asal

yep and you can put them in the boot when your going out with the pup as well. on the ends makes them taller or extra panels added for a roof for the climbers. I use the $1 cheapie boat type clips from super cheap auto to clip em together although the stronger ones last forever .

Then there is whose defination of 'ethical' you believe. I know you really cant tell by how nice the person or the set up. for example there are places where roll the mum over and there is not one that has not had their pups delivered by ceaser. not because the breed has a problem. the breeder and the vet firmly believe its better to pay for a ceaser and avoid losing any pups. the same vet also belives its perfectly fine to not only remove the pups but the entire uterus after delivery when its the second or third litter. no bitch there ever gets to deliver for herself not even first time mums, so they wake up to "what is that attacking me" some pups die because their new mum is terrified of them, but hey the breeder is absolutely ethical. never have more than three litters , most only two. never sells any on main register. most dont even go on limit, there are three prices and 99% decide on not even limit. any future mums if they mature and develop a fault that may cause an unhappy buyer the cost of raising her is recouped by x breeding and selling the designers with their hybrid vigor. n again ceasered n desexed at the same time. I know the vet who does this as routine and has trained his customers this is best practice. I know because I met him. I darent say where or who. so its not just one breeder doing this and believing this is 'ethical' I know my vet would never do that. As he said, you have removed a huge resevoir of nutrient and blood of the now nursing mum, if you want to save money on desexing her on delivery, instead of when she has recovered from nursing and then desexed, dont come to me.

what has always puzzled me about the oodle is if you want the advandage of the poodle why not buy the real deal? there is NO lottery will it shed or not. it never will. they are amazing dogs and they come in every size available as well? and their coats are bred to be the less matting than you will see in the x's its beyond me. if you want a oodle GET A POODLE

are those photos correct? brown and tan? im in loooooooooove although im beginning to suspect what i really need is a maremma 5 foxes live down on the creek, the chooks are dissappearing at a rate of knots the second hubbys slow to lock em up

Funnily enought now ive chucked in the towel. have two txt messages complete with photos, two of my pups will be doing their first shows end of this year. yep........I sold em on main register n nope wont be desexed. they are beginners with their first registered pup and thrilled to bits with their darlings. I so fear for them, they want their kids to have the fun of showing their pup, I HAVE so tried to warn them what will happen if they win. others have discovered the natives only tend to be friendly if you are losing.

brookstar? "I do not desex my dogs at a young age. I know what to do to look after them. But do I trust the average person, not on my life. They do not even know how to teach a dog to sit, to take it for a walk every day, etc. But you claim that they can be taught to keep to a bitch safe and under 100% control around undesexed male dogs while on heat. I would love to know HOW you propose to teach the average idiotic dog owner how to do that. They cannot keep them under control 99.9% of the time, how on earth do you propse they do so when the dog is entire. I do not and never will believe it is in a dogs best interest to be bred from at 4 months of age, which is when small breeds can begin to enter heat cycles. I do not believe it is in any dogs best interests to be mated to any old dog wandering the street and nor do I believe it is in the interests of dogs to be bred from every cycle, yet the fact is that is what happens when they are in the hands of the average dog owner. As simple as that. " Looks like maybe you need a chill pill. Ive had chi's since 78 and i have NEVER seen a bitch comming into season befor 8 months of age. Comming means just that. so actully fertile and ready to mate about 9 monts males? another matter I remember well my shocked friend nancy gate catching one of her pups busy at 7 months 2 weeks and and to her utter astonishment the bitch had pups to him. as for people not desexing their pups, again you need a chill pill. I have lost count of the bitch puppies I have loaned out on breeders terms alone who were desexed at their first season despite it was agreed I would get a breeding to her on her second season. why not? because its too annoying have a bitch in season. as for people who actually pay the asking price for a good dog. Every one that bought their pup as a pet HAS had it desexed. believe it or not 99 percent of people who have bought a puppy from me wanted it for a pet AND DESEXED them as agreed when they were 6 to 9 moths old. BOYS AND GIRLS. gee you have a low opinion of your own species. But then the general public now have a pretty low opinion of breeders too now thanks to all the mud slinging about backyarders and puppy farmers. its agreed that anyone who bought one of mine could call anytime they needed it boarded, just wont board others though, or couldnt keep it for some reson only has to call. very few have had to rehome, accidents and problems can happen but frankly I tend to suspect the majority of dumpers got theirs cheaply and dont respect them as a result. I well remember as a child my uncle used to breed persian cats, he kept the best kitten and gave the others away it wasnt long before the neighbourhool had unkempt ungroomed persians lolling around. my mum convinced him to charge a good price for his kittens and all of a sudden they were 'valuable' and thus valued and washed, groomed and beautiful. people have to feel their pet has value not only in their eyes but others too. that helps a lot. there are tens of MILLIONS of much loved well cared for pets. you ranters forget its only a fraction that ends up in the pounds. your missing the big picture to the misery of for example the too early desexed babies and those who have to care for them for the rest of their lives .

