asal

No its not against the law .The breeder is mandated by law to chip the puppy but the buyer can buy a puppy without a chip without a problem for them. There is the crux of the problem, until a buyer is mandated to either buy a chipped and vaccinated puppy or is liable for prosecution if found with an unchipped dog then the underground trade can merrily go on its way I dont think its the crux of the problem but its an example of the problem. true, didn't think it through

No its not against the law .The breeder is mandated by law to chip the puppy but the buyer can buy a puppy without a chip without a problem for them. There is the crux of the problem, until a buyer is mandated to either buy a chipped and vaccinated puppy or is liable for prosecution if found with an unchipped dog then the underground trade can merrily go on its way

As one who spotted this decades ago and tried to get the ear of some of the committee members of the then Canine council. One was the remove a sentence in the chi standard to the effect "in case of equal merit the more diminutive preferred". Even in 78 I spotted many judges just didn't worry about the first part just zeroed in on the tiniest in the class. was I wasting their time on something to insignificant? well it was promptly deleted after Pedigree dogs exposed. the other was the realisation the rspca had too little members who actually were dog breeders to balance their voting and board. It fell on the deafest ears imaginable. although when (forget his name) was voted Chairman one year, apparently he had been a member of the rspca for many years, the minute his election was in the papers he received notification his rspca membership had been cancelled. so although AR people can be members those who actually breed and know best management practice are not only not wanted as members as has been seen are hardly given a voice on the boards convened to decide best practice, not even fully qualified reproduction Vets have a presence in these decision making processes?

copied from another forum "exactly, ONCE 'farmers were highly thought of for their love and care of their stock' but these days there are numerous dodgy characters badly mistreating dogs for $. Big $ too. Could recite numerous incidents of puppy farming I know of, but too depressing...point is, times have changed. This industry needs looking at and legislation of some sort." reply to the above post. "Except as it has proven, you can make all the laws you want, restrict how many litters a bitch can have, restrict how many she can have per year, must micorchip all puppies, must vaccinate all puppies, can only have so many dogs, can only breed a max of 10 litters in a 12 month period (mind you that "litter" could be just one pup for a small breed, or 16 for the larger breeds, so a small breed breeder can produce 10 to 20 pups if they get two to a litter , but the larger breeds can mean their breeder has 160 puppies yet they are not a puppy farmer as long as they were from 10 litters. how insane is that?) or you will be inspected, cant breed father to daughter or mother to son or brothers to sisters. UGH how disgusting, how unnatural. yet Ralvon Bethelem a multi, multi champion was son to mother eg Ralvon Pilgrim to his mother Trix Silver. the most famous horse in dubai, dubbed their National Hero, Mindari Aenzac was the result of father to daugher, Ralvon Aeneas to his Daughter Mindari Wingadee. whats disgusting and banned in dogs now, has repeatedly produced some of the best of the best when the genes are sound. but hey who cares about soundness its incest in dogs now but not yet (anyway) in horses. but guess what? i found two puppies last week, obviously over 8 weeks old, took them to animal welfare and nope not a chip between them. a number of years ago I had two puppies stolen from my home, both were microchippped, I saw the car that stole them as it almost ran me down getting off my land. it was a white sedan but too shocked to get the number plate. some weeks later one puppy was found wandering beside a 6 lane highway near liverpool. how she survived has to have been a miracle since she was only 6 weeks old when she was stolen and was now 14 weeks. a kind lady caught her and took her to a lady who bred the same breed who then took her to a local vet and I was phoned and home she came. for months I scanned gumtree and trading post adds as the police said many stolen dogs end up there. finally when she was 6 months old was a photo of her on gumtree, her owner had to move back to japan and couldnt afford the export costs, I rang and arranged to meet but when I got there only her old male was left, my girl had been sold, I had not dared to tell her she was stolen, I had phoned the redfern police who met me and interviewed the lady and she was wonderful, she had the names and address of the people who bought her.. now the interesting bit was she had bought her at campbelltown markets, she had been told the puppies had been an unwanted gift to the wife and had no vaccination papers so she would need to have her vaccinated and microchipped. she had not bothered to have her either vaccinated or microchipped as she assumed as she lived in a high rise flat there was no chance of her getting any disease. Even in the add I found she had said the puppy has no vaccination papers or microchip, when the police contacted the new owners they were positive their new puppy couldn't be the stolen one after learning she had a microchip number. so agreed to take her to the nearest vet along with a police constable to prove it was not the dog I was looking for. of course they were not happy to find out they did have a stolen dog. so much so that the family and almost a dozen friends went to the police station demanding the return of THEIR dog, the argument being whoever lost her didn't deserve to have her back or she wouldn't have been stolen in the first place! thing got ugly enough that when i arrived to pick up my puppy, the police had rang me and told me when I arrived to look at no one and ask for sargent ...... and under no circumstance mention I was there about a dog. Did as was told although it was very scary walking past that angry group looking for who was coming to get their pup. I was taken into an interview and reunited with Fire. but to get me back to my car safely I was taken downstairs to the paddy wagons and given a lift back to where my car was parked. so an awful lot of people are happy to buy what they believe are unvaccinated unchipped dogs and puppies. even though PERISH THE THOUGHT its BLOODY AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DREAM ON micromanage the law abiding into extinction but you ain't going to stop the underground puppy trade "

The view from a member of Lifeline http://www.westernadvocate.com.au/story/4091644/greyhound-ban-will-leave-families-in-crisis-lifeline/

Exactly. trouble is, how many are listening, let alone believing.

