asal

forgot as another said, look for breeders with old dogs, my sisters dogs grandmum and great grand mum were still with their breeder when they were born and were 11 and 13. miffie lived to 15 and her sisters, champagne to 13, tequila to 14, they did have a 4th sister tiki died only 3, who was run over by a neighbour, who as he said, "I speeded up, but she didnt get out of the way" Unfortunatly I had to watch it unfold as I ran towards her calling her to come back, I saw him run her down too terrified to turn off the drive and get out of the way of his car, when he gunned the motor she lay down and was killed by the passenger wheels. the side gate had been accidently left open and she had ran out and along his driveway as he was leaving for work, he wasnt even running late. That was the hardest to come to terms with. apparently, to stop long enough to let me pick her up wasnt an option. He was my family doctor till that day. To me if you dont have enough humanity to let her live what do you think of your patients?

Realised after a lot of thinking about the topic, if you want the best chance of a healthy pup forget asking does the breeder show. ask are the parents and grandparents checked and have certificates or vet reports to prove it. regarless of whether the breeder has registered parents and grandparents or simply unpapered purebreds. if the breeder cant find a sale for puppys from unchecked and/or un dna'ed parents then they wont be breeding another litter too often would they. as for the kennels who are dead ends , so what, even if the numbers of registered dogs drops to unstainable levels. I realised thats exactly what happened to the Stumpy Tailed Cattledog and the registry began a grading up scheme from the available unregistered Stumpies. so the breed is back on track anyway (by the time the grading up scheme was implemented there was only one registered breeder left in the country so all wont be lost after all. they will just embrace the remining entire purebreds that fit the standard back into a grading up scheme anyway. why didnt i remember that before.. no doom for breeds at all that drop too far in registered numbers...

LOl from what Ive seen the owner is trying to make it clear their staffy isnt a american/pit bull. most of the local shop windows are no longer putting they have pitbulls for sale they are amstaffs now, just not papers of course. thats what bsl has accomplished, just a name change. no thats too simplistic, n the deaths of a lot of innocent dogs

This might be a bit obvious, but doesn't the second point override the third? How can you breed before 5 years of age if they have to be MVD tested until 5 and be clear? I am not a breeder (only a first time dog owner) but is there a maximum age that a dog should have it's first litter by, and is there an age at which it is best to stop breeding at? For a dog, 5 years seems like a long time to wait to have a litter. Part of me wonders how much human intervention has affected certain breeds - in most species it is expected there will be genetic factors that will affect some of the offspring, call it 'natural selection' or genetics or mutations or whatever. Not all offspring will be healthy, live to an old age and be extremely fertile and produce vigorous offspring themselves. To expect perfection is not a reality. For breeders to expect perfection is not a reality. For buyers to expect perfection is not a reality. I know that there has been a lot of good done to eradicate nasty genetics but the fact is, there are genes present in any species or breed that could potentially mutate or recessive genes that may not be "shown" but are being passed on and will in the future generations be "shown" when 2 recessive parents are mated. The reason inbreeding creates problems is that it is more likely that recessive genes end up being "shown" and mated together and carried on to offspring (like the "royals" with haemophilia in times past). Unless you can map the 2 parent's genomes and know every single possible genetic outcome of breeding them you have to take what the luck of the draw is. Breeders can do their best to predict, but none can give any sort of guarantees. Personally, I used a number of website "what breed suits me" quizzes to make a short-list of possibilities from there I did some research and decided that despite a possible short lifespan (compared with other breeds) and possible illness, that the CKCS was indeed the "perfect" breed for us. I think you firstly need to decide the best breed for your circumstances and be prepared for what that breed may entail - health-wise or other, and if you aren't prepared for that then look at another breed. Your observations are just so sensible you make me hope maybe there might be a future. but how to get this message back out there, instead of expecting the impossible from a breeder and deamonising them when the obvious does occur. that is why the phrase exists "put the best to the best and hope for the best" thats reality. as you so well said. The other downer to potential puppy buyers is being constantly told by the self styled "precious ethicals" to ask. "do you show" and cross of the list any breeder, even though a member with registered dogs as a puppy farmer. there is nothing. be it NSW, VIC, QLD, TAS, SA, WA or NT. (NOT yet anyway) in the membership rules of any state canine council, that state to own and breed your main registered dogs they MUST be shown. Yet this is what the self labled "ethicals" are labeling those who choose not to show as "unethical" and what some for decades have used as the reason to justify using the RSPCA (and only too happy to oblidge to the best of thir abilty, as I discovered with Inspector Donnelly) to persecute those who do not agree with them or end up on the black list for whatever reasons, even those who do show,have found themselves on the 'to be purged for the good of the breed list'. nice world the dog show fraternity. there is a way, go back to the bad old days of the 50's and early 70's when everyone worked together and encouraged newbies and each other, freely exchanging bloodlines for the good of the breed instead of just 'their' kennel. even those with all the tests done and proven will not release any but a limit register pup these days, or face the music. one lady I met does sell on main register, the catch being the puppies are already desexed before they go. not much improvement for future generations there but they are great pups and do come with a lifetime guarantee, well for as long as she is a member anyway. LOL

