asal

Not sure how big she is / will be. having seen dozens and dozens of kelpie x border x coolie pups I have never seen one resembling them. and there are some lovely cream kelpies and borders. the head just isnt right and if no one remembers all three, kelpie, border and coolie, have a neck ruff, on the border and the coolie, in addition they have ruffs down the back of the legs and long tail hair. the kelpie has a shorter body coat but the border and the coolie have LONG COATS on the body .Those puppies are smooth coat with no neck ruff or leg ruffs? ok this pup is chocolate but see the ruff that runs down from the ears even in a baby as young as this which is a fair bit younger than the first photo of the gold puppy Hey found a photo of a gold smoothcoat Coolie, only ever seen the longcoat ones. https://blog.pawedin.com/app/uploads/2015/12/koolie-laying-down-in-the-grass.jpg

No they weren't, the emphasis was on livelihoods and the misinformation in the inquiry, the reforms that have been implemented were only a very small part of it. I do know what you are saying is true re whistleblowers that is why if the law outside the industry was on their side they would have had more power to be listened to as I said before. I know you have had dealings with scum just as I have but they are not the only ones in this industry but they are the only ones that are worth giving anecdotal credence to as the good stuff is uninteresting. If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change. As for people only paying attention to the bad stuff.. maybe part of that is because it outweighs a lot of the good when you're on the disposals end of the business. Last weekend, for the first time in the roughly ten years I have been rescuing greyhounds, a trainer agreed to take back a dog that wasn't suitable for rehoming. The first time. In ten years. The other 99.9% of the time, I get told that if I "won't keep the dog myself" (trying to make me feel guilty for not keeping every dog who fails) that I should take it to a vet to be PTS. My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative. Some trainers are kind enough to let me take the dogs they no longer want, but many will not if it inconveniences them by so much as having to keep the dog for one day longer than they want to. For a very long time, I defended the industry for the sake of the breed but I'm done. I won't be quiet while people like asal obfuscate the discussion with garbage about secret agendas and the RSPCA and immigrants and wars, trying to distract people away from the facts- ironically, to suit the agenda that they have. I love the breed and I don't want to see it disappear but I can't support what I know to be wrong. good post until you mentioned secret agenda's, its not secret. the only agenda as you put it was AR is not about animal rights its about eliminating domestic animals, even the victorian govt has finally noticed that the rspca is no longer animal welfare focused,I saw the letter In Jacki Kelly's office in Penrith, sent to a member of her staff, the staff member showed it to me personally in 2000 extorting her to get her family and friends to join and vote as PETA was attempting to infiltrate and take over. Considering the change in direction since the coup has been accomplished. But hey whatever floats your boat. no one is listening to you or me. there are bad people , there are good people and millions in between. the majority go with whatever flow is passing with no thought to the future or what it means You have admitted that you don't actually know shit about what goes on in the industry. Unlike you, my opinion of the industry is formed from knowledge and experience. I am not an AR supporter, I live 27km away from a pit filled with hundreds of dead greyhounds that the industry regulators are well aware of. God only knows how many greyhounds, all from one trainer. So yeah, tell me again about how my feelings about the industry are just buying into AR propaganda. You're making assumptions there. I understand perfectly well why the industry does what it does. There is no great mystery to it. Desperately trying to pretend that those of us who feel that the current industry needs to be completely dismantled are somehow ignorant of the causes or possible fixes of the issue is almost as absurd as the arguments that equate greyhound trainers with refugees. If you think people who use small animals to bait dogs, or people who will euthanase 30% of a litter without a second thought, are deserving of even more chances to continue as they are, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what is/isn't acceptable for the welfare of the dogs. Way to represent ANKC breeders, btw- as essentially supportive of an industry that is rife with massive welfare issues, just to protect their own arses. Nice work. reply and quote what I did say, and dismiss anything I have if you like. but the red is not said by me. I think to be fair attribute it to who did say it when you reply surely

No they weren't, the emphasis was on livelihoods and the misinformation in the inquiry, the reforms that have been implemented were only a very small part of it. I do know what you are saying is true re whistleblowers that is why if the law outside the industry was on their side they would have had more power to be listened to as I said before. I know you have had dealings with scum just as I have but they are not the only ones in this industry but they are the only ones that are worth giving anecdotal credence to as the good stuff is uninteresting. If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change. As for people only paying attention to the bad stuff.. maybe part of that is because it outweighs a lot of the good when you're on the disposals end of the business. Last weekend, for the first time in the roughly ten years I have been rescuing greyhounds, a trainer agreed to take back a dog that wasn't suitable for rehoming. The first time. In ten years. The other 99.9% of the time, I get told that if I "won't keep the dog myself" (trying to make me feel guilty for not keeping every dog who fails) that I should take it to a vet to be PTS. My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative. Some trainers are kind enough to let me take the dogs they no longer want, but many will not if it inconveniences them by so much as having to keep the dog for one day longer than they want to. For a very long time, I defended the industry for the sake of the breed but I'm done. I won't be quiet while people like asal obfuscate the discussion with garbage about secret agendas and the RSPCA and immigrants and wars, trying to distract people away from the facts- ironically, to suit the agenda that they have. I love the breed and I don't want to see it disappear but I can't support what I know to be wrong. good post until you mentioned secret agenda's, its not secret. the only agenda as you put it was AR is not about animal rights its about eliminating domestic animals, even the victorian govt has finally noticed that the rspca is no longer animal welfare focused,I saw the letter In Jacki Kelly's office in Penrith, sent to a member of her staff, the staff member showed it to me personally in 2000 extorting her to get her family and friends to join and vote as PETA was attempting to infiltrate and take over. Considering the change in direction since the coup has been accomplished. But hey whatever floats your boat. no one is listening to you or me. there are bad people , there are good people and millions in between. the majority go with whatever flow is passing with no thought to the future or what it means

