asal

maybe a reminder is needed, as to the reason for this thread? Although the problem is looming across all breeds and breeders. Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:02 PM There were only 299 ANKC registered maltese bred australia wide last year - of them less than half would have main register papers If someone isnt working out some strategy to ensure survival of the breeds its time they woke up. There are breed clubs shutting down all over the place.

The misconception of lemming "mass suicide" is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors. In 1955, Disney Studio illustrator Carl Barks drew an Uncle Scrooge adventure comic with the title "The Lemming with the Locket". This comic, which was inspired by a 1953 American Mercury article, showed massive numbers of lemmings jumping over Norwegian cliffs.[10][11] Even more influential was the 1958 Disney film White Wilderness, which won an Academy Award for Documentary Feature, in which staged footage was shown with lemmings jumping into certain death after faked scenes of mass migration.[12] A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but were in fact launched off the cliff using a turntable.[13] This same act was also used in the Apple Computer 1985 Super Bowl commercial "Lemmings" and the popular 1991 video game Lemmings, in which the player must stop the lemmings from mindlessly marching over cliffs or into traps. In a 2010 board game by GMT games, "Leaping Lemmings", players must maneuver lemmings across a board while avoiding hazards, and successfully launch them off a cliff. Because of their association with this odd behavior, lemming "suicide" is a frequently used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences.

Just received a pm THERE are some out there with a better command of comprehenson of what is going on after all. thank DOG ALTHOUGH I fully understand why its safer to 'lurk' than speak out, I know I am often left wondering. Is what I just said not in a language the reader actually can read? Let alone understand what is said. I know when I was a teen, my friend Ursula's father, Mr Rudowski used to give me his Polish Encyclopedia and have me read it to him, then he would ask me what had I just read about? So, I would look at the accompying photos and have a guess. He would be THRILLED, "look, she is learning Polish" Maybe Sheridan and Pebbles et al, really need everthing done with pictures? Sent 01 January 2013 - 10:47 PM "There is too much damage being done and not just to pedigrees.They will take every one else down with them if they can,all because they want to be an exclusive club and have 1 rule for them and still set rules for every one else whos not even a member." (for the benefit of the reading impaired, the comment above does not just apply to the breed clubs, it APPLIES to ALL the state ANKC bodies and their members and committees) My. probably illegable (to so many unfortunately) reply EXACTLY. yet there seem's nobody is 'home' in realising this. I am so glad you do understand this,,,soo maybe there re more out there after all. but, the touble is time is running out, if those like us who can see this do not rally together and speak up. I fear for the future if they do not join us. I hope they gain the courage to speak out Well the year is HERE. HAPPY (AND BUSY AND,more join us in speaking out for everyones sake and make this) NEW YEAR the happiest and finally SUCCESSFUL in turning the lemmings away from falling into the sea or going over looming cliff's.... cheers

asal, I must say that I agree with Sheridan here. I don't even know exactly what happened to you but to be honest I find your posts extremely hard to read and verging on irrational. I read a lot more than I post on DOL, and I find myself skipping over your posts because I can't decipher what you are trying to say, and cringe when basically a seething hatred of a grand animal rights conspiracy is all that really comes through. It's a shame, because you're obviously very passionate and have a lot of experience. I consider myself somebody who is very passionate about animal rights. There are kooks in the animal rights and welfare world as well as the show world, and every other group or people in the world. I think that on most accounts I understand the different sides of the dog world coin, and have sympathies that lie with breeders and rescuers, and can see the forest for the trees where it seems a lot of people can't. But I just.. don't understand you. It is probably better that you dont. stick to the ones who can express themselves so well like sheidan and Pebbles. they are the future. I was and am the past.

Yes. I am so embarrassed. all that time you knew. while I was wasting your time and patience saying what you didnt need, a fools version

What does it tell Joe public about the Pedigree ranks it does SHOUT something, Reactive, not Pro active just for starters, good Public Relations. reactive 1. Personnel management: Behavior that is not internally motivated but manifests in response to a situation or the actions of others. 2. Safety management: Unstable chemical that reacts with its surroundings (air, water, light, heat, pressure) or certain other chemicals. Reactive chemicals start unwanted or uncontrolled reactions with the release of energy, increase in temperature, formation of corrosive, noxious, or toxic byproducts or spoilage. Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/reactive.html#ixzz2GFGQlpIu Proactive. Action and result oriented behavior, instead of the one that waits for things to happen and then tries to adjust (react) to them. Proactive behavior aims at identification and exploitation of opportunities and in taking preemptory action against potential problems and threats, whereas reactive behavior focuses on fighting a fire or solving a problem after it occurs. Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/proactive.html#ixzz2GFGyjNjE Who of the two do you think Joe Public will respect?