Now Who was it wondeering why you cant find main register puppies and members are not renewing? and how do u find those with healthy parents of any breed let alone the adorable cavalier? my friends thought they would help and showed some of mine for me and ok they became champions in less than a year. but what did that really achieve? all it really did was delay the 'precious ethicals' some championship points for their darlings for that year, didt it? didnt make my dogs any better than I already knew they were surely?

Please tell me where too look!?! I KNOW there are healthy Cavaliers out there that would be FANTASTIC in my breeding programme, the problem is those quality breeders will not reply my emails, or if they do, I never hear back from them when litters are born. I know I am not alone in this. Maybe in the 'pet' world it is easier, but when you are trying to establish a breeding programme you need healthy, well constructed bitches. And they are rare to be able to obtain. cant help you, its the new age now, if you going to be seen to be "ethical" your kennels are a closed shop. so if anyone is willing to sell you a pup on main they will immediately become one of the "unethical " and fair game for attack . my dog stringy paid almost with his life because I chose not to show and as a result was marked for elimination by our ho so ethical showie ranks. as letter from the then minister for agriculture Richard Amery says. "Thank you for your letter of 30 April 2001 regarding the seizure of your dog 'Stringy"' by the RSPCA. This whole incident has clearly been distressing for you. However , it would seem that the appeaance of your dog breeding establishment and several of your animals attracted the attention of at leaast one other breeder who was concerned about the rputation of the industry, the conduct of your business and the welfare of some of your dogs. The RSPCA is obliged to investigate genuine complaints regarding animal welfare and to pursue what they believe" ill put the rest later have to go out. the gist is the rspca were used to find something anything to charge me so i could be kicked out of the membership of the canine council. unfortunately for their brief 21 needle inseertions, torn trachea doing an op he didnt need nor could be done by any vet without the owers permission failed to find them anything to charge me for so brief not accomplished. so you see dont anger the precious or your dogs will pay even if you dont. nice eh? its not just savage dogs that are dangerous, its the even more savage showies so just what are the implications of that letter? 1. the RSPCA is often used to persecute anyone the showies dont like. 2. as in the case of my dog. "If you conduct your business as outlined in the Code of Practice for dog breeding establishments you will have nothing to fear from further visits from RSPCA inspectors" is a load of lies. there was not one single breech of said code yet he was taken and tested for conditions he did not have yet I had to pay them for. They made over $500 dollars from that convenient call. 3. by law I am supposed to be told the nature of the complaint at the first visit. Inspector Donnely refused to disclose anything. just that i would be advised by mail. I never was. 4. by law i am supposed to have 2 weeks to rectify any thing needing to be done. Inspector Donnely refused to disclose anything, advised i would receive a letter by mail. I never did. 5. he returned two weeks later and stole my dog, then cited to Richard Amery the dog was seized because i had not had the dog taken for verterinary appraisal. 6. when I pointed these breeches of law to Ricard amery he replied in that letter i am quoting "I do not feel that the RSCPA HAS ACTED OUTSIDE THE LAW OR UNREASONABLY IN THIS MATTER" (MY CAPITALS.) so beware folks there is no appeal and still isnt.

