asal

O and just to confuse you even further many of them also have a version of the "limit register" and/or are already desexed or tied tubes in the girls or vasectomised the boys

refer to the above. sorry I cant stop laughing. sent u a message look at the bar above if you dont know where to look it looks like an envelope

your chances of getting a not already desexed puppy i suspect would be yours and buckley's LOL they will burn you at the stake mate.

these days there are very very few who breed now that dont want to control the pup they bred from the cradle to the grave mate. That applies to anyone you get a pup from, not just an ANKC member. good luck on that quest. equally applies to most of the oodle breeders too, majority are already desexed before sale . my niece paid $7,000 for a blue merle cavoodle. she seemed totally unaware there are no merle cavaliers in Australia. nor to my knowledge are there any merle poodles in Australia? some one correct me if im mistaken? n the little darling was already desexed at 8 weeks

talking to a cavalier breeder recently. we both realised there is one way to eliminate these from the breed and return them to the 15 to 17 year lifespan the breed once had. coming from a family and friends heavily involved with CSIRO animal health I am well aware of the potential of frozen semen and eggs from animals later found to be free of major late in life defects. Also well aware of how useful cloning can be in an environment where millions are available to do this work. Ive seen sheep worth 1.3 million EACH. so where am I going with this. I well remember the ankc asking for donations to stop mrs furbur having access to records when she began a court case, the members raised over 80,000 to cover the legal fees for what to me was a frivilous case. She was a director why not give her acess to the records? the excuse she was wasting staff time confused me, why not just open the door to the files and leave her to it. they lost the case anyway. BUT it did show members can be asked for donations and contribute. so? why not get all cavalier owners to donate towards the collection and freezing of semen and eggs for future storage. then yes only a small percentage of the dogs donated will live MV and Syringomyelia free into their teens. BUT the dogs that do are worth GOLD to the Cavalier King Charles breed. ditto for the king charles if they are also included. So what to do next? use the semen of the successful dogs to the eggs of the successful bitches and you have an instant generation of puppies with a very high expectation of being free of both conditions. Now this is where things get even more important. these puppies will belong to all who contributed. so down the track as they are bred from the members can be balloted to receive puppies and semen to continue the lines and expand the clear gene pool. also equally important, if enough money is raised. any dogs that were missed in the collection and turn out to be clear into their teens the owner can be asked would they please allow dna samples be collected and cloned. YES ITS expensive but costs are dropping annually, Barbara Streisand has three clones of her favourite dog. Even though this sounds like science fiction this approach can be used to identify and return to the gene pool dogs found to be clear even though they had become infertile or desexed. This can be used to improve the gene pool of any breed. Stud cattle and sheep and goat breeders have been doing this for decades already. It needs something the dog world is sadly short of theses days of too many with the mindset that no one gets access to my precious bloodlines. If we want our purebreds to continue free of health issues we need to work together for the good of the breed, not ego's , this is the way to go Ending the present climate pushing that only x breds are the way to go Cloning has made incredible strides since dolly the sheep. In Japan they have a legendary wagyu bull who is still serving, he is a clone, of the clone, of the clone, from the original bull. I think there is a 4th generation of the 3rd clone growing up to replace him. in america there are three clones of a legendary racing mule. one has just been kept by the uni who cloned them, the other two are winning races, achieving the same speeds as the original racing mule.

Mikey, this link is the peta interview I was referring too. its on the "in the news" section https://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/273000-official-press-release-always-been-working-towards-the-extinction-of-our-pets/?tab=comments#comment-6969826

it can be very hard for the owner of a new pup as so many vets put tremendous pressure on them to desex early

