asal

Did I miss something? I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding? All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love. change the culture, save the breed. Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline. Can hope for a miricale of course. but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs. just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening

am I missing something ? but why dont you vaccinate every year? especially if your working in a vet environment and fostering dogs, visiting farms etc....also if you dont do it every year then wouldnt the cost be minimal anyway? once you pass the overvaccinating line like my friends cat, it cost her 7,000 over 3 years and 3 boosters before even her own vet wondered if the the vaccinations were the problem??? stopped the yearly boosters and he lived to 21. although she was still paying her credit card off for the next 18 months. No offer of a refund considering it turned out the vets yearly vaccination reminders did all the damage?

When the members of a breed club start saying the same as the AR activists they are shooting themselves in the foot in their zeal to be seen as 'ethical' "Its unethical to breed a litter if you dont intend to keep them" in the 70's most who bred, did breed to sell their pups, thousands of pensioners made 'pin' money from their pups to get by on the pension. "its unethical to sell on main register if its not show quality" now thats even been morphed to "if it cant become an australian champion it shouldnt be on main register" in the 70's any pup that was considered a credit to its breeder was on main register. it didnt HAVE to be good enough to show, it didnt HAVE to be good enough to become a CHAMPION. aLL it had to have was reasonable conformation and type, there used to be three types, Showing was one, Breeding was the other that still received Main registration . The third was pet. There was no limit rego, the pet buyer received a typed or written copy of the pedigree. The other two categories recived their Full Registration Papers. Somewhere along the line the breeding quality dog got lost. INCREDIBALE and SHOCKING it may be, but its a fact that two dogs incapable of becoming Australin Champions can and have for decades managed to produce as good and better pups than Champion to Champion mating. now with todays pack of gullables all the once registered breeding quality dogs are all on limit, even the majority of show quality dogs are on limit. Take a look at how many desperate to be Ethical's even advertise they will never sell a main register pup, that they only register on main what they intend to keep? long as these people continue this mind set the slide into extinction of the breeds will continue. Ninety percent of new breeders havent a clue about genetics and selection. dna tests, hip scores etc are only skimming the edges of what a "breeder" needs to learn and select for and perfection is never going to happen. thats why the art of selecting two breeding quality, (not perfect) without the same fault in both, but different strenghts as well is being lost along with the breeds. but hey im a dinosour wasting my time trying to educate people who think they already know everything once they have passed their breeders test. There is a very very true saying. YOU ONLY STOP LEARNING WHEN YOUR DEAD! trouble is , it is as if once a person decides they have become 'ethical' its becominganother word for brain/learning dead.

Do you honestly think this is a one off? Only the other day I was talking to an rspca specil constable, and guess what? most of the complaints about breeders come from??????????????? fellow breeders. its been the way to get rid of what others who consider themselves the "guardians of their breed" and its been going on for decades. yes its nice the say I brought it on myself. Yes I did. I didnt follow the party line. why should I? Who are these people who know everything? or more correctly THINK they know everything. what about the pair who bred the parents of a pup they then told the new owner is a crossbred??????????? so how much do they really know after all? how can I or the owner of that pup be expected to respect and look up to people who prove they dont know as much as they thought that did that day?

I understand you feel its the same issue and I agree there are issues which need to be addressed separately and that of course each will impact but I think you miss the main issue and misunderstand what a breed club's purpose is. Some people will feel they are being alienated all groups will feel the need to justify and promote themselves over any other - thats the way of the world not just the dog world . They don't need to find and work with common ideals because those who have traditionally been involved in breed clubs already have common ideals .They breed and show a breed of purebred dogs ,they see themselves as the guardians of their particular breed. Some may be better business people, have more energy or time and encourage pet owners , have fun days, do a bit better at promotion etc etc but the basic core of a purebred breed club is the betterment and maintenance of the breed. Like it or not it is all about pedigrees and dog shows and closed gene pools and health and testing etc and its why I'm never likely to have another go at joining one but that doesnt mean I dont appreciate the need for them or the service they provide to their breed. I know what turns people away - it turned me away but its a numbers game . If there are less breeders, less people showing, less puppies being bred less people passionate enough for a breed to look outside their own back yard and work for it generally and less main register dogs available to enable new people to have a go then there are less likely to be suited to the job. What to do about the bigger picture is needing to be addressed as well but to start with we need more purebred breeders breeding more purebred dogs and selling them to more people on main register. youve got to be kidding I hope? that is exactly what got me targeted for elimination. unless you can change the mindset of the self proclaimed ethicals. no one can sell a main register puppy to a non showi without becoming a target for elimination. At present that is exactly what will get you labled unethical as you are perceived as pandering to supplying to the puppy farmers. No thought of encouraging newbies. well unless they are prepared to pay for the pup but not actually own it, have to agree to co-ownership with the breeder who will make all decision regarding to breed or not, with that animal or not, for starters. many would rather not have one on those terms so head to the plenty available without pedigrees or all the belly crawing first. how to change the mindset? the libbers have done a good job, its going to be very hard to turn that around, back to encouraging newbies like Phil Burgess and her Elfreda kennels, did. so successfully.