Not sure just how it works,but maybe thats why there is as much variation in dingos now (colour,white spots etc.) Further changes apart from shortening of muzzle etc. that occurs with domestication likely depends on continued selection for the tamest? well the neighbours pup wasnt'selected' like that. her hubby was a semi driver and some local out the middle of nowhere arrived at the pub with a litter of pups he had dug out, she was the last pup left and they was going to knock her on the head and he asked for her and brought her home. she looked just like the girl in the photos above. The whole point of the experiment was to select the naturally tame foxes from litters of wild foxes and then breed only the tame cubs of those litters and so on. Tamer dingoes are present in the wild population, every dingo in unique as is every dog. That is displayed int he post above where the dingo is not very affectionate compared to your neighbour's one. Yes, except few people seem to realise the same happens even in purebred litters. Marrs and his sister Bluey were very outgoing from their first weeks, their litter sister i called violet as in 'shrinking violet' she always sat in the corner and watched the action. she desplayed this from her first weeks as a pup. so many people seem to have to assume a shy dog has had to have been mistreated. I watched Violet and her 8 other littermates from the day they were born ...she was born that way. to change these pups even a little takes ten times the socalising and you cant make such a dog grown up with the same behaviour that comes naturally with its litter mates no more thn you can with children you can help them but you cant MAKE them what they arent either. it wasnt that long ago that mothers of autistic children were made to wear the blame. Thank goodness that has been proven to be wrong

Not sure just how it works,but maybe thats why there is as much variation in dingos now (colour,white spots etc.) Further changes apart from shortening of muzzle etc. that occurs with domestication likely depends on continued selection for the tamest? well the neighbours pup wasnt'selected' like that. her hubby was a semi driver and some local out the middle of nowhere arrived at the pub with a litter of pups he had dug out, she was the last pup left and they was going to knock her on the head and he asked for her and brought her home. she looked just like the girl in the photos above.

your girl sounds like my neighbours girl in all except she thought everyone was her best friend. and loved pats and cuddles. no one ever asked was she a dingo so the subject never came up. only her owners and us knew where she actually came from

for the life of me i cant remember what or whatever gave me that idea? anyway dont know if theres a thread it should go into but everyone really watch out for snakes, the daughter of one of my last girls is at the vets fighting for her life, they told her owner another 5 minutes later n no possible hope, she has already had to be resuciated after a cardic arrest, so all who know darling buffie are praying for her. why ho why cant they run away instead of towards a snake

Im happy for you to ask me as many questions as you like. If you dont want to do that here you can do it privately . somehow I had it in my head you bred chihuahua's ... just from what I know of you, she couldnt go wrong.. I got my first registered cattle dog on breeders terms, in her case, he put her in pup, got the pick of the litter and she was mine. as I never kept more than one or two, over the years I trusted some 5 people with the same to help them thinking return the favour, but only one kept their word. so go into it knowing you might only find 1 in 5 or thereabouts turns out ok. the reasons it all falls apart are many and varied not always either partys fault either, accidents can also happen as well. The most frustrating was the nit that decided in season was yuk and desexed her without even asking if I would look after her till she was off. the only girl I ever had as good as her won best in show....... so it wasnt a small disaster