So how is this in any way relevant to the greyhound owners ? They too are guilty by association, they did not prevent the unethical's in their ranks so all are going to pay the penalty, thanks to Baird, the greens and the AR's. what honestly makes anyone think, all dog owners and breeders are not going to be next? Until no dogs end up in pounds or euthanised its the next logical step.

Exactly, the 3 day old was taken while the wife kept me busy and the hubby took the pup while my back was turned, as they drove down the drive my hubby said check that litter I think her husband was up to something, I rang the police while they were still leaving my home, I knew where they lived as they had bought a puppy previusly yet the police refused to do a thing unless I would lie and say I had seen them actually put the puppy in the car. I have only got two stolen puppies back and neither thanks to the police, they were taken together, one was found running beside a 4 lane highway, how she wasnt killed is a miracle, can only presume whoever they sold her too didnt have a secure backyard, got a phone call from the vet who her finder took her too, and she came safely home. the second one some months later spotted her photo on a gumtree add her buyer had a new job back in japan was returning to japan and couldn't afford the airfare to take her with her, so advertised her, again the local police were useless, couldn't believe I could recognise a 6 weeks old puppy 3 months after her disappearance. (she had unique markings) so i answered the add myself, unfortunately by the time I arrived she had been sold but once she knew the story gave me the details of the new buyer who I then gave to the police, big pat to the Redfern police force. they arranged pickup of my puppy although things got ugly quickly, although the new buyers had their money back, decided I must not deserve to have her if she could be stolen in the first place and them and a dozen friends and relie's came to the station to demand her back. So while they were demonstrating in the foyer I and my puppy was smuggled out the back entrance in a paddy waggon. scary stuff! days later the japanese lady spotted an add by the couple she bought my puppy from, a friend made an appointment to see the advertised pet at a service station and asked for their number plate so she could recognise who she was looking for. I notified the police that the theives would be there and the time but nope , didnt want to know, told me I had to notify the police where the service station was, went there and again no one wanted to know, well that is until I gave them the licence plate. BOY! the place emptied and I mean it, 20 shot out of the place , no kidding. turned out there were 6 warrants out for the owner of that car. they were tagged as armed and dangerous and professional house breakers. well they nabbed em, high on ice they said, the both confessed but he retracted and the wife pleaded guilty and received a suspended sentance. so the message is the only way to be safe is never let anyone know where you live. or if you let people come because thanks to the stuff on sites Saying you have to, or unethical, and they do come back and help themselves, do your own legwork if you want any hopes but its pretty hard though, they are the only two to come back home