one upon a time Mikey. New people were welcomed by ANKC members. You could choose to buy a main register pup if you wished to show and breed your puppy. If you wanted a pet the breeder would give you a copy of its parents pedigrees so you knew its breeding. Also once long ago there were three classes of puppies, That time did exist. it was in the 1970's and early 1980's. Pet, not for breeding as they had a fault not suitable to be bred from. Breeding quality, good quality and conformation, well in the guidelines of the standard, quite suitable for breeding and thus on Main Register. Show quality, good quality and confirmation but had that star quality that would always place them above the breeding quality puppies. (my problem with the "show quality" is a percentage would be a tad more exaggerated in some conformation point that when bred together was and has for generations gradually moved many breeds away from the original standard, (eg, shorter and shorter faces, bigger and bigger eyes, narrower head, or broader head depending on the breed.) just to use Persian cats for example they removed "pleasant expression" so the gargoyles with virtually no muzzle squished beneath massive eyes could now win. in dogs Red setters began to resemble letter openers their skulls were becoming so narrow. French bulldogs and pekes. pugs and Cavaliers lost their muzzles. As my vet Richard said, they shorten the muzzles but the genetics isn't shortening their tongues or their pallets or their nasal passages which are still the same size and now jamming up inside so cant breathe, keep their tongue in their mouth, or even their tear ducts function without blockages. Today few seem to even know "breeding quality" existed Today from what I see in the adds a majority will only sell every single puppy regardless of quality on limit register. I call them Proudly Dead End Kennels. They think they are the epitome of Ethical and Responsible. An unfortunate percentage of ANKC members are what I now think of as "the thought police" They are the self appointed witch hunters of past era's. And like any witch hunter, completely ignorant that other narrowed eyed thought police are eyeing them for elimination too. Their weapon of choice, the phone, busy dialing the rspca, animal welfare and the targets local council. what no one realised in the dog world was a lady began a new organisation in 1982, she called it PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals) nice cosy sounding name. What it really was founded for was to eliminate all domestic animals. First on the agenda is dogs and cats. about 1984 my ankc friends had began talking about "we have to get rid of backyard breeders and puppy farmers in our membership, they are ruining the reputation of the ankc". I looked at my friends sitting there in their loungerooms planning what was essentially a modern version of the Salem witch-hunts. I asked them, pointing to the back door. "What is outside that door? YOUR BACKYARD" YOU are as eligible for elimination as every other ankc member, unless your living in an apartment with no backyard!" they looked at me as if I were stupid? I couldn't believe they have forgotten the lessons of the past? One of my friends parents are Polish, they knew about witch hunts by the Nazis, another friend is Jewish, he could speak 7 languages because his parents had fled the Hitlers pogroms and in their search for a safe haven been through 7 different language zones and learnt them all before arriving in Australia? My own Mums fathers ancestors fled the Spanish Inquisition to Ireland to become the black Irish. so in those bad old days there were over 50,000 ankc members in a population of some 16 million Australians welcoming you to become an ankc member. fast forward to today, some 22,000 left in a population of now 28 million Australians piously sticking to the ideal of never breeding to sell "we dont breed to supply pets!" I'm ethical, I only breed a litter to replace for the next generation. Sadly Mikey you are going to have a very hard time finding some one who will sell you a main register puppy. I do breed and sell main register puppies, but they are an unfashionable breed. also quite unsuitable for anyone who has no experience with a highly intelligent working breed. So far pretty safe from attracting the interest of any actual puppy farm anyway as they are worth a fraction of the thousands the fashionable breeds get. you need to get to know as many people with the breed you do like and hope and pray you find a nice one who will consider selling you a puppy on Main register. But be careful. when you buy your pup, make sure you ask can you have your puppy vet checked and return if your vet turns it down. there are two reasons for this, some depending on the breed you choose can have significant breathing issues. and as I discovered at a school sports day. Although many breeders tell you upfront, yes I will sell you your puppy on main register so you can show it in the neuter classes. Many puppies today are already either desexed or vasectomised. the lady at that sports day had her cute cavalier puppies in a pen, she didnt want to miss the sports day so had arranged for the new owners to pick them up there. As I played with the puppies I noticed the marks where stitches had been removed and commiserated with her how sad the whole litter had been born with hernias. she blushed. admitted they were not done for hernias, the had all been desexed as 'None of the puppy buyers want to breed but they all insist they want them on main register, sooo they can't complain when none of them can reproduce can they?" to want to breed today is to be suspected of being "only in it for the money" you are intending to become a "greeder" Meanwhile there are so few purebred puppies to be found people are having to wait a year or more for even an already desexed puppy there are rebels like me who will sell on main register to keep our breed from extinction. But sadly 99% are desexed by their owners before they are 12 months old either vet pressure or so many believe the propaganda not to breed to contribute to the pounds. There just isn't a next generation coming to keep our breeds going. but all the ankc breeds barring a miracle are on the slope to extinction my vet four years ago predicted within ten years most pedigree breeds will be on or beyond endangered. added to that the mad demand for oodle crosses few purebreds even unpapered are being bred together to fill the x breed market and thus too are heading for endangered PETA is so happy and confidant that last Melbourne cup day they went public over how successful their elimination campaign has been that they see the end of domestic dogs in sight. Can we who love our dogs wake up in time and stop destroying each other and our breeds before its too late? Peta threw in the seeds to begin the destruction from within. (we have to eliminate puppy farmers, we have to eliminate backyard breeders,) came from PETA. Ankc members heard it and took up the cry, with no idea of the agenda behind it, can the pack be called off? can they reunite? because divided they are falling like matchsticks.