wonder if it was like that before KC's got going? before that every one had what they wanted, the only pedigree the one the breeder wrote out for you who where mum dad and the ancestors, just like a german coolie IS STILL,

Thanks for that totally correct in every way I admit my own mistake entirely what can I say hope it's not only a lesson for me but others too may learn to never take thins for granted when its that time I remember years ago reading you should never begin a sentence with the words "if only" but if only I had doulble checked that gate and if only I had been less concerned with my boys comfort and left his chastity belt on but I didn't at that moment and so gotta suffer the consequences what ever they may be It has thought me a big lesson so please don't judge me a bad breeder just a lady who slipped up. Love my dogs totally. You just reminded me of a mystery we had many decades ago. Jody our cattle bitch popped out 9 pups despite the "fact" to our knowledge she had never been mated. she had been penned her entire season.. no chances taken. it was very evident the entire litter was purebred? dna revealed it was by our male. the only conclusion our vet could come to was she had to have been served through the fence???????????????? the damage that could have done to the stupid male doesnt bear thinking about. lesson! have two fences between your male and your bitch.

One of mine delivered 4, two week premmi pups, which died, put her on antibiotics as she still had another 3. she kept them and carried another 13 days and delivered all three hale and hearty , all 3 survived and thrived. one other girl had 6 puppies, all fine, no more labour, all finished, fed them, happy family all curled up slept all day and that night except for dinner break, then popped out pup number seven the next morning? Thought I was seeing things when I realised there were more puppies than there was an hour ago

Moosesmum you have it so right. there are still 'breeds' that are still flourishing which have never been applied for KC recognition.. GERMAN COOLIES for a start. they are the founding "breed" for the Aussie Shepherd that boomeranged back from America some 100 years later after the original dogs arrived in yanki land with a shipload of aussie sheep. then theres the new kid on the block, the mini foxi. yes they have been applied for and slid into the KC as a breed now (tenterfield terrior), but they were created and developed by people who loved their foxi's but wanted a smaller version they are a very 'new breed' one of my chihuahua males was used by one of the early creaters to scale down her foxies, a friend over the road has been breeding his descended from his foxi bitch (not a pedigreeed ancestor in her far as he knew) and a very off type foxi looking chi boy that turned up in one of my litters, Im saying to him, what on earth went wrong with this pup, hes opening his wallet letting the moths out in his haste to buy him???? that was 30 years ago, his pups sell like hot cakes to the neighbourhood. hes never bothered to get his rebadged as tenterfield terriors. You have it spot on.

I for one anyway, think your idea is a great one. Although I have to say, when the phone rings now and its someone looking for a pup, the joy I feel in being able to say, sorry I am retired now, give them some phone numbers of other breeders, then relax knowing have passed the danger onto someone else to supply them a pup is amazing. so much has changed in attitude to a breeder from 40 years ago and so have the breeders attitudes, you have more chance of finding snow in sydney than a breeder willing to sell a M/R pup to a newbie.

merry christmas everyone.

pinched from another forum, similar subject

I am one of the people that spoke of my experience with aborting a litter. I worked for a repo vet for years. There was no WAY I was allowing a mother/son mating to go full term and I'm very happy with the decision I made, it didn't affect her at all! She whelped two litters after the abortion and lived to a very old age. I wasn't being judgemental, just posting of my experience. me too. my father to daughter foal not only wasnt born with two heads, 8 legs andgoodnessknows what else so many seem to think is the result of such breedings. he became a living legend in his field of sport. such matings have been used for centuaries by highly sucessful breeders. its only since the advent of libbers applying the bible to animals all the breast beating started. inbreeding does not cause mutations. any two with a deletrious gene will produce an affected youngster, regardless never have acommon ancestor. yet all i hear is if its deletrious,,,inbreeding caused it... lots of progess back to the dark ages of superstition instead of knowledge again I have youngsters here who are father daughter, mother son, bother sister 1/2 and 3/4 brother and sister and they are getting better with each generation, size wise, conformation wise and in a breed where two scids genes will kill not one ever born...weird eh? mmmmmm n not a club foot among em,,,toddole off to a few shows and see how many club feet there are at the end of a lovely outcrossed pedigree.... soundness is the criteria first and foremost, but who would think it?

you would be amazed at how many and varied the reasons things like this can and do happen. I know for years i nearly went nuts trying to keep my bitches from going into pup . yet would still discover they were in pup. in the end my males and bitches were locked in wire roofed yards so they couldnt climb out, yet still some would be in pup? it was 20 years before i learned from my by now adult child that all those years ago she had been putting them together, then back in their respective pens because she thought i was being cruel keeping them apart when they so obviously wanted to be together. how few remember christs words, "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone." There certainly a lot of saints in the dog world, the woman in that bible section would have surely died that day if she had some here on this forum (met a few at dog shows too) anywhere near that day and availble to "cast" that first stone.