That is a very different statement to what you posted above. Stop exaggerating and being ridiculous. And I'm no fan of the RSPCA. Their kill stats are abhorrent. But he did not say that every single greyhound that comes to them will be slaughtered no questions asked. Pointing to RSPCA kill stats is classic diversion tactics. Again the industry and its supporters try to just point the finger away from their own failings rather than accept the unacceptable issues from within. This is exactly why shutting down the industry is the only answer. Now, anyone want to provide any evidence of the move to erode pet ownership in the many countries that banned Greyhound racing long ago? Or is that all just scaremongering and sky is falling reactions from those who think that the level of 'wastage' needed to support people gambling is just fine and dandy? I think I know which it is... Could you please post the names of the countries that have banned grey racing? The USA for one has banned it in almost all States for some time. As for your quote - again, that is NOT what Asal said, which is that all Greyhounds will be automatically slaughtered without even being given a chance. I want a source for that quote (there isn't one, because it was never said). Some states in the USA doesn't count as a country so if we dont know what countries have banned it how do you expect us to answer your question? The USA is over run by PETA freaks who push for all manner of nutty things and just because the USA do anything regarding animals,trade wages, or people, presidents or wars is not reference for us following suit. USA pushes for desexing all animals and Norway makes it illegal. An assumption that things are the same worldwide are on par with an assumption that most involved here are the bad guys. If the facts point to a ban being justified then why the gag on parliamentary debate and natural justice being delivered. This isn't just about the greys its about how a group of fanatics have been able to press their opinion and will upon a group they dont agree with without due process. You are missing my point. Many here are stating that banning greyhound racing will open up the floodgates for the end of pet dogs. 43 (I think) of 50 US states banned greyhound racing some time ago. There are only a couple of states left with an active industry. If one equals the other, where is the push to end pet ownership? Where is the slippery slope? What legislation has followed that took away people's rights to own pets? The answer is none because it is absurd to equate the two. Recognising that it is unacceptable for an industry to kill tens of thousands of dogs in a ten year period as 'wastage' so that people can gamble (not to mention all the other issues) and ending that industry for welfare reasons in no way relates to stopping people from owning pets. People can gamble on something other than living beings that suffer based on our greed. Thank you for your posts Anne. Heartbreaking, This kind of fear is basic human behaviour which is set in us since caveman days .We are programmed to hear a twig snap and fear the worst . In this case some of the people you are interacting with have some pretty horrific situations which they have experienced that wont allow them to think the twig snapping may be someone coming to bring them dinner rather than coming to take away all they hold dear. Recent history shows us that each time we turn around there is some new law regarding breeding and owning dogs, BSL, where we can take them ,how many we can own what we can do with them,where and how we can advertise them, where we can sell them,how we are to feed them, when we can mate them etc. Any activity regarding dogs has had a shot or two lodged at it but especially the show ring via pedigree dogs exposed and any type of breeding . It's a non stop constant barrage and now we see something happening that is completely overlooking the human impact shutting down any opportunity for those affected feeling they have been given a fair go and for those of us watching seeing how easy it has all been to simply decide to change the rules and get away with it. Why would anyone who gets hammered everyday for daring to have an opinion that doesn't fit with the nutters where the majority have learned to keep their campfires low and stay off the track and don't raise their voices or their heads tell anyone where they live or how many dogs they own because the AR might come after them not hear the twigs snapping and think its something coming to eat them? You may not think that an industry that is accused of killing thousands of dogs a year as wastage is the same as numbers of other dogs in pounds being considered wastage and the stated cruelty of the greyhound industry is not the same in the big scheme of things shouted about by animal rights as the accusations of cruelty in almost every area of dog ownership but its pushed every time we turn around and if you think the fanatics who yell and scream aren't thinking what comes next I'm thinking you may have missed a bit. So for you the two may not be linked but that doesn't mean there is no basis for the fear or that the feelings and fears of the humans should be so easily tossed off. EXACTLY Look how quickly the vilification of dog breeders has taken off. look at the definations of a shonky puppy farmer. I received this unsolicited email from I gather a new puppy website Promote your Breed and Bloodline! Join Australia's leading FREE online dog classified website. Petagree promotes your bloodline, reputation and track record, ensuring that you receive top dollar for your hard work. Create your own profile, upload your puppies and your breeders. Easily manage your litter or a single dog. " Free to Join Manage Your Profile Link to Breed Associations Upload Multiple Pics Request Reviews Get More Leads Petagree's unique system allows owners to connect to more buyers, whilst given those buyers a greater insight into your breed, based on prior ratings and customer feedback. Petegree promotes the sale of shelter dogs above all others. If you would like us to upload your profile and all your current dogs for FREE Please click "Visit Petagree" below" being curious I applied to join and then received this "Welcome to Petagree! Thank you for your registration. Our staff are reviewing your account information and you will be available to login once we approve it. This security check is required with each registration to prevent puppy farmers. With Love for Dogs! Petagree " I then send an email asking how and what are they going to "security check" me? still waiting on an answer. but perusing their site spotted this. "Petagree connects buyers to ethical dog breeders and shelters across Australia." and "No Parents If the breeder cannot let you meet the parents, you should walk away. Not meeting the parents is like buying a car without knowing the make. Don’t do it. For all you know, these people did not even breed the puppy, but are selling him secondhand for unknown reasons. Lets Meet Elsewhere If you call a breeder and they say “let’s meet somewhere” when you ask to visit their kennel, it’s a puppy mill. Usually they will try to get you to meet in a store parking lot or a park. Unless there are extreme circumstances, there is no reason why should not see where your puppy was born. Several Breeds Reputable breeders focus on one breed, maybe two, MAX. If you find a site offering five different breeds (and their mixes!), it’s a puppy mill. Multiple Litters When you call the breeder and ask if they have puppies, do they respond with “I have one litter coming, but there is already a waiting list” or “oh yes, I have 3 litters on the ground and 2 more on the way”? If the breeder has 30 puppies, that is definitely a puppy mill. No Vaccinations Puppy mills don’t like to spend money, it deters from profits. So the parents may not be vaccinated (you should ask!) and the puppies probably are not. Or, conversely, they have so many puppies they lost track and your pup got vaccinated twice. Extreme Promises Dr. Kathryn Primm DVM, says to be wary about the breeder promising a certain size, temperament, or characteristic that seems extreme. For example, a dog came into her clinic that was supposed to be a Pomeranian and Husky mix that the breeder had promised would never grow lover than 7 pounds. She was 42 pounds. Lack of Cleanliness This goes for the dog and the breeder’s home or kennel. Dr. Primm says puppies from puppy mills are more likely to smell like a kennel and have poor coat quality. Contract Your breeder should care enough about what happens to the puppy that she has a contract protecting both you and her. Reputable breeders have a spay/neuter agreement, breed papers, health contract, and a request that you return the dog to them if it doesn’t work out (rather than dumping him at the shelter). Too Young Another way they can cut their costs is by giving you the puppy early, because they do not have to feed them, give them shots, etc. Question any breeder wanting to give you the puppy before they are eight weeks old. This is the minimum age you should be taking a puppy from their mother and litter-mates." No Parents, many dont have a stud dog, they pay for one using A.I. or natural service. Yet not having both parents puts you into the Unethical category. Lets Meet Elsewhere how soon it is forgotten that the reason a breeders name and address is no longer in the Litters Registered section anymore is because dog thieves were found with a copy of the Monthly Journal with rings around the litters of the stolen puppies they were caught with. I have been a registered breeder since 1978 and during all those years although I havent had a lot stolen over such a long period but I have had three adults taken and 6 puppies taken, the youngest ever taken was march 2014 she was only 3 days old, I knew who took just about every one of them as they had come to see puppies, then returned soon after to remove what they wanted. One was spotted by a neighbour and told her she was looking for petrol as her car had broken down, my neighbour saw the puppy and was suspicious and took her license plate. Actually she taken two puppies, a 5 week old male and a 4 week old bitch puppy, one from each litter, the police didnt want to know about it, she still had them 10 years later and bred many unregistered litters from them, I know because a friend was in the force and gave me the address for the car and I went and saw them playing in her yard, at least they survived but I couldnt get them back, the police were very annoyed with me for asking, one chaps reply was your going on about two puppies when we are overwhelmed with battered and missing children!. even the 3 day old pup, the police refused to go to the home of the person I knew had the pup. all you can hope for is that for those that are already microchipped, one day, some day they will end up at a vets and you will get the call to come pick up your "missing" dog. the chip register will only put that the dog is missing.NOT STOLEN. A friend has Nissan GTR's he is constantly updating parts for his beloved cars, selling parts he has upgraded, buying parts he wants. HE WILL NEVER permit a buyer to come to his home. HE MEETS THEM WHERE? ELSEWHAREyet thanks to rubbish like this you have to let the bastards come to your home to prove your bloody ETHICAL? the real word's is stupid. cowed and afraid to be tarred and feathered as unethical if you don't bow to the pressure. Several Breeds can be an issue if some people actually like several breeds, or in one case i know wife likes one breed, hubby another and the kids another. or in the case of a friend, keeps a number of rare breeds in addition to her favorite breed, to keep their number up and encourage people to keep these rare breeds going. Its no where near as cut as dried as that implies. But then, as is now increasingly obvious, freedom of choice is no longer your prerogative if you have dogs Multiple Litters Any doctor can tell you when a large group of women all live together they will begin to cycle together. Dogs are the same, once it was considered a good idea to put bitches in pup at the same time, the benefit being one with a large litter could have some of her puppies fostered to a bitch who had a small litter, in the case of one developing milk feaver, her puppies could be fostered so she could have a rest and not risk a repeat. far better for the puppies than bottle feeding nutrition wise no matter how touted the benefits of the bottle fed. Not today though its the mark of what? the unethical, no mention of the practical . No Vaccinations no argument with that one, It never ceases to amaze me when some one asks can they buy a puppy unvaccinated and do it themselves, the easy answer to that is "what? do you want a dead puppy? thats whats the most likely result of taking any puppy that hasnt been vaccinated at least 2 weeks before you pick it up. Extreme Promises most likely newbies who haven't a clue, if can, educate them. Lack of Cleanliness thats another not that simple, if they turn up just after some have decided to make a mess your now unethical. the darned things don't work to a schedule, clean one minute , doo's the next and your sunk if its not out of sight FAST. Contract Agree with most of it but note to be an ethical have a "spay/neuter agreement" and just try asking for a main register pup these days. Since when was a breeder going to do any but supply pets and the line dies with them, be anything but a dead end breeder? whatever happened to pass on the genes to the next generation of breeders. Now you need to be a dead end breeder to prevent your precious lines falling into the hands of a puppy farmer. What would have happened if those entrusted with your dogs ancestors had done the same? no wonder there are fewer and fewer new breeders. Well not unless they are going to buy from unregistered breeders and continue those lines instead. No pressure though in that is there? If a car is stolen the person who took it is a thief. If a puppy or a dog is stolen, it was probably being "rescued". the act is the same, yet on one case the thief is just that, in the second case, the owner is the one under suspicion.

