daily basis. I am making sure one exercise yard is escape proof and unable to be climbed out of as I hear they are as nimble as a cat and I won't risk her climbing out. All the runs are escape proof but the yards are not fully enlosed(as in over the top) - yet!Theya re 1.8metres high adn double fenced but I am not taking any risks. Will let you know how I find her :) When I was a young child a local lady had a Fox she kept as a pet. He has his own run and a very securely fenced yard and was only taken out on a leash, not that he seemed to mind, he loved pats and was a very curious creature. I don't remember him smelling? but I was only around 5 I have only dealt with 2 dingo crosses. Never "pure".To handle,both were far more like dogs.The Gsd was 1/4 dingo (not 1st cross as said earlier,my memory slipped )the other was likely even less but no way to know.There were little differences tho' that might go un-noticed if you didn't know of the breeding.The GSD was a real handfull,but I loved her inteligence! She was very focused on people and reading them,loved to be interacting on some level but pleasing them wasn't always her aim :laugh: The other was a much quieter dog but both would notice and react to things differently.More curious? I remember hearing barking outside near the door and went to investigate.The dog was staring at the ground and telling something off.When I looked closer,It was an ant! :laugh:

I would be interested in your impresions. :)

Hey Orrd? Don't go away.There are some great stories here.Just try not to judge us till you've heard 'em. :)

I don't know how many times one has to repeat something before it gets through the ingrained bias rife here. But, again. I agreed with the coroner that owners of the suspected restricted dogs should be liable to for the indentification of the breed & not the councils which declare them.. That, & "bad laws are still laws" are the sum totals of my crimes against the rabid mob mentallity. While you all rail against crimes against the ''innocent'' yet practice exactly the tactics you complain about. Starts with an aitch folks a capitol AITCH. Your "Crimes" (your words not ours) are not that you don't agree,but you refuse to answer fair questions or read evidence presented. You call any reasoned defense to your arguments "rabid mob mentality" Your arguments are based on ridicule, insults and irrational statements.You seem incapable of disagreeing with out ridicule.That looks pretty "rabid" to me.The only ingrained bias is your own. I will be ignoring you from here on.You're too irrational for me.