This might be a bit obvious, but doesn't the second point override the third? How can you breed before 5 years of age if they have to be MVD tested until 5 and be clear? I am not a breeder (only a first time dog owner) but is there a maximum age that a dog should have it's first litter by, and is there an age at which it is best to stop breeding at? For a dog, 5 years seems like a long time to wait to have a litter. Part of me wonders how much human intervention has affected certain breeds - in most species it is expected there will be genetic factors that will affect some of the offspring, call it 'natural selection' or genetics or mutations or whatever. Not all offspring will be healthy, live to an old age and be extremely fertile and produce vigorous offspring themselves. To expect perfection is not a reality. For breeders to expect perfection is not a reality. For buyers to expect perfection is not a reality. I know that there has been a lot of good done to eradicate nasty genetics but the fact is, there are genes present in any species or breed that could potentially mutate or recessive genes that may not be "shown" but are being passed on and will in the future generations be "shown" when 2 recessive parents are mated. The reason inbreeding creates problems is that it is more likely that recessive genes end up being "shown" and mated together and carried on to offspring (like the "royals" with haemophilia in times past). Unless you can map the 2 parent's genomes and know every single possible genetic outcome of breeding them you have to take what the luck of the draw is. Breeders can do their best to predict, but none can give any sort of guarantees. Personally, I used a number of website "what breed suits me" quizzes to make a short-list of possibilities from there I did some research and decided that despite a possible short lifespan (compared with other breeds) and possible illness, that the CKCS was indeed the "perfect" breed for us. I think you firstly need to decide the best breed for your circumstances and be prepared for what that breed may entail - health-wise or other, and if you aren't prepared for that then look at another breed. HO my! THANK you soo much. I was beginning to think sanity and common sense had dissappeared where dogs were concerned. maybe there might be hope? you are right. leaving a bitch to 5 before being bred, quite a percentage will have been desexed due to pymetra (unterine infection) as my vet explained, dogs were not evolved to go years without being in pup. the ideal is the bitch have her puppies young and desexed to live out her old age in comfort. now its all back to front. the older the mother the higher the incidence of deformed eggs. just look at the percentage of babies born with downes in the human race, dogs have their own version too. aging maternal eggs mean more damaged eggs fertalized and more problems than babies born to mums with young healthier eggs. but hey maybe puppies born with doggie downs are preferable ? remember the downs damaged eggs pass on the now damaged chromosones down through the generations so what wasnt in the parents is now in the descendants. the older the parents the more chance of mutations in the offspring due to the advanced age of the mother. but hey our representatives on the boards of the canine bodies wont be mentioning that will they? watched the people being interviewed in that doco "pedigree dogs exposed" as the repesentatives of their canine boards was awful to see. our politicions know they dont know the facts when facing an interview so they get their researchers to put it together so they dont look as lost as the dog worlds representatives did. if you run for office and front a press confernece, find out your facts first instead of end up looking silly and selling yourself and the breeds out. they took the easy way out and banned related breedings without explaining that inbreeding or line cannot put in a gene that wasnt already there. aged maternal eggs can and do exactly that, but now we are going to be encouraged to do exactly what? only use aged bitches, by so doing may be free of mitral valve but? .....as a by prodoct getting a higher percentage of puppies born with damaged transmissable altered dna, how many other conditions besides mongolalism (downes syndrome) is added to the gene pool by this route? like what the? just look up the concerns being voiced about the increasing problems linked to our own populations tendancy to older and older mums having their first child. same applies to all species.

