asal

if the bitch is in good health and good condition the code of ethics is as much a load of rubbish as "ethical breeder only produce a litter to keep" look how few are being born now, too little to even keep some breeds so low in registered numbers to stay geneticaly viable let alone someone wanting a pet has only the byb's with any for sale. Ask any good repo vet, its no problem for the dogs. breeders are being blindsided by the animal libber brigade, bitches should have their litters young then retired. not this one a year or 2 in 18 months which means if you did want a 6th permitted litter shes twice the age she would be if best practice was followed instead pandering to the luni fringe. just read up how concerned gynacologists are over the risks to ageing human mothers and the significantly increased risk of ageing eggs producing DNA damaged babies. Downs syndrome isnt restricted to humans............Same applies to dogs and every other breeding species. Most damaged DNA means unviable embroyo, but the likes of Downs does not only survive so does the damaged dna sequence which can then become part of the gene pool if they have babies...if its a downs puppie? who will get the blame? London to a brick the breeder will either be said to have been unethical 0r it wouldnt have happend. or probably slated to being caused by the ever useful bin to throw any of thes mistakes into "ITS INBRED" basket. two downs can produce homozygous downs....every progeny then is downes. This is just using one mutated gene as an example,,, read up on the subject of ageing eggs.

OH am so sorry, I put my previous post not realising you had lost her. We are in mourning tonight, our daughters horse benny had to be put down, at only 23, we could see something was wrong but not what, the vet said his system was shutting down, better he be put down before he began to suffer. lots of tears here tonight. RIP benni

What kind of 'chemo' are they using? the nano cell therapy is far less damaging to your dogs body and FAR more damaging to the cancer. Ive seen the results for brain tumours and its extraordinary. theres a vet near them who has done a lot of work with brain cancer and non hodgsons lymphoma. its been so successfull in remission in dogs its now been released for human trials. a friends oncolagist told her he cant wait for the day its the first line of defence instead of the last. they had had dogs with clear MRI'S after treating them for brain cancer and still in remission 12 months later and still clear. amazing and two aussies discovered it.. yay. http://www.engeneic.com/edv_technology.html here is australia's very own dynamic duo Jenny and Himanshu http://www.engeneic.com/profile.html Australian Story , has done two about them and their discovery. best wishes for your girl.., are you in sydey? the vet who has done a lot of work with the nanocells is in land cove I understand Not too far from their lab.

spot on. unfortunately doesnt seem like many people have the brains to turn it around. too scared of being deemed unethical if they dont follow the "party line" and too slow to realise the line didnt come from fellow breeders in the first place. it is amazing how many people follow like lambs to the slaughter and never question who is leading the line?

trouble is doing that is something of a minefield for the puppy buyer, go to a show with their new puppy if it came from a breeder tht doesnt show, can find them being told its a crossbred and they have been dudded. the purebred worlds greatest enemies are not just the animals libbers but the self labled 'ethicals' they are so busy destroying the reputation and name of anyone they either dont like personally or have decided doesnt fit their notions of ethical they are too selfish to realise they not only destroy the reputation and credibility of any other registered breeder but themselves as well to the hapless victums whose only crime was to purchase a pup from someone who isnt a clique member, it was happening in the 70's when Elfreda kennel puppy buyers received an icy reception and sady is still going on today. I still enjoy remembering the realisation of what they have just been tricked (its a fact that some adolecant puppies like adolescant teens go through some real unglies periods, aka the ugly duckling story) by the two people who where suckered in to agreeing a newbies pup was a x bred and called me to either replace with a show quality pup or return the purchase price that they bred the parents.... I know who was laughing fit to wet themselves, the breeder to set them up and disliked both, and me and didnt realise who I got the parents from in the first place. the self proclaimed ETHICALS are helping the animal libbers destroy themselves, I doubt they have the brains to ever see it for themselves. .