Maddy, animal rights have one agenda, no pets. many pure bred breeders are happy to join the get rid of backyarders and that includes adding to the witch hunt any pure bred member of their group who doesn't march to their beat of the drum. as for the millions of backyarders with lovely dogs be they x bred or unpapered purebreds all this legislation isn't going to find them anyway. once the dust settles it is the ankc's will have some decisions to make. open to studbooks to find outside blood due to too few left like happened with the stumpy tailed cattledogs. The untapped gene pool is where the species is going to survive. I do not know any grey hound breeders or racers, I do know some friends whose family members who have a brothers or their dads retired racer gracing their lounge and lives though. such elegant and loving dogs although there doesn't tend to be much room left on a lounge for the human though once those graceful limbs are at full stretch in the gods reclining position

"DOGS Victoria Members - THIS BILL WILL IMPACT YOU Domestic Animals Amendment (Puppy Farm and Pet Shops) Bill 2016 Even if you only have one entire female, and you want to breed, this legislation will affect you. It will mean you must have a DAB issued from your council. If you do not, and you breed and sell your puppies, you will be breaking the law, with hefty fines as a penalty. The consequences are even higher for those with over five dogs, with provisions to build concrete kennels and a strict code you’ll need to follow – and this will be law. Make no mistake you must abide by it or face serious repercussions, including fines and even jail sentences. This Bill affects every single DOGS Victoria member, if you breed or not, it will reduce our ability to continue producing healthy, well socialised purebred puppies. Our dog spots, our shows our hobby will be destroyed. We need your help to spread the message that this Bill is wrong and must be amended. We do not support puppy farms, backyard or commercial breeders, so let’s spread the word that this Bill needs to get it right, first time, so it can target those that are doing the wrong thing. The power is in our numbers. Please support us in getting the word out that ethical, registered DOGS Victoria breeders should not be included in this one-size-fits-all legislation. This is what you can do:" The idiots still dont get it. they are still backing the bill, just they want it to destroy "puppy farms, backyard or commercial breeders" there is no way any bill is not going to target anyone it can identify. EVERY one who does not live in a high rise but a home with a backyard, has fertile female is by that very definition a "backyard breeder", registered with anyone or not. one goes you all go, will they never GET THAT???

sarcasm alert perhaps, interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs? perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime? Well there are still council approvals required - an article on the paper about a council kicking a Greyhound breeder out. A Local Laws issue rather than a welfare issue by the sounds of it. does anyone here honestly think many councils will permit the owner of even one female to register their suburban home as an animal rearing BUSINESS? At a guess this will eliminate 90% if not more of people who live in the suburbs and as Telstra so loves to remind us, their coverage is of 98% of australians. What they dont mention is 90% live in the burbs and the city. Only 8% of those in the country can get reception. many only if they stand on one foot, with their tongue hanging out to the left AND on the highest corner of the property nearest to a tower. We have a property in Gilgandra and there is only one spot where there is reception and its not in the house so tough luck if its raining and u want to make a mobile call. where is the 90% who own pets and are breeders? It isnt the country is it? I recall when the then NSWCC did a survey and discovered something like 80% of long time members and the backbone of the registry were the over 60's and prodominatly pensioners. eliminate that demographic and its endangered species listing if it isnt nearing that already for some The government have suggested in emails to Dogs Vic members that the problem is in calling it a "business" so now they are offering to change the name to a breeder permit. Ah yes, that will flush out all the people that never advertise or sell on social media. I doubt it will "flush" even one, but eliminating a high percentage of the members of Dogs Vic is certainly on the cards

sarcasm alert perhaps, interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs? perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime? Well there are still council approvals required - an article on the paper about a council kicking a Greyhound breeder out. A Local Laws issue rather than a welfare issue by the sounds of it. does anyone here honestly think many councils will permit the owner of even one female to register their suburban home as an animal rearing BUSINESS? At a guess this will eliminate 90% if not more of people who live in the suburbs and as Telstra so loves to remind us, their coverage is of 98% of australians. What they dont mention is 90% live in the burbs and the city. Only 8% of those in the country can get reception. many only if they stand on one foot, with their tongue hanging out to the left AND on the highest corner of the property nearest to a tower. We have a property in Gilgandra and there is only one spot where there is reception and its not in the house so tough luck if its raining and u want to make a mobile call. where is the 90% who own pets and are breeders? It isnt the country is it? I recall when the then NSWCC did a survey and discovered something like 80% of long time members and the backbone of the registry were the over 60's and prodominatly pensioners. eliminate that demographic and its endangered species listing if it isnt nearing that already for some

sarcasm alert perhaps, interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs? perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime?