I pefer the little harness sets you can buy for a dwarf rabbit, they fit chihuahuas ok as puppies and the normal size rabbit when they are fully grown, that way they cant slip a collar or risk choking either. i get mine from the local produce stores much cheaper than the pet shops too. this is the blue and green tarten one, comes with harness and lead on this chihuahua about 2.02 into harrys video n yes I bred her, sassy by name and nature. http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/better-homes-gardens/tv-and-video/video/watch/29693626/dr-harry-tv-jumper/1416633/

No, however a lot of traits/working styles/preferences, travel down the line ... I love watching pups 'working' pet sheep or poultry ..and being able to immediately spot the 'style' of their grandparents , etc. Yep, keep mating the shy ones and what do you end up with....boldness lost. Environment and training can assist or cover up issues but when placed under enough pressure I think most dogs revert to whats in their hard wiring. I'm thinking along the lines of Myer Briggs for dogs - adapted personality and true personality. When that bull is staring them down they either have the courage or they don't. I agree that they wont be able to make it an exact science. I was surprised when I have spent time with sheep herders that it can take up to a year to find a suitable pup for a particular handler. Soft handlers need softer dogs...it is a partnership after all. exactly, too often people forget they dont come off an assemly line like cars, applies to ALL living creatures.

Your original question was if it's possible to find a Cav without health issues. Health problems are remarkably common across animal species....and not all are specifically genetic in origin. Many arise from the simple biology of being alive....and interacting with an environment (whether animal or human). Experienced Cav breeders have already given you the state-of-the-art position on specifically genetically acquired health issues in that breed. Makes sense then, for you to track down registered breeders who are on top of their game. I did that for both my breeds of interest and have generally OK health-wise purebreds as pets. They're not kelpies BTW. Yeah, my original question could have been worded much better, but then, I'd had one too many ales at the time (hence the topsy-turvy-title and the lack of tact). Yes another FACT so often overlooked. not all faults are gentic, as my doctor explained after my third miscarriage, experiments in collecting as many miscaried babies as possible disclosed many had failed to develop properly and its natures way of eliminting them before birth. as he said remember you evolved from ONE cell, any mistakes in dividing and disaster, its really a mirical so many conceptions result in healty individuals. thats why many conditions at birth are called congenetial "present at birth" not necessarily gentic in origin muddies the water doesnt it