But this is what I am getting at.There is a community problem and we can't face it as a community.If we refuse to own the problems its about WHO is wrong,not what is wrong. So every one tries to stay out of the firing line and NOT draw attention to themselves.Whos left to have a public profile? good question. barring a mirical I dont see a solution , they just wont work together, havent in 40 years, Ive known so many join work their butts off , become breed club secetaries,what ever, raise money for trophies, do months and years of work for the benefit of the breed and the club, then some one with goodness knows what agenda stabs them in the back and Im left with them sobbing wondering "what did I do wrong?" How do I know? because I was usually the one who either gave them a start with a m/r puppy and they wanted to show despite my warnings to enjoy their dog and forget the show scene. or got to know them as they searched for their pup. Usually I think, they have been winning a bit more than some can put up with, then knives start to slide out. the usual reason for making it too hot to handle. the backstabbing that goes on is incredible. Ive had many showi friends, but rarely showed, just hated the , o my darling friend one minute, then you know shes unethical u know. and thats just the tame stuff. Sadly have to take your hat off to the libbers, even if they are busy backstabbing each other, which i expect still goes on, human nature and club culture being what it is. At least they present a united front regardless. Shame isnt it, that the dog fraternity cant take a leaf from the same book.

Wish I was this perfect!!!!! yes ethical are perfect, although if they make a mistake count on it, you wont hear about it.

yep but only if the owner isnt a cliche member,when they are, then it isnt.

OOPPS

why on earth at that late stage? let her homones alone and just put then down on arrival? (if your so desperate to be ethical) Ive lost babies into 7 months term and you have no idea what a mess that makes of your body, try it some time before you do it to your dog who cant talk.

once upon a time drugs were tested for safety before released onto the market. where did the change slip in we now need to select for those whose genes can cope with it? gene change to tolerate changes in chemical attack even food composition changes dont happen even over a 250 year time span as gluten intolerance is becomming ever more realised to be far more widespread than previously realised. a disturbing number of humans have not evolved to cope with the change in gluden levels in the 'modern ' cereals. its now been discovered horses are having similar digestion problems effecting their health and well being, again their systems have not adapted to cope with the rising gluten levels in cultivated cerels over the 250 yr time frame its been "improved" from the ancient grains found in egyption buriel sites. apparently to evolution 250 years isnt a second in evolutionary time frame, so if digestion genes havnt evolved to cope with that does make you wonder how much time is needed to evolve to cope with climate change, scary thought

As show dog said "I know what I would like to say but I would be hung and quartered on here for doing so, I blame part of this problem on the limited register good in theory bad in practice. thanks to the stupid limit register even people who should know better are telling not only newbies, but themselves, that MAIN REGISTER means the pup can attain champion status and if it doesnt or doesnt always win challenges then take it back to the breeder for a refund. Even an ex breeder did exactly that know full well main register cant guarantee any such thing, stupidly i GAVE HER THE poor DOG in question, yet when it was nil awarded twice because its adult bottom teeth hadnt come in at the same angle it ws as a pup and ended up level bite instead of scissor as before. even my so called friends who breed, show, AND judge, told me I had to at least give her half what the dog was worth back IF I WANTED TO KEEP MY REPUTATION. She loved it so much she couldnt give it back to me fast enough. Do any of us want to have a pup go to such a one? dumped the second it strayes even a little from perfect? Ive seen numerous champions of less quality than that one, capriole legs, mouths out u name it then you hear you dont fault judge, you look at the good points. HOW STUPID OF THEM ALL, they cant guarantee their own dogs teeth either the idiots. I later learned she had acquired another pup and the two played tug a war,,,a guaranteed way to influence the direction of growing teeth. so what was happening to his teeth wasnt genetic anyway. take away the rag and the ropes he would still have correct bite. he had 60 points already, excellent example of the breed AND was still winning more challanges than nil awards anyway. these are the people setting or telling others WHAT the example should be, yet do not do it themselves. had a phone call from a very irate buyer of a pup from the very person who used their authority and status to influence me to go against my better judgement and not tell them all to go jump. the pup sent, sold for show and breeding perposes was so out at the mouth at 8 weeks old no way it was ever going to be any but a pet quality. yet, the learned one no longer was answerin the phone to this buyer or returning calls. do as i say but not as I do , the showie set are messing the nest themselves, the libbers must be beside themselves with joy.