there are three products with this ingredient Bravecto, Nexguard and Simpparica (or spelling similar?) O'Domhnaill Shanz Does Bravecto Kill Dogs? utos1Sspon4sot tgJruuly 2eft0liu20d · ADMIN AWARENESS POST Per a well known vet: "Some good news on possibly helping isoxazoline impacted dogs. There is a theory out that high fat ingestion, cheese and/or coconut oil binds the isoxazoline that attaches to nerve and brain cells." See notes below from a top vet who wishes to remain anonymous- “Suggests fat-globule forming in the bloodstream (such as cheese) in case residually-bound Fluralaner molecules in the animal's body (particularly in nerve/brain tissues) might yet be coaxable to partition out of those tissues' cells and be excretable. To achieve higher fat levels, the dog can eat cheese with each meal and/or take coconut oil in food or treats (but, it's high fat so use in moderation). Some dogs may be intolerant of cow milk/cheeses, so sheep or goat cheese could be tried. Based upon the size of the pet: Use Whole Milk Cheese & common sense ! · Less than 10 pounds -- 1/2 slice or 1/4 inch block · 10-15 pounds, 3/4 slice or 1/ 3 inch block · 15-25 pounds, 1 slice or 1/ 2 inch block · 25-40 pounds, 1.5 slices or 3/4 inch block · 40-65 pounds, 2.0 slices or 1 inch block · 65-80 pounds, 2.5 slices or 1.5 inch block · 80 + pounds, 3 – 3.5 slices or 2-2.5 inch block etc At this time, this is theoretical and being suggested in an attempt to help isoxazoline impacted dogs. “ although one poster has had no posative benefit to their affected dog Wish it was true, but it did not make a difference for our boy. He had a tea spoon of coconut oil with breakfast and ended up with seizures and nothing made it better.

lots of information via this direct link so included for those want to learn more https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10222241437138182&set=gm.1805521142979672 think this is the forum it comes from? https://www.facebook.com/groups/fb.comgroupsnexguardbravecto/ apparently some are forming a class action. the chap who lost the 10 yr old intends joining it