very well said Jed. But, and there is always a 'but'. what the kennel controls have never done is actually 'educate' their members about breeding dynamics and genetics, its expected newbies and even oldbies do the research themselves and few do. it is not good enough to blame any and all imperfect pups on "inbreeding" that is only a copout. seen to be seen to do something, and ban all mother/son, father/daughteer, brother/sister matings, then sit back with a nice moral smile. what hasnt been addrressed is neither in or line breeding creates what wasnt there in the first place. What it does do is identify carriers immediately if both carry and the carrier outed. then breeding decisions are made as to which or if both parents are clear or free. in and line breeding actually dna tests the involved dogs/horses/cattle/sheep/goats for every dna gene they possess. there is no dna technology yet available that does this and this tool has been in use by breeders/FARMERS for millenia, thats how breeds evolved and were cleaned up of as many gentic failings as possible by the people who did understand this principle and became lauded as the leaders in their field. they are few and far between i grant you. you notice I included the word 'farmer' a farmer IS or once was a very honourable profession. yet like the homosexual group who chose to use "gay" as their new word and the rainbow as they new banner. the dog fraternity decided to brand the lowest of the low as 'puppy farmers'. considering so many of the pius/precious of the show world breed Champion to Champion collecting very impressive pedgrees along the way, thinking this proves how consenitious I am. breeding unrelated to totally unrelated achives many things. yes a very pretty pedigree. yes a parentage with not a clue what deletrious genes are hidden and when they do come out in all their glory, the owner of the bitch declares, the sire is at fault. the owner of the sire declares that bitch is at fault and the fight begins. I have seen hundreds if not thousands of such puppies bred over the decades and it didnt take me long to realise the puppys bred by the in and line breeders resulted in far fewer such puppies than the outcross all the time breeders. Ive seen puppies from "perfect" parents runing accross their feed bowl to scoop up dinner because the bottom jaw is so short its the only way to pick up their food. I did have a wonderful teacher, the genetist Glen Roberts. So I had a mentor to go to for advice and explaination. I have wondered from the moment i became a member of the Canine Council why such material and infomation is not accumulated and diseminated to new and old breeders? it is the learning of the ages. I also wonder why the people elected do not be proactive instead of this constant reactive. I queried the stupid "the more dimunitave preferred" in the chihuahua standard from the day i bought my first chihuahua, blind freddy could see generations doomed to cesearians was the result of (to me anyway) the fools selecting for so small they couldnt deliver anyway but hey they WON..... it took how many decades and "pedigree dogs exposed" documentary to remove it. Why didnt sanity prevail if SHOW BREEDERS are the paragons of virtue they profess to be. NO I do not show, I do not believe I need to dance to the tune of people I no longer respect, yet by not so doing risk the branding of what was a proud title...PUPPY FARMER. no morphed to derogotry by 'show' fraternity. remember those reading this, one of the doyons of the CKC told me to my face she believe within 12 years i could not be able to find a CKC without groin hernias. how negative is that for the welfare of this beautiful breed? its is easy to eliminate, YOU DONT BREED FROM PARENTS WITH THEM. but how can you reduce this in a breed where the judges award challenges to dogs with all three? navel and groin? go look for yourselvs, the show sceenies dont think its a problem yet name me any human with a groin hernia that doesnt get it fixed because its not only uncomfortable but can lead to intestine strangulation? and remember folks, when it became fashionable to get rid of "backyard breeders" I looked out the back door of my friends parroting this stupidity and asked ? "Then when you get rid of those you dont like, what are you going to say when the witch hunt looks out your back door? we all have a back yard". this insanity began in the late 70's. there are far fewer such people than there are good people but witchhunts destroy far more than the target as the freefall in members and dogs is proving. how long before someone realis's proactive instead of reactive, before too late?

How very strange... I've never heard this from a CKCS owner. It's rare to find a Cavalier owner with just one Cav and those with only one wish they could have more but can't only due to personal circumstances and not the breed. As with any breed - registered, reputable breeders will do everything in their power to ensure their puppies do not develop such problems as MVD, SM/CM. The major problems come from inexperienced breeders, backyard breeders and puppy farmers. Blackdogs - you do need to be aware of these key health issues and question the breeder in regards to these http://www.cavaliersa.com/health.htm. The other issues Arcane mentioned are rare and I wouldn't say are common to the breed. My Cavalier, Lady, is 1 year and 8 months old. She has never had any medical issues. However, I do have pet health insurance as I know problems can arise over time (although, I would have this for any breed of dog). She has been an absolute ray of sunshine in my life and I cannot recommend this breed enough to people who want a loving companion. Lady is friendly with strangers, children, and she never barks. She does suffer some separation anxiety as she wants to be around people all the time. Cavaliers are recommended to people who are at home most of the time (I work from home, so this suits me). When I am in a position to get another dog, I will most definitely be getting another Cavalier. Eighteen months old is not quite old enough to give a complete health picture of an ENTIRE breed. We have five Cavaliers, none of whom showed problems until they were 2 - 3 years old. At eighteen months old I thought all of ours were wonderful as well. They are exactly what you say - lovely temperament, great with strangers, kids, and ever so loving. Then they get sick. We have one with patella's and another with a heart murmur and another with an undiagnosable stomach problem that causes her to be sick every 3-4 days. All from different, reputable, registered, breeders. I, myself, am a registered breeder and am SO disheartened with Cavies and the health problems that I am considering going to another breed. It is heartbreaking to watch something you love so much suffer so greatly, and at the same time ruin years of carefully considered breeding programmes. I can sympathise with you, disaster still happen. I will never forget when asking one breeder who was recommended to me by a member of the ethics committee . to be told when I questioned the large number of Aust Champions's I saw with hernia's. to be told 'I doubt in the next 12 years, you will be able to find any without them "