Exactly. OP, be very wary of veterinary 'minimal risk' quiffs. It's all stats and figures until its your dog and your dilemma ... and by then veterinary repro theory has moved on, and your dilemma is a shrug shoulders "oh we have advanced a lot since then ... we now recommend ..." EXACTLY. they dont even take responsibility when a vaccination batch is faulty, not that they are at fault, but I know from devestating experience when 7 out of nine died overnight, 8th died that afternoon, the bills for saving the 9th he asked could he keep her as he had become so attached during the weeks she (literally) lived in his pocket on a drip. No doubting his dedication to saving her. Not a word was said about compensation let alone return of the vaccination fee I paid to keep them safe. not kill them outright. only learned months later that batch killed 600 before manufacturer recalled that batch. my friend worked there and spotted the recall, gave me the batch mumber and it tallied with the stickers on my cards. I have since learnt the vaccination companies rarely tell the vets why theres a recall so they dont have to compensate the owners..nice eh? as for the vets who will do every test and check knowing the patient has less than 10percent chance of recovery , yet only tells the owner,we will do our best to save him/her, not a hint there is 90 percent that death is going to happen. then pat the mug shelling out thousands for the great efforts made to 'save' their pet. So sorry, we did our best, some times these things happen. Nice fat invoice though and the owner never knew the real odds. only recently were quoted "$3,000 for the necessary needed intensive care, or wont survive",thats not counting all the scans and examination costs alrready done, a family friend with medical experience looked at the scans and asked, whats the odds of recovery, after a bit of thought the reply? Ten percent. The pet already had lived 1/3 longer than the breed average. vets these days are not trained to tell you the practical. They are trained to do all they can regardless of the cost or the low possibility of a successful outcome. Some only prolong life for another few weeks. As one more honest vet said to me, over my unconsious cat with impacted bowel. "I can ream her out for you for $700 but that isnt removing whater is the root cause. Chances are you will be back in two weeks for the same op. Her body is shutting down and I feel her day has arrived." She was 18. She had arrived as an adult all those years ago. We later learnt her real age was 20. so the old girl had a good innings. I was so grateful to that vet for telling me the truth. Most today do not, they are taught to prolong whatever the costs. Pet owners hearts rule their head, but they should still be given ALL the facts before making the decision

So even though this post is 6 months old. who in heck made MDBA God? Why would they want to send MDBA a copy of the pedigree AND post a copy of the pedigree on DOL? Thought you werent allowed to promote the MDBA on DOL. Of course people always have things to learn but I think you overstepped the boundaries in what you have said. MDBA is not the be end and all of everything. according to my vet, the ingredients in some vaccines have very deterimental effects on a puppy health and immune system and its nothing to do with the pups genes. thats where the grey area sneaks in. do we relly think collies and murry grey cattle are defective because they HAVE INTOLERANCE issues with ivermectin? same scenario, different chemical

x2 You may have a good chance of curing the problem and having no more issues once it has grown up... You could even show the dog once the condition is cured BUT you have to consider what you will do if this doesn't happen and you are still fighting this horrible condition in 12 months time. As for "the breeder won't want it back" - if the pup has been purchased as a breeding prospect then it doesn't really matter what the breeder might want - it is not fit for purpose and you would have a very good case for a refund. Generalised Demodex is very serious and no ethical breeder would brush it aside as anything less. (The jury's still out on localised Demodex) Honestly I would take a step back. Of course you love your pup, but do you love the pup more than you love the good relationship with your husband? If the vet thinks this is serious and could be an on going (lifetime) problem then I would suggest a second opinion - ask your vet for suggestions - and reconsider when you have this additional information. I don't think anyone can say for sure if this will be a lifetime problem, but the severity could be an indicator. Sorry you have found yourself in this situation. Been in this myself. Bought a stunning potential stud boy, except not long after he arrived at 8 weeks hair began falling out and hot weeping skin began, my vet suspected the pup was reacting to the vaccinations, which was crashing his immune system. resulting in the same thing, Demodectic mange. Some pups after ivermectin treatment recover fully after the immume system has had a chance to recover from the vaccinations stress. some will always need to be permantently on low dose ivermectin for life and in my belief anyway not to be bred from in case the low immume system is hereditory. its not easy to know which scenario you are looking at until the pup is months past its last vaccination and no more problems recur after the ivermection is stopped. you will certainly know within 3 months if my experience is anything to go by, in my case the breeder not only refused to refund or exchange. even boasted this as a 'sign' of his good breeding???? yep still a breeder too.

Yep thats what they tell me too. except how come its a one size fits all, no exceptions, even when the bitch has 3 or less pups? what about the one pup litter bitch? one size does not fit all. why should the one pup litter bitch be restricted to 6 pups yet the 16 pup litter bitch gets to produce 96 pups? whatever happened to common sense??