Are we talking about greyhounds here or dogs in general? Because this discussion is specifically about greyhound racing and that really narrows down the people involved. The vast majority of participants are involved to make money. If money was not the reason for their involvement, dogs wouldn't be discarded like used tissues. If they were truly in it for the love of the dogs, they wouldn't be shooting the dogs, dumping the dogs, overbeeding the dogs to the point that rehoming them all becomes impossible. If it was "just a hobby", they sure as hell wouldn't be dropping $10k on a pup or constantly looking for ways to illicitly gain an advantage. I'm starting to think that if you're so cool with the industry, maybe YOU should try cleaning up after them. Put your money where your mouth is- you seem to think nothing much is wrong so if that's the case, becoming a greyhound rescuer should be easy work, right? I do understand the likelyhood of what I say below will make no sense to you. perhaps better minds can explain what I am trying to get across with better words and explanation. Ok if joe public can’t be responsible we need laws to force this, we need rules to make Joe public feel if they do not toe the ethical line they have forfeited the right to decide for themselves, particularly in the case of the rights of the animals they keep. Joe public if they buy an animal be it a companion animal like a dog, a cat, a bird.... whatever fits that description. If they buy a horse or a pony, even if they breed it, to be a responsible Joe public, once they have that animal they and they alone are responsible for its well being and care for the life of that animal. If their circumstances change and unable to keep it, to sell is selfish and not thinking of the best interests of the animal they had undertaken the life care of. If that animal develops health or mental problems, Joe public can’t decide to either rehome it or euthanize it, That is shirking the responsibility the purchase had promised that animal for its natural life. In the case of a horse that can be for 30 years or more, no more reselling to someone else to enjoy instead, or if health or temperament issues arise no having it put down or sold for slaughter if they no longer have the will or the interest or the facilities to keep it. Same for any other species of animal, dog cat or whatever. YET. How many tens of thousands of animals of every domestic species is “euthanized” be it by bullet or injection, every year, not only for age, health and let’s not forget the infamous temperament test failure by the very organisation that is leading the charge to have Joe public held accountable, shame able and chargeable for deciding to exercise their (so they thought) legal right to dispose of or euthanize their purchase or bred? For the very same reasons the organisation that is demanding they have no such rights? Does to any animal they take control of? The majority ARE KILLED. Steve Coleman said on National media 70% of all greyhounds are culled because they either fail the temperament tests or homes are not available. Yet the owners who have not sent their dogs to his organisation should have them taken because they cannot be trusted to rehome them responsibly, they forfeited their right because of the numbers he can proved have been put down by their owners, yet he intends killing an even higher percentage but the sheeple don’t read the real figures and ask what is going on here. Notice the headlines of the thousands of greyhounds killed not per year, the figure per year wasn’t shocking enough, what was it 5 year total ? 12 year total. Joe public doesn’t read all the press release just skims and spots the huge cruel figure. The was it 70 or 170 bodies found in a grave on a property, their owner is by law has the right to put down their animals if they so choose as long as it is done humanely, I can remember the headlines many of the dogs had been shot, in country areas that is considered humane, gee you can see special Constable Ashton shooting cattle as they are chased through a gate and being shot twice and three times before they died yet it is called “euthanasia” yet abattoirs’ have been shut down for less, right now an abattoir is being threatened with prosecution because one hit of the captive bolt did not render SOME stock instantly unconscious and it was captured on video. A rifle shot into a running bovine is NOT euthanasia if you did it, how can it be relabelled as such when Ashton does it? There is photographs to support he did so, on more than one occasion, in one video a member of staff resigned on the video rather than be involved in the coming slaughter, yet no prosecution has ever been contemplated When, if ever are the sheeple going to wake up the very organisation wanting to control all animal rights in this country and the people who own them do exactly what they say is why the sheeple should have their rights to decide their animals welfare be taken away from them? But the AR mob know they are on to a good thing educating and training sheeple, get the numbers right, the headlines right and sheeple don’t read the details in between. Ask any breeder who has put an add with the colour, sex, price, date of pickup, vet checked, vaccinated, wormed, chipped and dna tested litter and what are the very questions the majority of callers ask? You don’t need two guesses , just repeat after me what is above. Some get annoyed and suggest perhaps they read the add. Doesn’t pay to get annoyed, they are doing what AR know. The majority of people don’t read what’s there, they skim. See the bit that catches their attention and remember that and that only. Don’t forget if the new laws being pushed for in Victoria get through a breeder, EVERY breeder greyhounds included, is denied the right to keep their retired breeding dog or dogs, they must choose to either rehome or euthanize it? And what is one of the prime crimes of a puppy farmer? They don’t keep their breeding dogs after they are retired, yet this mob want that right removed from anyone owning an entire female used for breeding? Wake up sheeple!