Yet it only took ONE screening OF PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED to finnaly at last, achieve that change for the better? A fellow member, a fellow breeder is "a cracked record" it took that one AR Doco to get it finally done What does that really say about todays dog fraternity?

Do you honestly think this is a one off? Only the other day I was talking to an rspca specil constable, and guess what? most of the complaints about breeders come from??????????????? fellow breeders. its been the way to get rid of what others who consider themselves the "guardians of their breed" and its been going on for decades. yes its nice the say I brought it on myself. Yes I did. I didnt follow the party line. why should I? Who are these people who know everything? or more correctly THINK they know everything. what about the pair who bred the parents of a pup they then told the new owner is a crossbred??????????? so how much do they really know after all? how can I or the owner of that pup be expected to respect and look up to people who prove they dont know as much as they thought that did that day? Everything about breeding you view through the lens of what happened to you. Your bitterness seeps through every post. In fact, I don't think you've posted about anything else since I began to read your posts. But there's only so much repeating you can do before you come across as a broken record. I don't doubt your sincerity but not everything is an AR conspiracy. no your right. its the people who do not register anything on main. the people who do register some on main, but only if they think its going to be a champion. the people who no longer realise there is such thing as a breeding quality dog, which is an entirely different creature to a show champion. Why do I get accused of being a broken record? because HULLO................NO ONE IS LISTENING. how proud does it make me ,to have spent 30 years telling thecommittee members of our breed club,,judges too, that "the more diminutative preferred" in the standard was being used as the pretext to send more and more bitches down the ceaser only path to reproduction... how proud does it make me it had to take "pedigree dogs exposed" to finally get them so desperate to be seen to care about our breed to FINALLY delete it? What does that really say about the people who run the clubs, judge the breed? It had to take a worldwide expose to get any action? yet the constant reduction of the numbers of breeders, the continuing reduction (across the board) of puppies registered PROVES, THERE IS A PROBLEM. since you know all the answers thank DOG you can fix it. before its too late eh?

Did I miss something? I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding? All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love. change the culture, save the breed. Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline. Can hope for a miricale of course. but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs. just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening

am I missing something ? but why dont you vaccinate every year? especially if your working in a vet environment and fostering dogs, visiting farms etc....also if you dont do it every year then wouldnt the cost be minimal anyway? once you pass the overvaccinating line like my friends cat, it cost her 7,000 over 3 years and 3 boosters before even her own vet wondered if the the vaccinations were the problem??? stopped the yearly boosters and he lived to 21. although she was still paying her credit card off for the next 18 months. No offer of a refund considering it turned out the vets yearly vaccination reminders did all the damage?

When the members of a breed club start saying the same as the AR activists they are shooting themselves in the foot in their zeal to be seen as 'ethical' "Its unethical to breed a litter if you dont intend to keep them" in the 70's most who bred, did breed to sell their pups, thousands of pensioners made 'pin' money from their pups to get by on the pension. "its unethical to sell on main register if its not show quality" now thats even been morphed to "if it cant become an australian champion it shouldnt be on main register" in the 70's any pup that was considered a credit to its breeder was on main register. it didnt HAVE to be good enough to show, it didnt HAVE to be good enough to become a CHAMPION. aLL it had to have was reasonable conformation and type, there used to be three types, Showing was one, Breeding was the other that still received Main registration . The third was pet. There was no limit rego, the pet buyer received a typed or written copy of the pedigree. The other two categories recived their Full Registration Papers. Somewhere along the line the breeding quality dog got lost. INCREDIBALE and SHOCKING it may be, but its a fact that two dogs incapable of becoming Australin Champions can and have for decades managed to produce as good and better pups than Champion to Champion mating. now with todays pack of gullables all the once registered breeding quality dogs are all on limit, even the majority of show quality dogs are on limit. Take a look at how many desperate to be Ethical's even advertise they will never sell a main register pup, that they only register on main what they intend to keep? long as these people continue this mind set the slide into extinction of the breeds will continue. Ninety percent of new breeders havent a clue about genetics and selection. dna tests, hip scores etc are only skimming the edges of what a "breeder" needs to learn and select for and perfection is never going to happen. thats why the art of selecting two breeding quality, (not perfect) without the same fault in both, but different strenghts as well is being lost along with the breeds. but hey im a dinosour wasting my time trying to educate people who think they already know everything once they have passed their breeders test. There is a very very true saying. YOU ONLY STOP LEARNING WHEN YOUR DEAD! trouble is , it is as if once a person decides they have become 'ethical' its becominganother word for brain/learning dead.