I suspect this will be in the news some time soon. I have learned of 7 in just the past two months. Two are puppies I bred, only 3 have survived but they only had one dose of either bravecto or nexguard. An 8th I learned is now dead. same symptoms although her owners swear they never gave her either. although not saying what they did give her as their vet has told them epilepsy and neurological damage is inherited and has told them to ask me for their money back? Interestingly none of the vets who gave the dogs they then put down when the fitting and damage eliminated quality of life have considered the drug they gave the dog is responsible or offered any refunds? half have told the heartbroken owners, for the puppies. its genetic. for the until then perfectly healthy ten your old given his first nexguard chew by the vet and had to be put down, his owner was told "sudden old age onset"? He hit the roof when I warned him when he bought his new puppy. not to give her and that I knew it is killing peoples dogs. Until then he had believed his vet. all the ones ive heard about had reactions to their first exposure to it? Apparently for some reason (some vets are speculating in the literature I've been googling , it crosses the blood brain barrier) in a small percentage with awful results as the active component is a powerful neurotoxin and there is no antidote. This lady's dog the damage has apparently been accumulative. Kelly Duggan YesftrohesesetSpoSernmedasfatyg at 1u1h:or30edme · NOT MY DOG -- Reposting for Signe Bay Dear all! We are in deep grief as we lost our dear cocker spaniel Rita one week ago. She was four, almost five years old and had no symptoms of anything before a week before, where she started urinating at night. I immediately took her to the vets, and after a couple of days researching (and the first vet saying it was just a stomach flu ) they found out that Rita suffered from LIVER CIRRHOSIS (end stage) and they told us that there sadly was nothing we could do. At this point Rita was generally fine. We went to another vet to get a second opinion, but her conclusion was the same. But why? I asked them. Rita was never ever ill, she was so healthy, never had anything. Her breeder has had cocker spaniels for 30 years, and none of her dogs died under 15 years. But she doesn’t give them oral flea medications. The vet told us that it is most likely that Rita suffered from a genetic disorder. Other vets I talked to (more holistic ones, but still veterinarians) told me, Rita had to have been poisoned. No liver would be damaged to that amount without poisoning. One vet asked if we had been using Bravecto. Bingo! Yes, unfortunately I once listened to my vet who highly recommended this drug as we were staying one summer in an area with lots and lots of fleas. We gave Rita Bravecto approx. every six months over a period of two years. I’m usually very sceptical about chemistry and drugs, and I have no idea how I could, with no suspicion, give pesticides to our dear dear Rita. I want to use this very hard lesson to bring awareness to everyone about the horrible side effects {after} Bravecto! My goal is to get it forbidden in Denmark, and I will use my rather big amount of following on IG (290K) to reveal everything about these medications. Yesterday I wrote about Rita, and I’ve received hundreds of messages from people who’ve experienced the exact same issues with their young dogs - after using Bravecto, and many of these never saw the connection before - thus none reported cases. My vet, at first, wouldn’t even report it to the Danish department of Drugs neither Merck, so I reported it myself! Then I talked to the pathologists of the University of Copenhagen, only place in Denmark where they do autopsies, and they told me that they wouldn’t be able to see WHY Rita’s liver was end stage, not even whether it was poisoned or whether it was a genetic disorder, and even IF we knew Rita was poisoned, they aren’t able to make correct analysis to address what she has been poisoned with. I believe they only make these analysis (in the spine?) in the US? Addressing that problem to my vet, that ‘how on Earth will they ever have scientifically evidence when it is NOT possible to make the correct tests??’, she understood that there might be an issue here, and she was willing to report the death of Rita as ‘suspicious’. So, I NEED YOUR HELP! I am in contact with Merck in Denmark, and they are VERY curious to see registers of reported cases. But WHERE do I find these official reported cases? I guess in the Danish Drug Department (Lægemiddelstyrelsen), but they are impossible to reach - so I might have to seek ‘access to documents’ there. And can someone please tell me what kind of tests they do around the World to see what kind of poison is the reason - IF they can see whether it is poison. Can someone please get me in contact with the people in Holland who fought to get it forbidden there?

Yes Moosmum. too true. as for the witch hunts to "eliminate" back yarders and or puppy farmers is pandering to the hate so many people like to be part of with no idea they too can be targeted as the parameters to accuse are so vague. spotted this quote from the Queen today and thought gee she doesn't realise this also applies to dog people. Peace and Goodwill For her holiday broadcast in 1957, the Queen was facing a historic moment. This was to be the first televised message, moving away from radio. She offered comfort in a changing world: "It has always been easy to hate and destroy," she said. "To build and to cherish is much more difficult. That is why we can take a pride in the new Commonwealth we are building." " the ankc has been busy tearing itself apart for over 20 years without realising nice as it feels to be part of the call to " to hate and destroy" those accused of being targeted as puppy farmers/backyard breeders. its about time to "To build and to cherish" before its too late for the rapidly declining still remaining before its too late.

Interesting conversation with a chap just now. his neighbour breeds, cavoodles, beagoodles and Borderdoodles. It is a totally dedicated puppy farm and the owner is on the best of terms with the RSPCA inspector who came to "audit" the place . Thanks to the mega prices the puppies bring in the place has the best of everything because they can afford to. so much for eliminating puppy farms.