Are we talking about greyhounds here or dogs in general? Because this discussion is specifically about greyhound racing and that really narrows down the people involved. The vast majority of participants are involved to make money. If money was not the reason for their involvement, dogs wouldn't be discarded like used tissues. If they were truly in it for the love of the dogs, they wouldn't be shooting the dogs, dumping the dogs, overbeeding the dogs to the point that rehoming them all becomes impossible. If it was "just a hobby", they sure as hell wouldn't be dropping $10k on a pup or constantly looking for ways to illicitly gain an advantage. I'm starting to think that if you're so cool with the industry, maybe YOU should try cleaning up after them. Put your money where your mouth is- you seem to think nothing much is wrong so if that's the case, becoming a greyhound rescuer should be easy work, right? in case you havent noticed the war is going on in other fronts, greyhounds was almost a winner, victory may have been postponed for a while but still ongoing, those neat little laws hopefully passed in victoria will be shoved forward for all states it will effectively shut down all as will the greyhound agenda. do you really think this isnt all linked? If you haven't noticed, the neddys are in the sights too

So are you saying that the short sharp version closed the organisations down completely or they went OS, or was it that the participants just had to change their culture, no compromises, so the industry could survive? The latter m-j usually - it usually involves rapid down-sizing and sophisticated management of change and people - and that so ain't going to happen here. Management by attrition usually takes a long time, and while it works in some situations I doubt it will work here given the public and political pressure. So yes - I have seen absolutely nothing here to suggest that genuine sustainainble change will happen so this industry will survive in a form that is acceptable to the general public. In fact this decision has probably ensured the slow 'death by a thousand cuts' for this industry, unless it happens again. And yes I'm certain it will all happen again and next time it will be a brutal shutdown. Look the truth is that the days of using animals for gambling and entertainment are severely numbered - its only a matter of time given its a toxic mix that brings out the worst in human beings. So this industry can evolve to shutdown under its own control or have it done to it eventually. They can take their pick which route they take - but they are going to end up in the same place. Bookmark it. Thank you for your reply. As I have said before you are probably right except it will be a pity for the good folk in the industry and they do exist and they have complained but it has fallen on deaf ears. The entertainment and gambling factor of the industry are not to blame for this it is the "win at all cost" mentality. Unfortunately it isn't only in the greyhounds it is across the board in all sports, it is why human athletes get drug tested and are being found positive. Gone are the days when sport was just that sport, now it is business, pity. One example of this is country football/cricket they are paying players from other places to play for them so now the kids that don't make the grade instead of being at the footy or the cricket on Saturday they are entertaining themselves in other ways and not all of them are wholesome. Generally m-j I think we are in agreement - I just don't believe so much in 'the good people' - not one public whistle blower I'm aware of in all the years of greyhound racing? But anyway, yes it is a pity that what might have been a good clean fun hobby has now become 'business' - and when it involves animals you can absolutely bet that greed will overrule any sense of animal welfare and decrease our collective humanity. I think this is why I'm so angry with this industry - as it not only reflects on them, it reflects on all of us. And I wonder if the huge outcry over greyhounds is because they are closer to us than, say horses. The are a companion animal species who live in our homes - and while some people have horses as well most of us don't. So it hits hard. And yes absolutely agree - the moment sport becomes 'business' it moves to a different plane. I'm a great AFL supporter - and sooooo angry with Essendon for the disrepute that they have brought to the game through their 'whatever it takes' 'supplements' program. They are a case study for everything m_j talks about. I've seriously considered going back to supporting grass roots footie through the SANFL - and I might still. And no I won't be watching or betting on 'the race that stops the nation' either. They are out there :) the vet that went onto the ABC show (there is a link at the beginning of this thread) is one example and look what it achieved, nothing. There are many people out there that could tell stories and some have but it got them nowhere. It seems that a certain few of the industry appear to have it sown up so this is why I was hoping legislation would sort it out. I'm not going to hold my breath though the GBOTA put reforms on the table I'm guessing to enhance their chance of keeping the industry and some of those reforms got taken off 3-4 days after the ban was lifted, which really peeved me, same ..... different day. I just hope when the next push to close it comes there will be more thought put into what is going to happen to the dogs. Can you honestly say you were surprised by this? I don't want to see the breed disappear through the complete banning of racing but it seems like the arrogance of those involved is just.. incredible. As soon as they believed they had won, it was back to business as usual. Apparently they'd already reformed enough and everything is fine. A greyhound trainer in Sydney was charged with live baiting the day before the ban was lifted but that's okay because reform, reviews, some paid "research", a liberal application of smoke and mirrors and.. everything is fine. The public can stop looking now, back to business. The arrogance of some is incredible. the question is, do you destroy all? including the 80% the report said are the honest, the caring in the quest to destroy the arrogant? In war it is called "collateral damage" there are a few million survivors of that fleeing that horror and the loss of their homes and way of life, according to the news, many are drowning in the attempt. those to have tried it to get to australia are locked up for longer sentences than pedophiles, rapists and murderers. now add those who have pets for whatever purpose to eliminate the arrogant Sure, allow me to rephrase that: Those with the power to make changes are incredibly arrogant. NSW has proven that it's not an issue of just a few "bad eggs", it's a systemic problem that starts at the top and is pervasive, throughout the industry. Comparing it to war is absurd. Absolutely absurd. Bringing up asylum seekers is equally absurd because it has NOTHING to do with the issue and it is, frankly, an attempt to purposely distract the discussion off onto entirely unrelated subjects (while pointedly ignoring some very important points). But if we're going to use analogies, let me offer you one that actually makes some sense in relation to the discussion: Let's imagine that your dog has cancer. Maybe it started in the bones or lymph nodes, it doesn't really matter too much, all that matters is your dog has cancer and that cancer has spread to many different organs. The organs might not be riddled with cancer but it's there and it damages their normal function and impacts negatively on the dog's welfare. Different treatments for the cancer were tried and although they might have killed a bit of cancer here and there, the cancer is still in every part of your dog. Your dog is in pain, your dog's days are numbered, every other avenue has been tried and has failed. And that only leaves one last option. That option is obviously not ideal but unfortunately, it is inevitable. No offense but we're not talking about minor things like failing to obey leash laws. There is a slight difference between walking your dog off lead and strapping a live animal to a lure arm and allowing dogs to slowly tear it to pieces. I'm not sure how this is confusing for some people? I see the angle you are coming from but to compare the incredibly diverse people who have dogs for equally diverse reasons to being the body of a single dog with cancer that the whole dog has to die because you cant separate the cancer from the dog as an analogy that all dog owners have to be eliminated to get rid of the cancer is just as ingenuious as you accuse me of in comparing the problem with a war. This is a war, ask any AR campaigner, they think this war is in its final stages, is almost won.