BANG ON. along with the desperateratiom by anyone who does have a purebred with main rego to NEVER let a newbie have main rego in case they puppy farm it. as well the now wide held belief to be ethicl you must be able to say "I never sell my puppies on main register" Ethical to me, has become as much a swear word as the now acceptable f*#% once was. There is still the bright side, I suspect I will live to see, soon every one will be ethical because no one can find a M/R pup anyway. Still get the giggles over an acquaintance who was one of the ultra ethicals....nope never sold a M/R pup. went on holidays and left dogs with relative. one came in season and the neighbouring dogs started being a nusisance...so got em all desexed...vet was sooooo helpful. Well she can never slip from her ethical perch now, not a soul she could get a descandant from to get started again. To me they arent Ethical but Deadend, breeders.

WHATS the odds then the job will be to make sure it doesnt get moths, or left in the sun too long and damaged...and up for pet cruelty after all :laugh:

Please don't generalise Steve, a lot of breed clubs do their very best for their members. Even though we are a minority breed we run a very successful club and have a large membership. Not all breed clubs are the same, the fact that you had a negative experience with one club doesn't give you the right to tar all clubs with the same brush. Miranda Im not going to get into the crap here because I dont think its in the best interests of purebred dogs but my experience with breed clubs is not just about the ones I have been a member of and I get why some people don't have a great experience with them generally. Steve, just suppose I posted: 'I owned a couple of Maremmas and I'd rather own just about any other breed than ever go there again. Nasty temperament and where you see some of the worst traits in dogs' Would you not have replied requesting me not to generalise and tar all Maremmas with the same brush? And what would you think if I replied 'Steve I'm not going to get into the crap here because I don't think it's in the best interests of purebred dogs but my experience with Maremma is not just about the ones I've owned and I get why some people don't have a great experience with them generally' Need I say more? Anyway my apologies to all for going OT, I will now bow out of this thread :) The difference is Steve is speaking from personal experience while you are speaking as a person in denial. Oh dear it looks as if I'll have to bow in again :laugh: Of course I'm speaking from personal experience, I've been a general/committee member of breed clubs for nearly 40 years :) Yes, Steve. is right. it was a fellow member of my breed club who set the seizure of stringy up to get me kicked out wth a conviction. I constantly tried to get them to understand "the more diminutave preferred" was destruction of the breed to ceaser only deliveries. only pedigree dogs exposed achieved the deletion. Show breeders seem to either wear blinkers or too scred to speak up ? so the stuff that gives fodder to the libbers (I know I promised to never post again.) its tough to read this stuff and see how IGNORANT everyone seems to be of what is going on

dont feel you said the wrong thing, actually you will be getting the last laught. IF AND I MEAN IF? There are any ANKC members left in the next 10 years, they will have to do it. it was only the existance of thousands of stumpy tailed cattle dogs that the breed is again an ankc breed, well at the moment. although unless the hunt and kill reg'd breeders by the animal libber and they who must not be named. its lucky for those who like them they are safe and well in the great unwashed enclave of the unknown and untracables. At the rate its going, dogs will be a black market, cant advertise any to sell, it will be word of mouth only. think im being alarmist? think again. my treatment when that officer turned up to "inspect" a registered breeder, changed like from dark to light, the minute i was no longer one of THEM. one second I was the enemy to be found lacking at all costs to cosy chat and nice to meet you. real eye opener. the chnge when it was obvious i had no breeding dogs anymore. chilling too.

Didnt Mary Magdalene it was said, had a previous profession? Whatever happended to he that is without sin can cast the first stone?

Yes, I read that, since when should she have to put up with her past being thrown at her add nausium. Frankly given her past she would probably be a far better cop for it. I know of one whose favourite lark was to zoom past a cop or coppers.. a long possie after him was even more fun.. then leave em in a trail of dust. his name ended up becoming one of the legends of the force. nearly 20 years after retirement he was still recognised whereever he went. As one chap said on a recent forum, "Anyone remember a Sunday morning current affairs program many years ago, they did a story about the Hume Highway.It started with the reporter riding in a Cubeio F10 or 12.The reporter may mention of Tom the driver turned white.Then they had Tom on.He drove a mint white Falcon 500 wagon like Matt had on Skippy.All the bells and whistles.He was driving it across the little harbour bridge, telling tales when he was in the force, including booking his father in law. " Spent his life saving lives. Somehow I suspect Kim would have done the same

apologies. if you lot cant figure the obvious anything said is pointless anyway. you reap what not only what you sow,in this case what others have added to the paddock as well, the comming crop looks 'interesting'