Generally I would suggest you find a couple of breeders you like the sound of, phone them up regardless if they are advertising puppies or not. Say you are interested in a male/female PET puppy and if a conversation ensues, whether or not pups are available, you can follow your gut instinct on them. Someone who is happy to have a chat & will tell you the good and bad of the breed - health, behavioural tendencies, temperament etc - even if they don't have pups to sell you are probably going to be good to deal with. If all they can do is bad-mouth other breeders and tell you horror stories about dogs that don't live in their yard, gently put the phone down and RUN away. Upshot is if you find a couple of people you can talk to about the breed, they will almost certainly be able to direct you to litters bred by like-minded people who will be breeding dogs because they love the breed, not to make money or just to win in the showring but because they respect the breed's heritage and cherish it's future. Don't be over-awed by a "super show dog breeder" - show ring success isn't the be-all and end-all (says me who has been showing dogs for more than 30 years). Most breeders I hang around with are just happy to breed healthy typical-looking pups, keep what they hope is the best (we're usually wrong :laugh: ) and sell the rest to people who will give them a great home for life - people like you. absolutley agree once you find a breeder like that, your home and hosed.they are out there, dont despair, in our chi club thats just what you get. We know heaps of people who might have just what you want if they havent.Just dont know nyone with beagels sorri

know what you mean, some are incredibly nice, some give u the impression, pass the money thanks.goodbye. others you feel so intimadated because you might not be good enough to be trusted with a pup. yet all three could hve awesome dogs. n equally all three could have transformers. you really do need to do your own homework and not just rely on how nice or not the people are, or seem. I still laugh at the two international judges who told me to keep x pup as he was the best prospect to run on. he turned out to be the worst off type pup at maturity in the litter. the one i adored that none of them liked at 8 weeks , turned out to be a stunner. so there is also great variation in a single litter and the variations at that age are very tiny but change and morph amazingly as they grow too. although to a pet person I expect what I see as big diferences they would be saying something "but all chinese(doberman's,rottie's,cavalier's,chihuahua's beagle')s look the same" but over the decades, somthing ive always noticed, a pet home buyer almost with out exception zeros in on the puppy i think is the best in the litter. judges i wonder are soo looking at the details they forget to look at the overall picture. when really that is what we want, the overall balanced pup. any takers on that thought?

what your best bet is, learn what problems are in the breed so you at least know what you dont want in a pup. word of mouth is the best , if you see a dog you really like, ask the owner, where did you get it. Ive ended up with some of the best dogs that way. once I was riding past a property, saw an amazing dog, asked was he registered and did they stand him at stud and not only ended up owning the dog, but discovering his dad was my all time favourite of his breed.

Then you have the breeders who probably bred the parents of the outstanding pups mentioned before, but their price is more along the lines of the quality pups. It takes a certain amount of luck, and a lot of reasearch so you know what you are looking at before you buy. many of the highst prices are good ones, but then I have seen one a chap paid 3,000 for, guaranteed tea cup chi. well it was when he bought it. n it fitted very neatly in a teacup. except the breeder neglected to mention it was probably lucky if it was 5 weeks old at the time though. fortunately it survived. even if it grew as big as a cat , as the breeder explained, IT was a TEACUP when he sold it....

When things go right a breeder can make a nice profit. BUT woe betide any who admit that, or puppy farmer comes flying in all directions. So we are supposed to be pious breeding for the good of the breed and at a loss if you want to avoid the 'unethical' tag and all that hate comming with it. as for costs. Some have a litter and dont intend to breed again and i have seen some amazing quality pups go for a joke of a price. Equally I have seen pups at the same price that once they achieve adulthood, leave the owners wondering "what breed is that" some people simply advertise a litter as the breed it looks like most, baby puppies can pass for something they will not even resemble with maturity. hence the amazing pet shop transformers.

the above and this are from a very old thread. The vet's experience has absolutely nothing to do with the puppy's condition. The vet did an ovariohysterectomy - removal of the ovaries stops the manufacture of oestrogen. Without the oestrogen being present for the physical growth of the puppy, her normal development ceased the moment those ovaries were removed. She has been left with an immature vulva, and will always have the vulva of a puppy, even when she is adult - the same thing happens with large breed males - their penis never achieves normal appearance and size, which can look really silly on a great dane for instance! She will have problems for the rest of her life, and no amount of artificial hormones will make up for her lack of development. Poor baby! I've seen the same in 2 large breed bitch puppies. I'm sure the breeder was doing what they considered to be the responsible thing, with their Vets support. I could never do it to such a young puppy though, my Vet refuses anyway. Breeders really are being put between a rock and a hard place. my vet wont either for the reasons above and the joint growth problems that can occur as well