Blackdogs it is possible to find a breeder who breeds healthy cavaliers but you will never have a 100% guarantee that the dog will never have health problems. I would suggest you find a breeder who health tests, someone who is willing to discuss the health issues of the cavalier with you and not just dismiss it with "not in my lines". See how you feel after talking to some breeders and hearing what they have to say. If your mum is looking for a lively, loving, affectionate, snuggly little dog then she won't go wrong with a cav. :) That's a big ask. You'll probably find a breeder somewhere who says that, but have they really had every single pup they've ever bred tested throughout it's life to be sure they've never bred a dog with genetic health issues? I would very much doubt it. I can only go from my sisters experience and mine, my sister bought two some 16 years ago, she only lost them one last year and miffi end of last year. no problems with either of them. thanks to her I bought two as well and both lived to 14 and 16 snuffling is long palette and its in every shorter faced breed, and I am not just referring to pugs and pekes. Ive had chihuahua's for 40 years and one of my most strong beliefs is the show scene should be banned from shortening the breeds faces. i thought that in the 70's and have no reason change my belief, the stupid sentance "the more diminuative preferred" i argued be deleted from the standard then has finally been removed. but only after that doco "pedigree dogs exposed" hit the airwaves. as my vet said, you may shorten the faces but nature does not shorten the tongue or the palette, so you are deforming the dogs internally by doing so. holds as true today as it did in the 70's. the biggest mistake the show world makes and continues to do so is they cont content themselvs with "maintain" a standard, they cant resist changing the goal posts with the excuse of "improving" the breed. as i asked then, where did the standard ask to change from an apple dome to th entire apple? increasing eye size till they can hardly shut them? and as for the diminuative bit, were is bitches so small only a cesearian can deliver the next generation doing anything good for the breed? all done in the name of a bloody bit of ribbon that moths eat and time turns to dust, yet the survivors of their descendants live their lives with their tongues being tapped to remind the dog to keep it behind the teeth for the judge as they arent supposed to stick their tongue out? sorry folks, I do not consider the ribbon chasers the bastions of the intregrety of a breed, any breed. if a dog with black eyes wins a challenge next thing you know every other ribbon chaser is selecting for black eyes, eg 1984 Sydney Royal, there were lines of black eyed australian cattledogs in a breed standard that reads "Eye colour, dark brown." since when was black as the ace of spades equatable with brown in any form dark or otherwise. i could go for for pages enough to write a book over the distortions the show fraternity go with every few years across all breeds. so just because one group of breeder "shows" does not mean they are the better person than the ones who like me, refuse to distort a wonderful breed to be seen to be in fashion step. I still remember how lamblasted Phil Burgess of Elfreda kennels was because she is and was a professional pet breeder who was willing to sell lovely puppies on main register. who always slelected for self whelping and soundness. of course some were unsound as in teeth out patella etc, breeding is a game of percentages even breeding humans. Imagine my amusement some 15 years later when some of her most disparaging critics discovred a new dog purchased was discovered to trace back to elfreda and were thrilled to find such sound breeding behind it, so hard to keep a straight face that day, how the tide had finally turned. show me one single parent who can health guarantee their own children for life, yet I am hearing that breeders are now doing so for the puppies they breed. as well telling a puppy buyer that to not do so means the breeder who does not do so is a puppy farmer? as I asked one chap, I will be interested to see if the ones offering such a all emcompassing guarantee will still be members in 5 years time. I know when a survey was done something like 80 percent of new members were no longer members 5 to 6 years after joining and by 10 to 15 years all but 7 percent were no longer members so what value is the lifetime guarantee when you cant find them anyway?