You really need to delete that word "supposedly" "absolutely" is far more accurate. I am trying so hard to not read, let alone post anything,about that lot in particuluar. probalby should never drop in and peek.

as already said they filmed some of their goons chasing a sheep with years of wool on it, How it survived would have had to be a miracle. AND they put it to air????????????? No sheep owner would have treated one of their or anyone elses sheep so badly, any farm kid caught behaving like that would have had the strap and no dinner. as for the Peta influence. HOW MANY times have I said the RSPCA was so concerned they sent letters to all members warning that Peta was intending to infiltrate and to sign up every family member and friends possible. The Lady who showed me the letter worked for one of the liberal politions, had been in the office on some business, cant even remember how it came up but there it was ..in writing no less.

you have no idea what you are missing I have two cockateils button and birdie, no way i can have my cup of tea without birdi enjoying some too. when my daugher had braces, both found them irrisistable, just had to try and peel them off her teeth the second they realised she and SOMETHING on her teeth. POOR KID had to keep her lips firmly closed if either were loose or they would make a beeline for her. one afternoon i didnt realise she was in the loungeroom asleep. i let them out.. minutes later I heard muffled screams from my daughter. she darent close her mouth as stupid birdi had her head in there trying to pull the braces off?????? nope she didnt stop trying even with my daughters screaming to me for help the noise in her little featherd ears in there must have been pretty deafening surely? They may be little, may be fragile (as in could have had her head bitten off) but determined....not even mission impossible was going to deter this feathered superhero from saving my daughters teeth from the metal invader. bet your bippi on that one

I used to have a pet galah many years ago, was looking after a friends dobe . one day I heard the dobe yelping and ran outside to the weirdest sight. Sita was running around the house yelping. at the end of her tail was this grey and pink blurr with wings outspread ?????????? Nope wsnt chasing the dog, as first seemed. Beak was holding the end of her tail. neither would explain what had happened when I finally caught Sita doing her third lap around the place full steam trying to get away from charlie. Had to make charlie let go of her tail though. Then charlie huffed off. Sita never went anywhere near charlie again anyway, even if I never discovered the details leading to that day. Did find the cage on its side door open, so suppose can make guesses

The dogs are still barking they are just quieter, why is that sad? They still yap their heads off. Sad is having an irate neighbour on your doorstep or the local law officers insisting you dispose of your dogs. I used to be dead against it but after looking after a whole kennel of them when a friend ended up in ICU after a heart attack. (23 of em) I was astonished. they can bark all right, the difference is it cant carry for blocks only metrs. the dogs are happy, can yap all they want or be quiet all they want, and no one is annoyed, I ended up with 7 of them when she was not well enough to have more than a few back, friends took most of them but had to laugh when the carry cages of the ones allocated to me by the other friends were all the biters... I remember the reason now they were all done, a neighbour had a baby and without even saying a word to my friend lodged simultanious complaints with the council, rspca and animal welfare. to have all three knock on your door the same day had a pretty bad effect on her all right, to keep her dogs and peace with the neighbour they were all debarked. frankly i doubt it was coincidence the heart attack occurred only weeks later, I for one think it was the stress of the all out attack by the neighbour with absolutley no warning they weere unhappy about any noise comming from the dogs, they had been neighbours for 5 years without a complaint made till that day when all guns arrived blazing.

Description of a weed: a plant in the wrong place. Description of a fox: an animal in the wrong place. The damage of both to the environment they move into is catastrophic. Foxes are sneaky vile little critters who get into places where a bullet cannot go, but the carbon monoxide finds them and off to sleep they go. The natural environment needs this to happen. Souff cant help wondering if the chap who trained those dog shouldnt be contacting the Tassi government asap. Forget where I spotted it but they have confirmed by dna of scats found there that there are at least 17 individual foxes and they are planning massive drops of 1080 the dogs finding the dens would be a far better way surely? surely the last thing they should be risking is 1080'ing the devil's?