meanwhile ANKC members are telling each other "we should not be asking a price that covered breeding our pups, not doing it for the money" I noticed three breeders were asking only 1,000 for their puppies and two told me that. the other didn't reply to my query why so cheap. A friend posted this today on faceplant. Why are we being encouraged to not value ourselves or our work or knowledge we put into our pups? Why is it believed to be proving your "ethical"? or as a friend asked, "is the first priority of being an ankc member today stupidity? It certainly is not the agenda of the x breeders and the people who want a pet are paying the insane prices. A giant ship's engine broke down and no one could repair it, so they hired a Mechanical #Engineer with over 40 years of experience. He inspected the engine very carefully, from top to bottom. After seeing everything, the engineer unloaded the bag and pulled out a small hammer. He knocked something gently. Soon, the engine came to life again. The engine has been fixed! 7 days later the engineer mentioned that the total cost of repairing the giant ship was $20,000 to the ship owner. "What?!" said the owner. "You did almost nothing. Give us a detailed bill." The answer is simple: Tap with a hammer: $2 Know where to knock and how much to knock: $19,998 The importance of appreciating one's expertise and experience...because those are the results of struggles, experiments and even tears. If I do a job in 30 minutes it's because I spent 20 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes.

This is a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/475356950059066/?__cft__[0]=AZV6X4TZIQa4w3IJlXI4b6kG0WL2964O2iUWuOgH3YHPquYu_DdBjpXqsEcr0fsCpU4Mn4DL5T2n6R8dh8oWt0FmuBBO4oHF-y7exy4Kr93SkzT5yU68c90cimMlJDpKjIBIpHM4zKYKmwdR8QpHxbv5pXhRwjOaLLrkedCmciLWdTeskprE7nhmf50DmFfywsvJZ78OS6OsqP8BzhfBLWXzt2Tnk1QUwBEbnIH3PP621g&__tn__=R]-R I am hearing weekly now of dogs dying from being treated for ticks Bravecto, Nexguard and Simparica can be deadly Just one of the posts there " Here is the updated data on the reported adverse side effects from the class of drug responsible for our Benji’s suffering of seizures so debilitating that we had to put him down. These numbers are USA only, there are many more to be added from the Europe, Australia, Canada etc. you get the picture right. Please share this! If we can prevent even one more senseless death like Benji’s it’s worth it!! The trauma and pain for families and their pets is unbelievable. This has to be stopped!!

look up gumtree, the oodle x's are even going to $9000 ? unreal

the farmers have been though hell this past years between drought and fire and what does our govt and the rspca do. Rob them. https://www.theland.com.au/story/7159192/lost-cattle-in-national-parks-sent-to-sale/?cs=4941&fbclid=IwAR3ZR55nEuJjqrErVlWLXSw7Bv8f-3jbtrgeQNEOAUnPpDKYPiX-EmMBOAA

friend has the same condition, in her case there is herniating and the doctors dont want to operate. she feels like she is suffocating. very hard for you, she has no choice but to live with it and the fluid reduction treatments. good luck with your dog.

the other story doing the rounds is this one. " The old lady who owned them has dementia and her family asked the rspca to step in and help rehome the dogs, no mention of that in the rspca speil is there! Points to note: 1. They always post a photo of the worse dog - the dog pictured does not look to be in a drastic mess! 2. "A decision will be made in 60 days whether to prosecute the owner" .. prosecute her for what?! She is old and unwell FFS, the family asked for help and the dogs were surrendered. If she is prosecuted it goes against all the guidelines the rspca must follow when dealing with these types of cases. " RSPCA NSW 2m1tSpofnsofredshd · RSPCA NSW yesterday seized 79 dogs from a breeding establishment located in Central West New South Wales following reports of alleged breaches to the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979. Two RSPCA NSW inspectors executed a search warrant at the property at 8 a.m. on Wednesday 24 February 2021. Due to the size of the operation, six inspectors, two RSPCA NSW veterinarians and two animal transport officers attended the property and assessed the animals. The inspectors seized 79 dogs and puppies requiring varying degrees of veterinary treatment into RSPCA NSW custody. All animals were admitted into care at RSPCA veterinary hospitals by 5.15 a.m. this morning, Thursday 25 February 2021. The investigation is ongoing. A decision to lay charges against the person of interest will be made within 60 days. " " but why would they when the family realised there was a problem and sought help from the -supposed- caring charity in order to ensure the animals had the best chance of being suitably rehomed. Bearing in mind that is a lot of dogs to rehome if the family tried to do it themselves, obviously they were overwhelmed at the prospect and sought help as per the process outlined on the rspca website. I don't know the exact wording but l have read on their website something along the lines of ... 'if sickness or other factors means you can't care for your animals properly, contact us, we can help'. "