That is a very different statement to what you posted above. Stop exaggerating and being ridiculous. And I'm no fan of the RSPCA. Their kill stats are abhorrent. But he did not say that every single greyhound that comes to them will be slaughtered no questions asked. Pointing to RSPCA kill stats is classic diversion tactics. Again the industry and its supporters try to just point the finger away from their own failings rather than accept the unacceptable issues from within. This is exactly why shutting down the industry is the only answer. Now, anyone want to provide any evidence of the move to erode pet ownership in the many countries that banned Greyhound racing long ago? Or is that all just scaremongering and sky is falling reactions from those who think that the level of 'wastage' needed to support people gambling is just fine and dandy? I think I know which it is... the quote was from some one else and I stated that when I pasted it. I also stated what I had actually heard.

Suspect the lady who said this on facebook time may prove her right. "I believe that as the New South Wales Government doesn't have a "no kill" policy for all animal shelters state wide they are colossal hypocrites with no moral authority to shut down Greyhound Racing. The fact is that extreme animal rights activists want to end all human animal/ interaction and will go after every category including: eventually, domestic pets. We are living with a totalitarian authoritarian Government which will trample on the rights of all instead of taking punitive action against the tiny minority who do the wrong thing." this was just put up " I think there is something in the UN sustainable living documents about how domestic animals are not part of a sustainable future. It might take some searching to find the relevant documents but the future mapped out for humanity in this agenda is high rise city living along public transport corridors and depopulating the countryside. It is all there to be found in the UN's own documents." keep you posted if they find and post the relevant documents