Thanks. She is an amazing lady. It cut to the bone what many others at shows had to say about her. I was thrilled to be able to take a litter of puppies directly descended from her dogs not that long ago, she was so pleased to see them. As you know she retired quite a while ago. She taught me so so much. Even better, finally not that long ago one of her detractors all those years ago, were boasting how lucky they were to discover the new pup they had bought was descended from Elfreda...LOL Couldnt get away fast enough to tell Phil. Finally recognised for the quality she always strived to produce. Unfortunately the things I listed are what Ive either read on this forum and most of them I have heard personally from puppy buyers. Although, many are right, most of the phone calls to the animal welfare groups about complaints against a breeder, are from fellow breeders, even my letter from the minister of agriculture told me that. I cant believe it was 12 years ago now, those who think I am bitter are mistaken, its fear I cant cope with. Until that day I thought as long as you kept them well and healthy as Richard Amery said "you have nothing to fear" except since there was nothing wrong with my dogs and they all did comply with said "code" it didnt save him from being sized after all, because there's an out clause. "form the opinion" and your dog still dissappears, the only good thing is if it doesnt die under the aneshetic and nothing chargable is found you do get it back. Not sure which made the fear worse, discovering your "guilty until proven innocent" or even when was proven innocent, the continuos mutterings of "where there's smoke theres fire"... I do hope one day people will remember the reason they have their dogs is because they like them, so do the other people who have dogs, believe it or not so many people with such a common interest should be friends . Anne of Green Gables liked to think that way, pity more dont. Surely it shouldnt be restricted to book characters? The majority of people who get one of your puppies are great people and become family members, lets face it they have one of your dogs. so it does tend to be a life time link. But there are enough of the other types thats its just not fun anymore. As for the people who expect a lifetime guarantee. hand's up who has been asked for that? I doubt I am the only one, I am not talking about not being ready to refund or replace if there was a serious something come up your vet missed in its first year. These people are talking 5 and more years, I asked just to be sure. Never wrote down each so not sure how many , but at least half a dozen a year the past 3 years. the last year would amount to nearly 1 in 5 so someone is busy spruking it. Although my suspicion is its someone who either hasnt a clue and will be getting a shock to discover seemingly perfect parents dont reliably produce perfect babies, or doesent intend being around if a claim does arrive. Although these three are the ones I've seen here many times , although no idea who the people are since everyone only has a nick name. so no idea if they are breeders, pet owners or Peta types. 3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold. 4)Do not breed to sell. 5) Breed only for your own next generation. I know many newbies believe to the ethical they need to comply. (Ive met them and listened to them trying so hard to be what they think it means to be ethical) So there is no chance of any of them becoming an Elfreda quality breeder. I do think these questions need to be addressed somehow some way so the future has a chance to be much brighter than I suspect is shaping for future generations. Then there's that UTTERLY STUPID, mindset that blames every findable genetic or congenital fault is the fault of inbreeding..................... If the parents dont display whatever it is, then London to a brick if the fault is genetic then it is recessive. Learn your genetic's, a recessive HAS to be present in both parents. How many know that many deletrious genes are what are termed poly genic? (The term “polygenic inheritance” is used to refer to the inheritance of quantitative traits, traits which are influenced by multiple genes, not just one. In addition to involving multiple genes, polygenic inheritance also looks at the role of environment in someone's development. Because many traits are spread out across a continuum, rather than being divided into black and white differences, polygenic inheritance helps to explain the way in which these traits are inherited and focused. A related concept is pleiotropy, an instance where one gene influences multiple traits. Early Mendelian genetics focused on very simple genetic traits which could be explained by a single gene. For example, a flower might appear in either orange or yellow form, with no gradation between the colors. By studying plants and the ways in which they mutated, early researchers were able to learn more about the gene which determined flower color. However, by the early twentieth century, people were well aware that most traits are far too complex to be determined by a single gene, and the idea of polygenic inheritance was born.) Yet time and again I hear some one say the faults in that pup are due to inbreeding......... Even when you can look at 6 generations and nope not one common ancestor. Actually it still happens when the parents arent even the same breed, wonder where the film clip is of Rob Zammit with that cute little designer dog with the luxating patella's, think it had two groin hernia's as well as a navel hernia and something else? cant remember at the moment, could hardly walk but it certainly wasnt inbred but it was a genetic mess ,, so much for the wonders of hybrid vigour in designer/mutt dogs preventing the expression of the very genes inbreeding is supposed to cause. How can that be? Because they dont HAVE to be related to carry deletrious genes. By the same token if the two parents do not carry a particular bad gene, guess what? you can put them father to daugher, mother to son, brother to sister and what isn't there CAN'T turn up.. Inbreeding cannot create something if it isnt there! LEARN for yourself, instead of believing "experts" who havent bothered to learn for themself, Badam Library at Sydney Uni if FULL of books to learn from, AS is The Stack. Don't believe me, don't belive the ones telling you the opposite to what Ive just said. Learn for yourself, I did, ITS ALL THERE..... those who say all evil is in inbreeding havent done the study.j They are parroting what they have heard, not what is in proven genetic research. Elfreda knew all this and more. Well I have tried (hopefully for my sanity the last time) to get u lot to think for yourselves and learn. Its up to you learn, learn to help each other instead of thinking someone is out to get you so better get them first and looking for a good spot to sink the knife. The libber groups are busy doing that for you. Why help em? Morning all. hopefully this is my last post... well im going to try to keep my word.........got to retire some time.