wonderhow they expect a dna test to show them the best multitaskers? my friend has had kelpies for over 80 years, descended from his dads dogs, he had a injoured filly and sent the dog to bring her in to have the wound dressed. except he had put her in a sepearte paddock the previous day. she was down in the far corner beside the mob on the other side. she flatley refused to leave her mates. the dog looked to les for advice. les was rolling laughing so no help to the dog. he gave his owner a disgusted look, jumped the fence shifted the entire mob along the fence to the yards with the filly following on her side of the fence. soon as she as at the yard he jumped back stood in the gate way and barked back at les as if to demand,,,NOW get your sorry butt over and shut this gate. now thats initiative, how do u test for that?

they sure do. they are all muscle and its amazing how little they really eat for their size. its not the ribs u look at its the muscling along the back, rump and legs built like big arnie arent they. ultimate lounge lizards though. love greys

some people are just unfathomable. there was a neighbouring dog that took to comming to my place and attacking my dogs, (jumped my fences like they werent even there) asked the owner to keep him home but nope back again so took him to the pound. forget how many times he went and it must have cost mega as i believe its upped every repeat but nope they just kept getting him back and letting him roam again. i believe/suspect some one shot him in the end as he simply dissappeared. just dont understand the mentality. beautiful dog but he belonged at his home, not terroising other peoples dogs and stock surely?

What about about the genetic factor and the difficulty managing a dog predisposed with aggression.......drop the leash with a dog like that and it will cause harm to a person or another dog/animal. I have never heard so much absolute nonesense that bad owners are the cause of aggression in all dogs.........ask some behaviourists how many human/animal aggressive dogs they work with that has nothing to do with the owners or how the dog was raised, generally the problem is that the owners don't know how to manage an aggressive dog, but give the same owners a genetically stable dog of good temperament, they would have no problems managing a dog like that. very wel put, there are NO simple answere unfortunately

when is anyone going to discover screaming ''''NEW LAW NEEDED....NEW LAW NEEDED" FINALLY going to realise the only outcome is GUESS WHAT? EVEN MORE 'NEW' UTTERLY STUPID LAWS thanks to the 'new laws ' brigade we already have it you have to build concrete floored multi thousand dollar 'kennel' complexes unless you want to be labled unsanitary. has it occured next it will not only become law you have to keep your litters in concrete sheds instead of your home. how long will it take for the OH&S people to realise, hey, any doggie in a house is a health risk to 'visitors" and that no pets, canine included be banned next? 30 years ago i saw this insanity comming. thats here now.. how long before the next chapter? remember i warned u

They were sold two dogs as pets, that they brought home and spent 7 months training. It turned out that the dogs were illegal, and therefore not suitable as pets. They should be able to easily take legal action at a basic level to get a refund on purchase price. But if they had a good lawyer I think they could also sue to compensate for the wasted time spent training the dogs as well as suing to recover the all the legal and other costs they had accumulated as a result of being sold two illegal pets. that doesnt make sense if the parents are deemed to be not pit bulls. then how could the owner be sued? its the ranger decided the puppies are??? what a mess

who told you that? dna testing has sent how many thousands of people to jail as a posative identification? its and unique as fingerprints. as for parentag verification it is just as accurate. yes the companies out to make money saying they can dna verify or identify a 'breed' are just snake oil salesmen but parentage verification is recognised world wide in all law courts. who told you otherwise?