Rubbish. It simply is NOT in the best interests of the animal from a growth and health perspective. Responsible buyers WILL overwhelmingly desex their pets and the dogs benefit from their hormones as they grow. Giant breeds desexed at 6 weeks? I shudder at the thought. agree 100% also agree 100% the people who do this tend to be working on the army's hypothis, to work their figures from the lowest demoninator in their force. ignoring the fact that 99 out of 100 people really do, do the right thing. The people who do desex at such a young age prefer to do so despite proven not to be in the puppies best interests because like the army they are working on addressing the lowest denominator in the human equation. tough luck for the affected, both the dog and its owner. eg Met a friend's gorgeous Akita pup this morning - lovely type and nature, absolutely gorgeous pup, which her proud owner had waited ages for. The pup's "responsible" breeder, insisted on desexing her at 8 weeks, prior to leaving home. My friend's vet wrote a letter, asking for this to be delayed to let the bitch mature a little first, and a desexing contract was offered, but to no avail. She was desexed. In the months since then, the poor pup's vulva has not grown and developed normally, and the constant pooling of urine has caused an ongoing maintenance nightmare, with infections, vet trips and constant cleaning after every time the bitch pees. Which of course can't be done when the owner is at work. The pup has been in constant distress at the smell and discomfort, as has the owner, not to mention the embarrassment whenever the pup has rolled on her back for a tummy rub from friends, revealing unsightly, smelly genitalia. Certainly hope that this breeder is pleased with destroying the quality of life for this poor girl - understand that as it was an interstate sale, she couldn't be sure that the new owner was totally responsible, but why not do a refund on provision of a desexing certificate, or just do a hysterectomy, leaving the essential hormones intact? Any breeder that desexes such a large breed as an Akita at 8 weeks should not be breeding IMO - they certainly don't care about their dogs.

If Hybrid Vigour is quoted explain that true Hybrd Vigour only exists in many generations of "survival of the fittest" (ie. the Heinz mutt) and not in domestic planned breeding. Thats not 'hybrid vigor'. thats defective gene culling. true hybrid vigor is the crossing of completely unrelated breeds, eg Hereford x angus, for example. the resulting calves can weigh up to 75 kg more than their respective purebred calves. mulitily that over a couple of hundred an thats pretty significant additional income. it is a very well known practice to get heavier calves at an earlier age. but keeping the x bred's and breeding from them does not have the same effect the only way to still get an effect, albeit in a reduced level is a third cross to another unrelated breed. but thats the end of the line. to continue you need the purebreeds to cross with each other again. So the purebred seed stock as the cattle producers call them needs to be maintained, bulls recently sold to $20,000 to be used for just that purpose. the extreme example are the meat chickens, the two breeds in their pure form grow and mature normally. the cross bred chicks cannot survive to adulthood, they grow so fast and become so heavy their bones can no longer support the weight until they cannot walk if they are not processed at the optimum age for slaughter. used to work there and some took them home to rescue. every one of them became a cripple. thats how strongly hybrid vigor can be. the basic idea in dog breeding though is to reduce the incidence of Homozygous genes and thus the influence of as many recessive genes as possible so they cannot express in the pups. the catch though is instead of selecting for the ones without the deletrious recessive you have instead created a population of carriers which when mated with another unknown status carrier your back to creating homozoygous litters. the catch in the champion to champion unrelated sires only, your skirting round ever knowing which do not carry the genes you didnt want. thats where line and in breeding came in, by mating sire to daughter or mother to son you could discover if the sire or the dam were not carriers. those which were could then be removed from the breeding group. line breeding you will never know for sure which is the carrier. it has been a very successful across the board dna testing tool (that tested for every gene in the parent, unlike the single tests for the few there are tests available now we have the new very limited tool on the block) since man began breeding livestock, but the animal rights group removed that one too now.