As if that would ever happen! *cough* Gee what a good dog, Honey, my friends greyhound, wouldnt leave enough room for two people, even one is squished.

Havent even touched on the expectation of many for that LIFETIME guarantee, when they get their pup. I know I did ask one person who asked me if my pups came with said Lifetime guarantee, suggested they stick to getting their pup from the one who offered that. Would greatly appreciate to know who is that breeder to see if they still have any in five years, since it was long discovered the majority of new breeders are no longer, within that time frame. As I asked the gentleman concerned. Can YOU lifetime guarantee your child. There is a very famous line used by breeders of all livestock the world over "Put the Best to the Best and HOPE for the best." Why? because Hope is all you have...there are no guarantees in mother nature. Common sense isnt expected in the dog world is it? Fortunately. I am no longer a breeder. WHAT A RELIEF.

Rather glad, THOSE threads have been axed. But the sentiments expressed has had me thinking for days especially some of the out of this world expectations voiced by some. If I understand correctly many of the main points brought up, to be ethical. 1)The best for the breed being priority number one. 2)All health testing possible being done. 3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold. 4)Do not breed to sell. 5) Breed only for your own next generation. 6)Do not keep in Kennels or they cannot be properly socialised. 7)Do raise your pups in the home and keep your dogs in the home. There were a lot of other stuff but I didnt write them down, will add later as and if I remember. Now the problems with just this short list is for starters 1)The best for the breed being priority number one. Who is going to decide WHAT is best for the breed? Show ribbons, Champion Certificates? Self Whelping, Maternal instinct's? so the bitch will and actually can, deliver and raise her own pups without a vet always on standby? Dont assume the two go together. I know quite a few Champion lines that cannot self whelp or feed their own pups. So is the one who decides to select for a self procrreating line with showability second on the list, unethical? I know when I was newbie, the breeder I bought my first pup from was a professional breeder, she sold on average 250 puppies in any given year. She didnt want to keep her vet in the manner to which she would like to be accostumed herself. The place was, well to me anyway. AMAZING, as you entered the yard there was this HUGE shed, at second look it was 2/3rds wire, sides, and roof. Over the wire was mosquito mesh, the wire again. Why? Because no dog inside that area had to worry about ever seeing a mozzie. the other 1/3 rd was a fully enclosed area with a long hallway down the centre. On your left was the runs from memory 16 of them. think they were about 25 to 30 foot long and 4 or 5 feet wide. Floor was concrete and hosed up to 3 times a day from what I saw when I was there anyway. The part of the runs that was under cover of the shed housed the individual kennels the dogs slept in. From 2 to 4 kennels to each run. There were no gates just a step over wall.(we are talking chihuahua's here.) Think I counted 120 adults including the males. Never forget Elfreda Teddy Bear.....stunning. On the other side of the hall were three doors, one to the office with all records, desk phone etc. The next door was the whelping runs. They were individual pens up off the floor on legs sort of like a large rabbit or guinea pig cage with lift lids so you didnt have to bend down to clean them. at the end was the closed off box with its own seperate lid and a small door into the run area, for entering and leaving for the mum and a heater under the whelping box floor, so no matter where the puppies rolled they were warm. The other door was the food prepation area. She sold her puppies on Main Register if you wanted to show. Even if you were a complete newbie like me. After attending my first show, I quickly learned she was despised by many who considered her a 'puppy farmer'. Yet my puppy farmer pup won many classes anway. As did my brothers pride and joy. It also didnt take me long to