There were no DNA tests completed on any of the dogs. The parents must have passed the visual identification and there was a stat dec completed by the parents owner/"breeder" stating the dogs breeds. exactly, and parentage verification is recognised world wide. so clearned parents, meant parentage verification proved beyond all let alone 'reasonable doubt" that they were NOT pit bulls. the failure of even the vets involved to tell the owners and breeder of theses pups this is tragic. no way they should have been put down.

I think people are only now realising that the Vic legislation isn't about whether a dog is a pitbull or not - dogs are deemed restricted based on how they look, regardless of parentage. The fact that these dogs aren't pitbulls means nothing according to the law. The ONLY exception being pedigreed Amstaffs (so, under the law, if you have a pedigreed SBT that met the checklist your dog could be seized and put down too). The sad irony of this all is that people will soon learn to hide their bull breed dogs, not take them out and socialise them (for fear of getting them seized) and we'll land up with more unsocialised, dangerous dogs. I do not understand what you just said? are you saying if a dog is already registered as a Amstaff it is safe. but if your dog is a pedigreed staffodshire bull terrier, that is deemed to look like a pit bull? it can be seized and put down? was only speaking to a lady recently whose child was mauled at a show by an Amstaff and still undergoing surgery years later for the damage inflicted, not counting the mental damage to a young child now terrified of any bull looking breed. I remember when the first Pit's and ?Amstaff's? arrived on our shores, especially remember seeing ads for dual registered Amstaffs/pit bull's available for stud and sale in america. It was pretty obvious to even one who had never seen either in the flesh, in america they are one and the same. This lady told me she firmly believes the same thing. I am constantly amazed how many people i meet who tell me their dog is a staffie and blind freddy can see there isnt a drop of staffie in their pittie. ive know staffies since i was a kid they are as different as chalk and cheeze to a pitti and or an amstaff. think i need to now don flamesuit. considering how many aussies think they are not the one breed with two interchangable lables. spotted this add for a kennel,, note size and breeds suitablbe for Deluxe wooden dog kennel house [small dog] Was: $149.99 Now: $109.99 Code: PWH113a Suitable for small dogs such as Staffordshire bull terriers, Beagles, Japanese spitz etc. Please contact us on 02-90299385 to find out when new stock is coming in yet i bought a Large sized one, second hand from a chap who explained his staffy had grown to large for it. my heart missed a terrified beat when i met his "staffy"??? Yes he was cute and goofy, but when he can stand and look you just about in the eye? an english staffie??????????????????????????? last I looked there is a huge difference in length of leg (let alone sheer size) between Amstaff/Pitty's and the "real", short legged, much smaller English Staffies Deluxe wooden dog kennel house [Large dog] Was: $199.99 Now: $159.99 Code: PWH113c Suitable for large sized dogs such as German shephreds, Rottweilers etc. Availability: IN STOCK

I am very puzzled in that earlier it states the owner of the parents verified they bred the two pups and the parent are not considered to be pit bulls? surely then why wasnt the opportunity taken to dna verify the parentage of the two dogs? they did not need to be a test for pit bull even if one was available. what they did have was the fact the parents were deemed to not be pit bull, therefore parentage verification is a proven reliable test. why was that not done? no way the council could have put them down with a proven parentage dna test????? i do not understand didnt anyone tell the puppies owners that this is a hundred percent accurate test? fathers are doing paternity testing on their children these days so they dont discover they are paying to raise some one elses child.. knew a chap who discovered years down the track only one of 'his' three children was actualy his.. not a happy camper at all. if its valid for humans it is just as valid for dogs. no australian stud book throughbred 'ASB'can be registed until its first been parentage verified. these dogs should have been done and thus saved..... as i said...why were their owners not told?

my suspicion, pup for starters isnt 'tiny' its at least 12 weeks or more...thats a seriously long set of legs. the adult has played this game before and knows whats expected. looking how long the muzzle is doesnt look like that dogs pup but a different breed or x

ok? so without using a calculator on average the numbers bred has just about halved between 1986 to 1211? despite the actual available wanting a pet to have, population just about doubling?