So are you saying that the short sharp version closed the organisations down completely or they went OS, or was it that the participants just had to change their culture, no compromises, so the industry could survive? The latter m-j usually - it usually involves rapid down-sizing and sophisticated management of change and people - and that so ain't going to happen here. Management by attrition usually takes a long time, and while it works in some situations I doubt it will work here given the public and political pressure. So yes - I have seen absolutely nothing here to suggest that genuine sustainainble change will happen so this industry will survive in a form that is acceptable to the general public. In fact this decision has probably ensured the slow 'death by a thousand cuts' for this industry, unless it happens again. And yes I'm certain it will all happen again and next time it will be a brutal shutdown. Look the truth is that the days of using animals for gambling and entertainment are severely numbered - its only a matter of time given its a toxic mix that brings out the worst in human beings. So this industry can evolve to shutdown under its own control or have it done to it eventually. They can take their pick which route they take - but they are going to end up in the same place. Bookmark it. Thank you for your reply. As I have said before you are probably right except it will be a pity for the good folk in the industry and they do exist and they have complained but it has fallen on deaf ears. The entertainment and gambling factor of the industry are not to blame for this it is the "win at all cost" mentality. Unfortunately it isn't only in the greyhounds it is across the board in all sports, it is why human athletes get drug tested and are being found positive. Gone are the days when sport was just that sport, now it is business, pity. One example of this is country football/cricket they are paying players from other places to play for them so now the kids that don't make the grade instead of being at the footy or the cricket on Saturday they are entertaining themselves in other ways and not all of them are wholesome. Generally m-j I think we are in agreement - I just don't believe so much in 'the good people' - not one public whistle blower I'm aware of in all the years of greyhound racing? But anyway, yes it is a pity that what might have been a good clean fun hobby has now become 'business' - and when it involves animals you can absolutely bet that greed will overrule any sense of animal welfare and decrease our collective humanity. I think this is why I'm so angry with this industry - as it not only reflects on them, it reflects on all of us. And I wonder if the huge outcry over greyhounds is because they are closer to us than, say horses. The are a companion animal species who live in our homes - and while some people have horses as well most of us don't. So it hits hard. And yes absolutely agree - the moment sport becomes 'business' it moves to a different plane. I'm a great AFL supporter - and sooooo angry with Essendon for the disrepute that they have brought to the game through their 'whatever it takes' 'supplements' program. They are a case study for everything m_j talks about. I've seriously considered going back to supporting grass roots footie through the SANFL - and I might still. And no I won't be watching or betting on 'the race that stops the nation' either. They are out there :) the vet that went onto the ABC show (there is a link at the beginning of this thread) is one example and look what it achieved, nothing. There are many people out there that could tell stories and some have but it got them nowhere. It seems that a certain few of the industry appear to have it sown up so this is why I was hoping legislation would sort it out. I'm not going to hold my breath though the GBOTA put reforms on the table I'm guessing to enhance their chance of keeping the industry and some of those reforms got taken off 3-4 days after the ban was lifted, which really peeved me, same ..... different day. I just hope when the next push to close it comes there will be more thought put into what is going to happen to the dogs. Can you honestly say you were surprised by this? I don't want to see the breed disappear through the complete banning of racing but it seems like the arrogance of those involved is just.. incredible. As soon as they believed they had won, it was back to business as usual. Apparently they'd already reformed enough and everything is fine. A greyhound trainer in Sydney was charged with live baiting the day before the ban was lifted but that's okay because reform, reviews, some paid "research", a liberal application of smoke and mirrors and.. everything is fine. The public can stop looking now, back to business. The arrogance of some is incredible. the question is, do you destroy all? including the 80% the report said are the honest, the caring in the quest to destroy the arrogant? In war it is called "collateral damage" there are a few million survivors of that fleeing that horror and the loss of their homes and way of life, according to the news, many are drowning in the attempt. those to have tried it to get to australia are locked up for longer sentences than pedophiles, rapists and murderers. now add those who have pets for whatever purpose to eliminate the arrogant

camphor apparently smells horrible to cats, someone was asking on the radio this afternoon.