Well I was watching the news and Coleman himself said he anticipated the majority would be euthanised going on previous kill rates for the previous year. so whoever the quote from I put, probably heard him too. if your argument is the kill rate , pet dogs will be next then considering the tens of thousands rspca already euthanasia every year, its a no win situation for the dogs unless Baird brings in NO KIll shelters for all canines

the reality has began apparently. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/mike-baird-greyhound-ban-breeder-told-to-prepare-to-put-down-litter-of-newborn-puppies/news-story/d84f802a12ee3e91b0be8eed907a9372 according to this, any dog born in nsw cannot be relocated to another state for racing? To all of you anti racers who monitor this page: the blood is now on your hands. You wanted the end of greyhound racing because of 'wastage' but the end of racing means the death of more dogs and the death of a breed. And yet you're still celebrating your 'win'. You're guilty of slaughtering more dogs then any other group of people. RSPCA have already come out and stated any greyhound surrendered to them will be immediately slaughtered no questions asked and no attempt at rehoming. Baird's legislation states that any pup born between now and the ban CANNOT be sold interstate and no dog's registration can be transferred to another State meaning every single dog in NSW is doomed and faces mass genocide at your hands!

actually that's the scary bit, no one is considered entitled to an opinion that does not mirror Bairds or AR. To do so is to have stepped across the line of decency. you cant recognise it because you agree with them both and so do not see or feel the threat to those to don't agree 80% should be punished for the behavior of 20%

how awful, and if the government is going to lump all greyhound owners in with them wonder if an additional legislation will be rushed in so all can be put on strict conditional bail? the closing down in the first place is because all have been found guilty by association with the 20% offending. anyway this was forwarded to me, probably of little benefit agains a man whose mind is already made up. but putting the link for those who may want to do something https://www.change.org/p/nsw-premier-mike-baird-overturn-the-nsw-government-s-decision-to-ban-greyhound-racing/share?utm_medium=email&utm_source=notification&utm_campaign=new_petition_recruit

I guess wherever there appears to be inconsistency there are two main possibilities. 1) Some things are not true; 2) Most things are true. It seems counter-intuitive, but sometimes apparent inconsistencies are attempts to describe a complex and varied situation. Sometimes one thing is the case and sometimes almost the opposite, but both occur. In the case of greyhounds, people are very emotional and upset. I feel they are saying things without a lot of thought sometimes. Whether those things are correct in some circumstances or not is difficult to figure out. Sometimes there is a story in the grey areas between inconsistencies. There are a lot of things I have been unable to get a straight answer on in the greyhound racing industry. It became apparent after a while that this is because there really isn't one. Lots of variation in how things are done and how people are participating in the industry means there is no single answer that encompasses a majority. agreed and both are true for many.You dont make money out of breeding dogs because all you make goes back into the dogs including infastructure and facilities whch could be sold after you retire but if there is no one any longer needing the kennels etc they drop rapidly in value. This might be true for companion dogs but it's not necessarily true for greyhounds. When you sell a litter of eight greyhound pups for $3,000* each, there is a hell of a lot of money in it. And while some might put profits back into better facilities, many don't. I'm sure there are a few who treat breeding greyhounds as a profession and try to do it to very high standards but the majority would be hobby or casual breeders- a couple of litters a year and to them, not really worth expensive upgrades to facilities or purpose-building things. Most breeders I've seen down here use little tin sheds in dirt yards- hardly the birthing suites at the Cedars-Sinai. *This number is not pulled from the air, by the way. Took a random page of classifieds from GD, worked out the mean price of pups on that page. Mean was $3,125 a pup, median was $3000. It is as true for any breed of dog as any other. There are so many variables that it's impossible for an outsider to judge whether someone is making a profit or not . However, there is no shame in making money out of breeding dogs anyway and if some one is able to do it and still cover doing what is best for the dogs then full marks to them . 8 puppies at 3000 each still doesn't equate to much when consideration is made for vetting dogs from puppy through to adult,vetting of the bitch and the litter ,feeding adult dogs all year and puppies as long as they stay , stud services, and a hundred other things. They sure as hell don't get anywhere near enough to go anywhere near getting paid for their time. If someone is saying things about their state of the art kennels then its a fair guess that this breeder has more than tin sheds and dirt yards, that they have invested lots of time and money into building them and had expectations of getting some of their money back when they sell. I love the people who expect to be paid a wage for their work, yet look down on anyone who bred the puppy they want , not only for "having bred their fur child and prostituted its babies for money", I have heard that said by a chap driving a 100,000 car, perhaps someone gave it to him? But to ask a price that not only covers the cost of breeding it, to ask more to cover the time they spent caring for them? They consider their work and time is worth money but not the breeder of the pet they want? strange thinking.

Standardbreds maybe, but gallopers never! If a Sheik can stop a mining company, and let's face it, they run the government, then Baird will be squashed in an instance. Let alone the fact the Thoroughbred racing industry is the second largest employer in the country and racing brings millions into the State economy. close, but so do greyhounds, the difference is that extra comma, Billions from tb racing

has this been posted before? http://www.racenet.com.au/mobile/article.asp?id=125683 neddies next