realise she bred not only as a business, she strived to make sure her dogs self whelped and still good looking dogs. But that did mean not selecting for the ultra big heads and small hips or small size,(remember until the Pedigree Dogs Exposed doco, the standard still had in it "the more dimunitive preferred") the first thing she showed me was how to feel for a wide pelvic bones so there was room for the pup to pass. Same rule for slecting any female of any species I soon discovered when I bought my first stud shorthorn. From what I'm reading in others posts this lady would be the last person you should buy your puppy from. 2)All health testing possible being done. In the 1960's there was no DNA tests available. How breeders of all classes of livestock DNA tested their stock, was to In or Line breed, it was not just done to strengthen a good animals genetic influence. It also disclosed in very short order in the calves, foals, pups. If there was any deletrius genes present and would either end or strengthen that line. Now of course there are quite a lot of DNA tests available before any are born so in one way it is a marvelous shortcut to eliminating a defect carrier before it can even be bred from. The problem being, there are still thousands of defects still waiting for their tests to be found. None of which tests are free. The scans and Xrays also need to be paid for. The total, can and does run into thousands...........of dollars as in $$$$ Which of course then brings us to 3) Do not make money from the pups that are sold. Why ? Considering I doubt there is not a single person reading this that doesnt expect their job to pay what they are worth on an hourly rate. Even Gina Rhinehard considers her time is worth money. Being the richest woman in Australia, or is it the World, doesnt preclude her or any person, whether self employed or working for a boss do so for nothing Why does the person who bred your new puppy deserve no such respect? Instead risk the shameful label "unethical" ? 4)Do not breed to sell. This ones a pretty interesting conundrum. If no one breeds to sell, where are those who do not want to be registered breeders going to find a pup? You cant have it both ways? Even if you want an unregistered pup, same conundrum? 5) Breed only for your own next generation. Ditto as in 4 isnt it. 6)Do not keep in Kennels or they cannot be properly socialised. Fascinating this one. Thanks to all the new law's being passed for adequate housing, everyone is going to have to have concrete kennels, even if they dont intend to use them. 7)Do raise your pups in the home and keep your dogs in the home. Now this is a fun one, puppy buyers expect just this. Except? If your "puppy buyer" turns out, is an inspector, checking to see if your dogs are being housed "correctly" (as in kennels by law) it could end rather expensively, (any one know what the fines are or will be? Is this the future ?

hahaha yes this is true ... I remember when I had my first Anatolian and needed to catch a taxi I would ask the operator can I bring my dog operator would ask what type of dog and i would say a big labrador :laugh: it worked :) ummm wonder if you had just said mastif if all might have been ok?

It is 3.75 million dogs owned, not bred every year. cant find the quote but apparently to maintain that number of dogs owned, there needs to be seriously more than 375,000 born every year to replace death by old age and accidents so they are coming from somewhere

This. If you don't vaccinate your dogs, that percentage will be much higher and rather than just being an unfortunate accident, their deaths will be entirely your own fault. It's bad enough losing a pet to a preventable disease, nevermind also carrying the extra guilt of knowing it was your fault. Arguing that it didn't work once and therefore it doesn't work in general is just throwing the baby out with the bath water and refusing to listen to reason. I never said that, I did say I have over the years lost 3. in each case was told it was sheer bad luck. then this article states is approx 28 percent. at least knowing that would have been better than thinking how unlucky can you get losing 3. helps put into perspective. I always vaccinate , gee