Catching up with this thread and noticed these views. Yes we are some disillusioned - feel like dropping the AFL interest I have had, and only following the new womens' AFL teams, see if they have a different ethic. And no, I didn't turn on the TV on Cup Day or watch the news on Tuesday night. And the nastiness in cricket - I just can't handle what used to be my favourite spectator sport - used to be so quietly theatrical and is now borderline unpleasant. All for the reasons you have mentioned. And if the new Victorian laws being pushed get through everyone with just one fertile female dog will be what? A registered "business" and we all know now that when animals become a "business" as said above ".... the moment sport becomes 'business' it moves to a different plane." Which is exactly what AR want to happen. then everyone caught up will forfeit their right to freedom of choice even to keeping their retired oldies, and who is the most dispised? those puppyfarmers who get rid of their retired dogs, as well no longer entitled to be innocent until proven guilty. How many have forgotten already 80% of greyhound owners were not believed to be doing the wrong thing, yet to stop the 20% who where doing the wrong thing the other 80% were considered acceptable collateral damage. all with a fertile female will become disreputable and therefore the enemy to be eliminated, same game, same pack drill. neat re-branding isn't it? No wonder they have no respect for the dog owners, sheep would be harder to set up for the slaughter, at least they run when they sense danger, even as they are being torn to shreds as they run. Have to admire the slight of hand. shows who is the smart player in this game. Pet owners need to start getting a lot smarter a LOT FASTER to have any possible hope to get off the back foot before its too late, well if it isnt already too late, in this mind game

interesting, there are hundreds of fb groups that sell puppies i am told, I have certainly seen over a dozen selling various breeds myself if all the posts are indicative they sell like hot cakes. Not just dogs, fish, birds u name it as for horses, heaps are being bought and sold on facebook as well

Exactly, demanding the elimination of "puppy farmers" and too dumb to realise they will be caught up in the same net they backed being cast

copied from a facebook page. FEEL FREE TO SHARE - How do you feel about this part of the Bill??...Breeders who are DABs automatically fall under the mandatory Code of Practice for the Operation of Breeding and Rearing Businesses (2014) the last point of this code is: •Recommends that dogs which are no longer in breeding programs are either re-homed or, if not suitable for rehoming, euthanized. It sickens me to think that this is a recommendation I will be expected to follow - that one of my dogs- a dog I have shared my life with, a dog that I will hold until her final breath - I am expected to rehome or euthanise when I can no longer breed from her. - well Arya, how do I explain this to you when I retire you from my breeding program? - my final word to these fools- no one could ever love her like I do - a point you obviously fail to understand......animal welfare anyone #amendthebill D..... Breeders don't fall to the low depths of RSPCA and PETA, {that have obviously had a big hand in writing the stupid bill) and kill our animals that have been loyal to us after they have stopped breeding. A ... exactly and that along with the concrete yards and facilities they say we must have and must do constitute what? A PUPPY FARMER. when all this began to be pushed for in the 1990's I was inspected by a CC delegate on the grounds that as I did not show my dogs I must be a puppy farmer and membership cancelled. I remember the inspectors first words as he spotted my greybeards with the run of the place. "well, they wouldnt be here if you were a puppy farmer." then as he inspected my breeding dogs remarked, "why aren't you showing these? most of them are Champion quality". Even then I wasnt allowed to to do my own thing with my dogs, I was expected to follow the drum of the ribbon chasers or subject to suspicion. Now even the ribbon chasers if they have to follow these heartless rules will qualify as puppy farmers anyway. If you breed your dog's now, if this becomes law, you are not allowed to keep your retiree's..........disgusting think this below might be on the mark after all

TRAGIC. all the laws being formulated to control who breeds a dog and still people do not exercise control of the dog or dogs they have, its simply unbelieviable this could be not only allowed to happen but the owner does not stop them? leave it to stangers?