Well... I would say they believe those who say things that confirm their already held beliefs. ;) Inconsistencies don't seem to bother the majority of people IME. I don't think they even notice seeing as they are quite focused on confirmation. Those that are very opposed use them to their advantage, but often make the same kind of mistakes anyway. I doubt there were many on the fence after the live baiting scandal. Those that were never involved much suddenly had a good reason to care. It is difficult not to be moved by that footage. I still cringe and look away. Personally, I tend to dismiss sources of information of questionable accuracy. It doesn't make me think better or worse of either side of an argument. I just need better information. But, you know, that's what I've been trained to do. :) I agree that a single, reasoned voice for the industry would help, and these are times when strong leadership is critical, but it's not going to happen. People still need to express themselves. We have had these discussions in the training world, and I have argued time and time again that emotive arguments and selective reporting loses the very people that are most persuadable. No one ever listens to me, though. They are very frightened that any shift from the party line might mean they are condoning things they vehemently oppose. I've had people come to me for information precisely because they have seen me present both sides of an argument without much emotion. So, I still believe it wins people over. But, people hate to be told to be quiet when they have a lot to say. They of course believe they are helping by saying it. Suggesting maybe they are not tends to result in a great deal of hostility! so few realise how well organised AR is. either get a equal campaign up and running or it is going to succeed across the board. wrote this as a reply to a vegan who believes horses too are now fur children like our dogs. (bit like a animal farm possible scenario perhaps, will it happen or not is the question) I believe in freedom of choice and democracy. people donate their organs, their bodies for research. yet horses of no longer use whose owners do not have the facilities to keep, and no where to bury it, it are not to be allowed to send it to slaughter? that is a huge amount of meat going to waste and believe it or not dogs and cats cannot go vegan without health problems they are carnivores not omnivorous if u want omnivorous get a bear if the greyhound industry is to be shut down because 20% are offenders, then why is the churches not being closed down to protect our children as pell and that anglican bishop have proved, the church isn't going to protect them, close em down. Baird can then cash that too along with all the utilities he is selling to the highest bidder. as for the unfettered crap, the only thing fettered is the idiots who are registered breeders, they are the only ones being legislated into circles. it was said there are some 18 million dogs kept as pets, 90% of them couldn't possibly have come from registered breeders but the 90% who no one knows about are free to do as they please. the rspca figures was something like 176,000 Australia wide strays. the ankc only registers on average and its falling 60,000 in any given year registered where do u think the other 116,000 morphed from? cloning? cattle , sheep, goats and pigs are just as sentient as any horse, pigs for example are far smarter than dogs. I do think the day is comming when all abbatoirs will be closed down and everyone become vegan or chemically made 'meat' is the only choice. I expect it will not be too long before these will be extinct apart from a few kept so people can see what they looked like. but then this planet is being overrun by the human lemmings and once its stripped and uninhabitable the cycle will begin same as it did for the dinosours the vegan answer for people might seem a good one, although thanks to the csg spread even if they can be grown cleanly in greenhouses as is being done in spain, the air polution coming from the csg fields is going to add up same as it did until hydrocarbons were banned, they aren't going to ban csg production, too many mega bucks involved. although this country isnt going to benefit, local manufacturers are already complaining prices are going so high they will have to relocate overseas where the SAME gas is being exported and sold at half what the aussie companies are being slugged for gas sourced in their own country. its a weird world now you cant upgrade the horse to the status of fur child as has been done with dogs and deny cattle, sheep, goats, pigs and all other domestic animals the same rights and villify those who callously breed them for that worst of all vices, profit. almost forgot the chooks ducks and turkeys . at least our govenment is being even handed, every other business has been or in the process of closure and manufactured overseas. AH! HOW DID I MISS IT? those who still long for a fur child will probably be able to import one along with their, shirt, shoes, dress, fridge, laptop, smartphone and everything else on a more happy note, (Imp) after any animals name makes it more special anyway. (ps, havent researched the exact figures, trying to remember what I read so any corrections would be appreciated)

I'm actually just asking a question I thought was an interesting one. Just because no lure courser has ever mentioned it doesn't mean anything really... it must be nice to be able to idly speculate on this without having any worries about potentially losing something you have put years of effort into with ever harming an animal. These sorts of comments are dangerous right now. The baiting stuff is worse than a lie, if it had not been for the baiting scandal the vast majority of LC participants would have had no idea what baiting even was in the first place. It has been put out there by people who have no experience with LC to create a wedge that will eventually come after other dog sports, and just about any other dog that isn't a generic couch dog. Great Dane owners would want to be careful about that, because I can see size winding up as one of the idiotic criteria we end up having used against us (big dogs being unhealthy, and all that). LC only found itself in the Greyhound enquiry report because some bright spark decided to indulge in that sort of speculation. Even a cursory attempt at research would have revealed that he sport of lure coursing was CREATED to obviate the need for live game. What part of that is difficult to for people to grasp?? We don't use fur or fake fur. We use plastic bags. Dogs chase bags for the same reason they chase tennis balls. People may find it difficult to believe that a dog will go screaming berserk to chase a plastic bag. That's where getting out from behind the computer screen and attending an event is illustrative. I'm told that the science was that live baiting wasn't particularly effective in getting greyhounds to chase a mechanical lure. It was the sort of "dog training" that stemmed from the same timeframe that brought you rubbing dogs noses in their faeces to "toilet train" them. Dog training has moved on. I feel for the greyhound trainers who have been dragged down by the troglodytes in the industry. What's next? No check chains? No crates? Watch this space people because it now appears that idle speculation and even the potential for abuse will see babies tossed out with bathwater as the AR brigade move onto their next target. They have already proven that a good misinformation campaign and rubbery statistics will get them over the line. They have good reason to be confidant, its been pretty successful so far. was reading a website explaining how to spot a puppy farm. one of the criteria was the breeder had more than one litter to rise or another due soon. Even women living in the same house tend to synchronise, a doctor told me, same applies to dogs, horses u name it. Old time, obviously utterly stupid breeders (I gather) liked some of their bitches to have them at the same time or near, a big litter could be split to a bitch with only a small litter and less stress all round. both on the bitches and the breeder. if three litters near similar ages if one mum came down with milk fever she could be rested and her puppies fed by another, I know I raised a litter for a friend as hers had milk fever and mine only had 2 puppies, we helped each other at such times, but now a puppy cannot leave its breeder before its 8 weeks, so fostering someone else's puppy or puppies can get you facing the ethics committee these days, (it happened a few years ago, two friends were at a show and the one raising a fostered pup said to the other friend, can I buy that puppy? dont worry about getting it vaccinated, it can go to the vet with my puppies" some sharp ear's soul twigged the puppy referred to was obviously under 8 weeks and reported the sale of an under 8 week puppy and the fat hit the fan, it had been fostered at 3 days old) but common sense has little credibility anymore.