Reading this, made me realise why so many people see so many different perspectives to what others see entirely differently... simply brilliant. A Matter of Perspective TWO WOMEN - are having a coffee and catching up: So, how was your evening last night? A disaster! After getting home, my dear beloved hubby wolfed down in 4 minutes the dinner that took me all afternoon to prepare, "granted" me 3 minutes of passionate love before rolling over and falling asleep 2 minutes later. Nightmare, and you? Oh, mine was incredible. My hubby was waiting for me to get back home from work. He took me out for a very romantic dinner. We then walked back home, under an amazing starry sky, along the canal, for a good two hours. Once home, he lit up all the candles and we had foreplay which lasted for an hour. We then made love for another hour and we chatted until late.. It was wonderful. TWO MEN - meet at the pub... So, how was your evening last night? Incredible! When I came home, the food was ready. I ate, we shagged and I fell asleep. Wonderful night, I just love my wife, You? A nightmare! I came home early to fix the kitchen shelf. When I switched on the power drill, the fuse went out. The whole house went into darkness. Couldn't find the bloody fuse box, so when my better half arrived, I took her out for dinner. It was the only thing to do to avoid getting an ear-full...! The Dinner was so expensive that I couldn't afford a taxi, so we had to walk home. It took ages and once there, the house was still in the dark, obviously, so I had to light all these f*cking candles to avoid knocking everything over. I was so wound up and pissed off that it took me an hour to get a hard on, and another hour to finish. In the end, I was still wound up and it took me ages to fall asleep, while she kept yapping on and on about everything and nothing.......total disaster.

the earlier a pup is desexed the taller it grows in comparison to an undesexed sibling. think I read a paper on that it also contributes to severity of any joint disorders eg hip displacia plus the incontinance problems

you can start with hip and elbow scores. but suspect Hybrid vigor. will be quoted as the guarantee of good health unfortunately. you could ask how often does it need clipping. if told none, what a mess that one will end up in. if she doesnt intend to learn clipping it herself, im told its costs my friend $90 a session. more if she doesnt make sure is washed and no knots before she takes it there. hip pocket pain might slow the decision down maybe?

what a seriously cute chi you hve. love the ears.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals. We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only. It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out. This has been seen in some of the Straight Egyptian lines of the Arabian horse. Some looking so delicate that they would not manage well as a saddle horse, let alone an Endurance animal, been bred primarily as Halter Show Horses. Yep,I think the trend started with the Arabs,both egyptian and Polish lines.Along with the notion that line breeding should be viewed as the norm rather than an exception,used to "capture" unique type and traits not easily available otherwise. I've not been involved with the arabs for years now,but 30 years ago,the trend was well underway. Interesting to think horses might soon be in the same position as dogs,with health tests needed before breeding. already in with the ayrabs cant stand a colt at stud before its been tested for lavender foal, scids and forget what brain gene test.

didnt you read the whole thread? Dingos are not "wild animals" they came over with the koori they ARE and have been for over 40,000 years camp dogs, the ones running wild are camp dogs gone wild. no wolf was originally a camp dog and transported to where they are running wild by man like the dingo was. thats why they are so easily brought up to behave so friendly, I have a friend with a fully registered cattledog who cannot bark, she only howls, just like a dingo. whats in cattle dogs? dingo. my son has a cattle dog same. he never barks. I used to own a bitch who only ever cycled once a year. again I understand a dingo trait. No they havent been continually selected for domestic traits like our registered breeds. My neighbour had one her hubby brought home from and outback trip, I dont remember anyone who saw her think her to be any but a red heeler. We knew she was a dingo. but no one walking by ever said to my neighbour, thats a dingo. she was not kept locked in their yard, they never shut the front gate, but she never left home either, she never went further than the front path to come to our place for a play with our dogs and was a great girl. as the people behing Anne had some 20 chooks which she could see through the paling fence everyone thought as she grew she might go after them, maybe because she saw them every day she became used to them, will never know really, but she never did. nor did she ever bother to jump a fence, she didnt need too the gate was alwys open. not the way to keep a dingo and certainly not recommended but in her case it worked ok. they were lucky.As they tend to say "do not try this at home" though. but they are definately VERY different from a wolf. as anyone who has worked with or known them in a pet environment can attest.