For those who like to think this sort of legislation is driven by A.R- Is this an A.R response? I don't think many here would claim it is. I think most here would agree its a response typicaly encouraged by the C.Cs in general, and its what is driving this sort of legislation. Well intentioned people who believe Pedigree Dogs are the responsible choice above all else, and are either uninformed or have limited experience in the diverse practices aimed at breeding and raising happy, healthy puppies to supply their pets. People who who want to be sure the dogs they buy are being bred responsibly, and are very well informed about failures attributed to certain environments, rather than the successes of individuals, and what makes them successful. So whats wrong with the arguments used here FOR the legislation? I am in no way defending Banksia Park here, because a) I don't know enough about them. and b) Any mass production of puppies could not supply the type of dog I am after unless its a pure accident. But thats me, my experience, and my choice as a person who IS familiar with some of the intricacies of breeding Dogs. More would likely find the same, If they were also more informed and familiar. So there would not BE the support of buyers who keep this commercial industry viable. On the other hand, If Banksia Park can meet all reasonable standards set for breeding dogs and meeting welfare and socialization needs, and have a customer support base thrilled with their dogs, on what grounds do we decide they are unacceptable? When breeders of pedigree dogs larger scale or smaller will still be failing on those same grounds? The other arguments, that they are producing "Designer Dogs, Mutts for 10X the price" . Should a persons choice of dog the be limited? If so, on what grounds? Pedigree? Health? Prey drive? profits? ( largely driven by demand, don't forget) And who gets to decide? Shouldn't we be encouraging people to be responsible for their own choices?! To understand how breeding choice, raising and training all affect the choices they make ? I Believe its been established there are NOT too many puppies being produced, just too many irresponsible owners making poor choices and not filling their own responsibilities, so too many failures and dogs ending up unclaimed or unwanted in the pound system. Pet shops should only sell rescue puppies and dogs. A good breeder wouldn't want to waste the 1st few essential weeks of socialization opportunities of their puppies in a shop window. But its O.K for rescue puppies? Or adults? Maybe because they are mostly 'Mutts' anyway? Don't ALL dogs deserves the same standards of care and welfare? Where in all of this is a promotion of the practices that DO contribute to better choices in dog ownership and breeding? I have been in a pet shop where the owner took puppies from registered and non registered breeders alike. By prior arrangement to ensure facilities would be available. They were penned in a 10 foot enclosure in the center of a large premises with enrichment toys and shelter from prying hands, food and water,clean fresh bedding. Brought in each morning by their breeders and returned home each after noon. Not some thing I would want for my own pups ( because I wouldn't be able to supervise interactions myself, and for hygene/quaranteen reasons) but it looked to me like a great socialization opportunity. Trips to and from in the car, lots of interaction with all sorts of people and visiting dogs from behind a screen. People either take responsibility to do some thing well, or they don't. Either buyers take responsibility for their own choices in buying and raising their dog, or they don't. How many do or don't as a community, will depend largely on the information available and promoted to assist in those choices, and a persons ability to recognize their own personal responsibilities to them. But it helps if the information is all around them, not preserved in a single standard for dog breeders and owners. Because there can never be a single standard that meets all needs. Only one that must keep defining what those must be, in attempting to meet all needs. Unless this realy IS about pedigrees, vs any thing 'Less'. because if it is, its only going to cause the elimination of dogs in our lives unless there is RECOGNITION by the K.Cs that 'Dogs' are a species, not just a standard. The dogs we can appreciate and value for their place in our lives will governed by our responsibility to the species, not responsibility to a standard. spot on. you raised so many valid points there. yes its a bit odd its bad to buy a breeders puppy from a pet shop but fine if its a rescue in the window? if its bad for one then its bad for both. but what is the truth? especially the pet shop scenario, the old pet shops like the one you described are wonderful socalising opportunities. 30 years ago there was a pet shop in kingswood near penrith like you describe, except the puppies were kept a pen seperate for each litter and that is exactly what was done, the breeder would bring them in the morning and take them home that aftrnoon, the staff would spoil them rotten and the puppies had a wonderful day interecting with new people every day. many of the people who brought their puppies in like that worked so could advertise them, and refer the caller to go see them at the shop. the shop took a percentage of the sale price . They did it for all breeds, pure and cross. again so right about the ankc's and their members, in the rush to eliminate anyone they do not see as being as themselves they will destroy themselves as well, but sadly so few can seem to grasp the fact, or that the ankc's came second to the people who created and maintained the breeds for hundreds of years and decades before the ankcs try to gather and claim themselves the sole representatives of good dogs. They are everywhere with or without a piece of paper to prove it. always have been, all we can pray for is this mess is resolved before all are destroyed by this shortsightedness. how many remember the fact the pedigree stumpy tailed cattledog was bred into a genetic dead end when only one registered breeder was left and made sure it stayed that way by refusing to sell any on main register? it was the massive gene pool of much loved and preserved families out there in backyard land that supplied the appendix register to include in the ankc seach for new blood. ANKC'S ARE NOT THE BE ALL for good dogs, surely that example alone should make them do a serious rethink?

"Realistically the only people that will adhere to these laws are good honest breeders. As if accidental litters and BYBs are going to get a DAB license. I've seen pups on gumtree who aren't even microchipped yet at 6mths! People like that aren't going to care. And not one seems to understand the ones referred to in the red are NOT puppy farmers and they will still EXIST and churning them out in the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands but they are invisable and will always remain so. yet they are where the dogs and most of the breeds will survive after everyone else has been eliminated. But no one seems to get that yet. bleat about puppy farms until your lost your voice,,,,,,,,,, the great unknowns are the real source of the huge numbers except they are tens of thousands, nay hundreds of thousands of small and ultra small eg only have one female, producers and impossible to trace, they arent chipped, let alone vaccinated, that is only the ones whose owners care enough to take it to the vet when it becomes ill. many in that culture simply do nothing and get another replacement. It would be impossible to guesstamate how many die quiently in the yard and never taken to a vet, so no vet records will reveal they exist let alone who owns them. many only produce one or two litters and lose interest or the dog. but it is the sheer numbers of them that is a fact and that won't come to light until all the traceables have been eliminated. north east of me is what the vets here call the greatest concentration of unvaccinated, unregistered dogs in the sydney basin. when the wind blows from that quarter of this basin they begin to see the arrival of dozens of dogs and puppies, (that figure was daily for some vets) infected with parvo virtually none of them microchippped. Drive through the suburbs and there is just about a dog in every yard, multiple in many, go to the local supermarkets and there are cards printed A4 sheets with puppies for sale by the dozen in some weeks. These are the places the vast majority of pound inductees come from, even the figures show it, the majority of arrivals ARE NOT MICRO-CHIPPED...... puppy farms microchip, they have too, registered breeders, MICROCHIP, GUESS WHAT? They have to. but in the meantime oscars law and ar don't care about the unfindables, get rid of those whose noses are traceable first, then they will or wont try to do anything about the invisible's.