Exactly! and when is this same government intending doing anything as the churches both catholic and anglican reek of the appalling pedophilia coverups? will Baird be shutting down the churches and acquiring the real estate into consolidated revenue too ? friend involved in getting justice said there are some 500,000 survivors still alive of all ages australia wide. bit bigger scene so a bit of action might be about time, gives "suffer the little children" a whole new slant I doubt Jesus ever had in mind. Or are we to seriously believe dogs and their treatment ranks above the past and I don't doubt ongoing ruination of the lives of tens of thousands of children annually? or is it less distasteful because I am told approximately 70% euthanise themselves. at least domestic violence only euthanises about some 500 or 600 annually, figures aren't high enough to warrant action against holding the entire population responsible yet

it was posted before they will make some $170 $200 for every one put down, nice little money earner. as for the govt all that land now free for development. thats what counts , the sale of the nsw electricty utilities to china was stopped much to bairds fury and I cant blame him, every other state has had their sales cleared even the sale of darwain port, we will be as displaced as the original land owners by the time our govts has sold or leased everything they can at this rate anyway?

Right on about anyone can take their dog to the vet and have it put down for no better reason then they want it put down, daughter wanted to be a vet and did work experience at a big practice, it broke her heart how many perfectly healthy young dogs came in daily, by the end of a week she had held over a dozen by the second week dozens, some were greyhounds think 3 in the 2 weeks she was there, the others some 30 odd were pets who either barked too much,had grown too big, they shed too much, chewed too much, the owner was moving or the kids had lost interest, she was devastated and scotched that line of work. but she had to admit that was better than the ones we often see in our area dumped and looking at every passing car looking for their owners, school holidays around here are the worst, mainly its big breeds, German shepherds, labs , goldens, or bullie breed. The big surprise was a car slowed down, the door opened and they didn't even stop the wheels rolling as they dumped a half grown boston terrier. it did its best to keep up with the car for nearly a k before came to a confused halt. Picked up my dog food today and the lady at the counter believes once their greyhound trade is gone the business wont be able to continue. Wonder how many know the massive Petbarn franchise began with a greyhound trainer who began buying his dog food by the ton to save, friends began to ask can they get some , then friends of friends n friends of their friends began turning up, until his wife said enough and he leased a warehouse in Kingswood. It all mushroomed from there. There is millions going to be missing in income right down the chain, dog food, vets, even the tab income share for nsw n Baird. Heck hes trying to sell the electricity infrastructure to make ends meet, must be furious the china deal has been scotched.