Do you honestly think this is a one off? Only the other day I was talking to an rspca specil constable, and guess what? most of the complaints about breeders come from??????????????? fellow breeders. its been the way to get rid of what others who consider themselves the "guardians of their breed" and its been going on for decades. yes its nice the say I brought it on myself. Yes I did. I didnt follow the party line. why should I? Who are these people who know everything? or more correctly THINK they know everything. what about the pair who bred the parents of a pup they then told the new owner is a crossbred??????????? so how much do they really know after all? how can I or the owner of that pup be expected to respect and look up to people who prove they dont know as much as they thought that did that day?

I understand you feel its the same issue and I agree there are issues which need to be addressed separately and that of course each will impact but I think you miss the main issue and misunderstand what a breed club's purpose is. Some people will feel they are being alienated all groups will feel the need to justify and promote themselves over any other - thats the way of the world not just the dog world . They don't need to find and work with common ideals because those who have traditionally been involved in breed clubs already have common ideals .They breed and show a breed of purebred dogs ,they see themselves as the guardians of their particular breed. Some may be better business people, have more energy or time and encourage pet owners , have fun days, do a bit better at promotion etc etc but the basic core of a purebred breed club is the betterment and maintenance of the breed. Like it or not it is all about pedigrees and dog shows and closed gene pools and health and testing etc and its why I'm never likely to have another go at joining one but that doesnt mean I dont appreciate the need for them or the service they provide to their breed. I know what turns people away - it turned me away but its a numbers game . If there are less breeders, less people showing, less puppies being bred less people passionate enough for a breed to look outside their own back yard and work for it generally and less main register dogs available to enable new people to have a go then there are less likely to be suited to the job. What to do about the bigger picture is needing to be addressed as well but to start with we need more purebred breeders breeding more purebred dogs and selling them to more people on main register. youve got to be kidding I hope? that is exactly what got me targeted for elimination. unless you can change the mindset of the self proclaimed ethicals. no one can sell a main register puppy to a non showi without becoming a target for elimination. At present that is exactly what will get you labled unethical as you are perceived as pandering to supplying to the puppy farmers. No thought of encouraging newbies. well unless they are prepared to pay for the pup but not actually own it, have to agree to co-ownership with the breeder who will make all decision regarding to breed or not, with that animal or not, for starters. many would rather not have one on those terms so head to the plenty available without pedigrees or all the belly crawing first. how to change the mindset? the libbers have done a good job, its going to be very hard to turn that around, back to encouraging newbies like Phil Burgess and her Elfreda kennels, did. so successfully.

wonder if it was like that before KC's got going? before that every one had what they wanted, the only pedigree the one the breeder wrote out for you who where mum dad and the ancestors, just like a german coolie IS STILL,

Thanks for that totally correct in every way I admit my own mistake entirely what can I say hope it's not only a lesson for me but others too may learn to never take thins for granted when its that time I remember years ago reading you should never begin a sentence with the words "if only" but if only I had doulble checked that gate and if only I had been less concerned with my boys comfort and left his chastity belt on but I didn't at that moment and so gotta suffer the consequences what ever they may be It has thought me a big lesson so please don't judge me a bad breeder just a lady who slipped up. Love my dogs totally. You just reminded me of a mystery we had many decades ago. Jody our cattle bitch popped out 9 pups despite the "fact" to our knowledge she had never been mated. she had been penned her entire season.. no chances taken. it was very evident the entire litter was purebred? dna revealed it was by our male. the only conclusion our vet could come to was she had to have been served through the fence???????????????? the damage that could have done to the stupid male doesnt bear thinking about. lesson! have two fences between your male and your bitch.

One of mine delivered 4, two week premmi pups, which died, put her on antibiotics as she still had another 3. she kept them and carried another 13 days and delivered all three hale and hearty , all 3 survived and thrived. one other girl had 6 puppies, all fine, no more labour, all finished, fed them, happy family all curled up slept all day and that night except for dinner break, then popped out pup number seven the next morning? Thought I was seeing things when I realised there were more puppies than there was an hour ago