well no one else has shared it . " OMG, look at this! Unbelievable! Pawn off puppies and kittens with ringworm to foster carers so you don't have to deal with treating them They more than likely got ringworm in your shelter, like Roxy the Borzoi did Asking if foster carers have a LAUNDRY where they can keep the puppies and/or kittens! How does this fit in with the Standards and Guidelines that you are applying to all dog and cat breeders?" "Our Sydney Shelter is currently looking for some very special foster carers to look after some of our more vulnerable residents.Ringworm (a fungal infection similar to athletes foot) is a common but very treatable illness. Regular cleaning, ongoing support and advice about fostering animals with ringworm will be provided to you as a foster carer.Fostering ringworm animals is recommended for people who meet the below criteria:• do you have no children?• do you have a tiled room that you can keep animals in (specifically puppies or kittens) that is easy to clean, such as a bathroom or laundry?• are you confident or willing to learn how to administer medication or bath kittens?• can you commit to fostering for approximately 8 weeks?If you fit the criteria and believe you can assist please sign up to be a foster carer on our website, when choosing what categories you can assist with make sure you check the box that says 'Ringworm' http://bit.ly/3pGCgAL " Interesting in the light that if you bred them you would be charged in line with the current Audit raids?

THE REAL PROBLEM every dog, every situation is different. these animal rights nutters trying (and succeeding now) to force everyone to fit their ideas of best practice legislation they are demanding of the pollies from people who dont even believe in breeding any domestic animals in the first place is beyond me? The pollies are not even listening to the real reproduction vets first?

thanks. agree with you. Bluie was from (wait for it) A litter of ten! Chihuahua puppies, her mum Winnifred was like a seedless watermelon with legs barely capable of standing with the weight. I rang Nancy freaking out at her size, i used to look after her brood girls after she had her heart attack until she was recovered more. but Winifred every instinct was warning me this was going to be a potential disaster delivery. Took her to Nancy and she agreed so we went to Marilyn Gill. she went into labour but no puppies were moving. As I suspected she was too full of puppies to push normally so one normally self whelper too packed to push ended up needing a ceaser and she raised them all. I took her home and looked after them and her as Nancy was still too unwell yet. the docs said 1/3rd of her heart had died. they gave her 3 months to live. stubborn old girl lived another 5 or was it 7? and dementia won the battle . Think Nancy Gate was an amazing lady. My friend since I was a teen. So although I kept Bluie I was terrified she would emulate her mum some day . so it was a complete mystery why she stuck to singletons all her breeding life. but frankly I didn't mind, she had no trouble whelping and they were stunners every one of them.

the stupidity is the fact that the owner of a singleton producer is hamstrung on now many puppies she is allowed to have. my Bluie had 8 pups before she finally had a daughter to continue her line. today thanks to the thought police she would never have been born. Meanwhile the owners of 15 litter pups has 120 pups to choose from. When I raised this anomaly the owners who have the choice of over 100 pups told me I "should accept what nature gave you". as for the what I consider fools who think they should only breed one or at most 2 litters to choose for the next generation are not breeders. you need to have a half decent number to select from to maintain not only the gene pool but genetic diversity. but That's not politically correct. so best practice goes out the window. as for the education level of vets today left me not impressed had a litter with prentation problems so needed a ceaser. lovely puppies all 7, what does she say? "Poor mum, they will suck the life out of her." If she truely believed that? Why was I not offered a feeding chart to ensure she was adequately fed for goodness sakes? I told her she will gain weight , she will have go on a diet after they are weaned. She told me I "will learn that is not the case, the puppies WILL suck the life out of her" I made a point of taking them back so she could see for herself. she was not a just out of uni newbie vet? This is not acceptable no wonder so many laws when even modern day vets do not know our basic management job?

We do need to be able to make our own decisions. based on circumstances. the real problem has become this push by politicians to legislated our right to make decisions based on our individual circumstances. for example arbitrarily deciding how many litters you may breed with nothing to differentiate between a 1 pup "litter" and 15 pup "litter"

Please dont be chased away. Its people NOT questioning the mess the show breeders are happy with that created the disasters featured on Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Hugs. you raised valid points. the idiots shoot the messenger, something even the King of Persia refused to do no matter how bad the news.