You know that the muzzling requirements are already BSL? Why should Greyhounds be subject to Breed Specific Legislation, particularly once they will no longer be being bred for the purposes of racing and live baited? Because greyhounds have a higher prey drive than many other breeds, regardless of baiting or training, and there is a percentage that will see small dogs as prey. It's not discrimination, it's a breed trait. I have owned greys with very high drive (and still do) and while they are lovely dogs with people and larger dogs, they absolutely would kill something small and fluffy if they got the chance. Part of being a responsible owner is recognising and managing breed traits- pretending they don't exist does the breed no favours. Prey drive is a *dog* trait, and not exclusive to any one breed. There are many breeds that have a higher potential for prey drive, and many dogs within many breeds that have a high prey drive. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that will kill other dogs for non-prey drive reasons too. Breed Specific Legislation has been shown time and time again to be a complete failure in preventing dog attacks. Adequate and well resourced animal management and education programs are what is effective. Roughly 25% of greys are not small dog safe. Let one of those dogs off lead at a park with a small dog and you'll have a dead small dog in less time than it takes you to realise what is happening. If your greyhound is muzzled and on leash, it can't chase down, grab and shake to death someone else's pet. Muzzling/leashing greyhounds is in no way similar to BSL for things like bull breeds. Muzzling/leashing is for their safety and the safety of other dogs/cats/small animals. In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible but back here in reality, greyhounds could be at risk of actual BSL if ignorant idiots are allowed to let their greys run unmuzzled and offlead. I know you don't understand the issue with greyhounds all that well (given you've had this same argument with Hazywal before) but if you're keen to find out for yourself, you're welcome to have one of my high drive fosters for a few weeks >.> (That is a serious offer, by the way. Nothing educates quite like the sight of your dog chasing down and destroying someone else's dog, while the attacked dog's owner screams for it to stop) Roughly 25% of Greyhounds (trusting your stats here) are not small dog safe after coming from an industry that heavily selected them for intense prey drive, did not socialise them to small dogs in their critical socialisation period (and potentially for years after), reinforced that drive over and over again and live baited many of them. I've got lots of experience with prey driven dogs, and once they've had a live kill (catching rabbits, possums, other animals while out or in their yards) the intensity of the drive goes through the roof and becomes much more difficult to manage. I would be *very* interested to see if that 25% stays once we're dealing with dogs that have not been bred, raised and trained in the racing industry. I suspect it won't. As far as I can tell, Australia is one of the only countries with BSL for Greyhounds, yet other countries are not suffering from rampaging Greyhounds killing every small dog in sight while being allowed to run around off leash. On top of that, plenty of non-greencollar approved greyhounds are currently owned by people who do not comply with the legislation, and yet again we are not seeing rampaging greys on the loose killing other dogs in any sort of regularity. I am not doubting that some Greyhounds are a true safety issue around small dogs, from genetics alone. Those dogs need to be rehomed carefully to owners who take their potential seriously, just like dogs of other breeds that also pose a safety risk. Part of that is likely to be the owner muzzling/leashing them in public. If the risk is too great for that individual dog, they should not be rehomed. "In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible" - I agree that we don't live in a perfect world but the people that aren't sensible and responsible won't muzzle and leash their greys regardless of the rules. The vast majority *are* sensible and responsible and prevent their dogs ever being an issue. Meanwhile we have 75%+ of Greys that pose no risk subject to legislation that stigmatises them and hinders their adoptability. We've also got animal management officers wasting time attempting to enforce it rather than focusing on other strategies proven to be successful. ETA: I would genuinely love to take you up on your offer, however I can't foster adult dogs - my dog is an arsehole to them on her own property (super social off the property). Not fair on the other dog. It's a shame as given the industry shutdown I'd really love to foster some Greys over the next 12 months and beyond. Drive is not necessarily hereditary- I rehomed the litter sister of a Launceston Cup winner, he was a hard, driven dog, she went to a home with a cat and a chihuahua. I've had two litter sisters, one went on to be rehomed to the owner of our test small dog and the other.. prey drive too high to rehome. Breeders use popular sires thinking that the drive will be present in the pups but more often than not, litters are completely random. As for things like socialisation.. the impacts are questionable. I had a dog surrendered to me who had been rehomed as a baby puppy, lived his whole life with a particular cat and then at 3 or 4 years of age.. chased down and killed that cat. I've taken in several pups (oopsie litters) who were never trained and again, prey drive levels were random- there was one who was cat safe, one was questionable on cats but fine with small dogs, another was definitely not small dog safe. There is a reason why every greyhound needs to be tested and that is that the dog's background is not particularly useful in estimating level of prey drive. Race training doesn't necessarily make any difference and live baiting only amplifies the dogs who were already on the higher end of the scale. With racing gone, drive will be a lot less of a consideration in breeding and for some people (the ones who will let their dog offlead without thinking about it), I suppose that's a good thing. Personally though.. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for the breed's future. The greys we have today are a product of their purpose- they might not be suited to the sort of person who can't be bothered with a leash but then, the breed shouldn't have to change to suit the lowest common denominator. Water down an important breed trait and you risk losing the characteristics that make the breed what it is. " the breed shouldn't have to change to suit the lowest common denominator. " the entire reason this thread exists is exactly because only one word of yours need changing Breed / industry. it was shut down because of the lowest common denominator. found a dumped puppy today playing chicken with the traffic, (assumed it is dumped, had the lost look and not a house within a mile of where it was) took it to Animal Welfare to be told they are so full they cannot take any strays unless they have been injoured, lucky for the pup they discovered an injury to its tail so now has a safe haven intead of the council pound they were going to send me too instead, I doubt it would have had much of a future at a pound being so young and no chip odds are isnt vaccinated either n pounds are a death sentance for such pups im told. there certainly isnt any room for an influx of greyhounds there at the moment

Very happy about this yet your next sentence is lots of dogs are going to be destroyed. There is no plan in place as yet. Maybe in 3 months according to the Government. What happens to all the greys in Vic, for example, waiting their turn to go into GAP or rescue? Will they be displaced by NSW dogs? Are all the bleeding hearts a suitable home for a greyhound? I'd suggest no. It's not as if they couldn't have adopted a greyhound previously so why didn't they? Cause they don't want one. The homes aren't there. The ANKC world had better hope eyes aren't turned their way, after all they have a few bad eggs who do the wrong thing, much like the greyhound world. And look at what has happened to Greyhounds NSW. think is pretty obvious answer. The precendent is set. some bad eggs mean the rest go too. was wondering why no questions in the censis asked if a household had pets , what species and how many? now that would have let the cat out of the bag as to how many there actually are would have been seriously interesting to have accurate instead of estimate figures well apparently some in the farming sector think they will be next under the spotlight Perhaps some of the comments on the farming forum re this photo sum up the problems actually, " But cows only eat one meal a day. One, incredibly long meal. consider how long it has been since an actual farmer had a hand in writing laws.." The same applies to even the so called code of ethics the the ankc's have adopted. My vet commented "no repro vet could have agreed with the one litter per year rule, bitches were intended by nature to have their litters one after the other while young, then retired early in their life, the older the bitch the same problems arise as in older women, the more mutations in the aged eggs". What I found particularly interesting was the speaker was a long serving vet at RSPCA Victoria and left because of the increasing influence of AR activists