Moosesmum you have it so right. there are still 'breeds' that are still flourishing which have never been applied for KC recognition.. GERMAN COOLIES for a start. they are the founding "breed" for the Aussie Shepherd that boomeranged back from America some 100 years later after the original dogs arrived in yanki land with a shipload of aussie sheep. then theres the new kid on the block, the mini foxi. yes they have been applied for and slid into the KC as a breed now (tenterfield terrior), but they were created and developed by people who loved their foxi's but wanted a smaller version they are a very 'new breed' one of my chihuahua males was used by one of the early creaters to scale down her foxies, a friend over the road has been breeding his descended from his foxi bitch (not a pedigreeed ancestor in her far as he knew) and a very off type foxi looking chi boy that turned up in one of my litters, Im saying to him, what on earth went wrong with this pup, hes opening his wallet letting the moths out in his haste to buy him???? that was 30 years ago, his pups sell like hot cakes to the neighbourhood. hes never bothered to get his rebadged as tenterfield terriors. You have it spot on.

I for one anyway, think your idea is a great one. Although I have to say, when the phone rings now and its someone looking for a pup, the joy I feel in being able to say, sorry I am retired now, give them some phone numbers of other breeders, then relax knowing have passed the danger onto someone else to supply them a pup is amazing. so much has changed in attitude to a breeder from 40 years ago and so have the breeders attitudes, you have more chance of finding snow in sydney than a breeder willing to sell a M/R pup to a newbie.

merry christmas everyone.

pinched from another forum, similar subject

I am one of the people that spoke of my experience with aborting a litter. I worked for a repo vet for years. There was no WAY I was allowing a mother/son mating to go full term and I'm very happy with the decision I made, it didn't affect her at all! She whelped two litters after the abortion and lived to a very old age. I wasn't being judgemental, just posting of my experience. me too. my father to daughter foal not only wasnt born with two heads, 8 legs andgoodnessknows what else so many seem to think is the result of such breedings. he became a living legend in his field of sport. such matings have been used for centuaries by highly sucessful breeders. its only since the advent of libbers applying the bible to animals all the breast beating started. inbreeding does not cause mutations. any two with a deletrious gene will produce an affected youngster, regardless never have acommon ancestor. yet all i hear is if its deletrious,,,inbreeding caused it... lots of progess back to the dark ages of superstition instead of knowledge again I have youngsters here who are father daughter, mother son, bother sister 1/2 and 3/4 brother and sister and they are getting better with each generation, size wise, conformation wise and in a breed where two scids genes will kill not one ever born...weird eh? mmmmmm n not a club foot among em,,,toddole off to a few shows and see how many club feet there are at the end of a lovely outcrossed pedigree.... soundness is the criteria first and foremost, but who would think it?

you would be amazed at how many and varied the reasons things like this can and do happen. I know for years i nearly went nuts trying to keep my bitches from going into pup . yet would still discover they were in pup. in the end my males and bitches were locked in wire roofed yards so they couldnt climb out, yet still some would be in pup? it was 20 years before i learned from my by now adult child that all those years ago she had been putting them together, then back in their respective pens because she thought i was being cruel keeping them apart when they so obviously wanted to be together. how few remember christs words, "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone." There certainly a lot of saints in the dog world, the woman in that bible section would have surely died that day if she had some here on this forum (met a few at dog shows too) anywhere near that day and availble to "cast" that first stone.

But this is what I am getting at.There is a community problem and we can't face it as a community.If we refuse to own the problems its about WHO is wrong,not what is wrong. So every one tries to stay out of the firing line and NOT draw attention to themselves.Whos left to have a public profile? good question. barring a mirical I dont see a solution , they just wont work together, havent in 40 years, Ive known so many join work their butts off , become breed club secetaries,what ever, raise money for trophies, do months and years of work for the benefit of the breed and the club, then some one with goodness knows what agenda stabs them in the back and Im left with them sobbing wondering "what did I do wrong?" How do I know? because I was usually the one who either gave them a start with a m/r puppy and they wanted to show despite my warnings to enjoy their dog and forget the show scene. or got to know them as they searched for their pup. Usually I think, they have been winning a bit more than some can put up with, then knives start to slide out. the usual reason for making it too hot to handle. the backstabbing that goes on is incredible. Ive had many showi friends, but rarely showed, just hated the , o my darling friend one minute, then you know shes unethical u know. and thats just the tame stuff. Sadly have to take your hat off to the libbers, even if they are busy backstabbing each other, which i expect still goes on, human nature and club culture being what it is. At least they present a united front regardless. Shame isnt it, that the dog fraternity cant take a leaf from the same book.

Wish I was this perfect!!!!! yes ethical are perfect, although if they make a mistake count on it, you wont hear about it.

yep but only if the owner isnt a cliche member,when they are, then it isnt.