Westimum, you never want to learn first hand what I know. Most I know who learn that way are being treated for PTSD as a result. The reason so many are advocating for and calling for an ombudsman to be appointed for the only untouchable organisation in this country, the calls began in the 1990's as what you refer too began to morph but so far the govt is deaf as a doornail

This was forwarded to me by my son. Shooters, Fishers and Farmers MLC Robert Brown called on an inquiry into the RSPCA during an adjournment speech in the NSW Parliament on Tuesday evening. "This follows a litany of debacles where the organisation has over-reached in its role, and is in the precarious position as an unsupervised judge, jury and executioner for animal cruelty issues. These matters have been examined in Western Australia and Victoria, and should be examined by an inquiry in this jurisdiction." "[People would] be shocked to hear of a $100m industry that slaughtered 40,206 innocent animals in the period 2014 to 2015 - 30 per cent of animals under their care," he said. "The 40,000 animals slaughtered by the RSPCA last year surprises me, especially because a figure of a similar magnitude was cited as the rationale for banning greyhound racing. The cynic in me wonders why they have not released their latest year's statistics, given this debate. "Once a respected charity, it has now become over-zealous, drunk on power, and dominated by animal liberationists. Mr Brown cited the case of Pilliga grazier Ruth Downey whose breeding cattle were shot by the RSPCA following disputable claims they were emaciated. He highlighted quotes of an RSPCA inspector uncovered by his office showing that the organisation preferred to euthanise this woman's cattle rather than provide material support with feeding because the organisation was low on funds. "An organisation... cannot be summarily allowed to execute animals because it is in that organisation's financial interests, rather than providing the support the public demands and deserves. Nationally they reported a $9.34m loss in their latest financial statement. This is despite their charity status and the tax concessions that come with it." "[The RSPCA] can either be a policing body for animal welfare or a campaign-house: but it cannot be both," Mr Brown said. "Like Western Australia and Victoria, we urgently need an inquiry into the RSPCA in New South Wales." Mr Brown added that the issue of the RSPCA's role in animal welfare was of significance because of their role in deciding the future regulation of the greyhound racing industry after the ban was repealed. "The fact that [the RSPCA] is actively campaigning against the continuation of the greyhound racing industry, but is granted a seat at the table by Premier Mike Baird to examine it's future regulation is ludicrous and is fraught with danger. "Such an appointment surely raises community suspicions that the Baird Government's reversal of the greyhound racing ban may turn out to be a disingenuous exercise - killing the industry slowly by other means." Being the curious kind I found the Hansard copy, think it reads better than the press release actually. https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Hansard/Pages/HansardResult.aspx#/docid/HANSARD-1820781676-71409

I know a chap who once he decides on the price he wants for a horse he has decided to sell, if intending buyers try to haggle with him and he gets angry at the amount offered if they push him too far, will come out with the rifle and give them a decision to make. do they want it at the price he is asking or not? If they do not leave but continue to argue he has turned to the horse and shot it then and there. Far as I know he has only done it when the haggler is a man. but one day he had 7 that he decided to cull as it was a bad drought, trouble was he had them tied near the road where the school kids were waiting for the bus. so they saw him shoot all 7. one girl was hysterical and ran hom and her parents called the rspca to be told as long as he shot them on his property he is perfectly within his legal rights to do so. Yet look at the headlines of the dog breeders be it pet breeds or greyhounds, shock horror, bodies found shot in the head on breeders property. yet it was fine to shoot the horses? in the video I posted and the photos of Inspector Ashton "euthanising" cattle. they were shot as they were chased through gates, not done with a captive bolt, or a clean shot to the centre of the skull but shot as they ran past and its called "euthanasia"? No abbotior is allowed to slaughter stock that way. let alone call it euthanasia

We need more people like this brilliant letter https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5563c0f3e4b086159c461796/t/580e0125d2b857e4d23c350c/1477312811518/Letter+from+Gordon+Curtis+concerning+the+proposed+Vic+dog+laws..pdf It is a proven fact that people with pets, live longer healthier lives, mentally and psychically due to the interaction with their pets. For this reason Pets as therapy came into being, and Therapy dogs are now recognised. The animal rights movement is hell bent , along the those who have infiltrated u know who, that along with the other AR groups are formulating these appalling laws with no regard to the reality of what will happen as a result We need to formulate how important the companion animals are to the mental health of the people of australia. Pets are just as important to the health and well being of the population as working dogs are to the farms of australia my friends son has anglemans and with out the dog I bred and gave him he can become unmanagable, Lighting can calm him down in seconds. Without his dog his quality of life is severely comprimised. It is now being recognised how important such companionship is for people with a varity of problems, PTSD is another I know of, horses as well as dogs can be wonderful in helping these people, a friend whose husband suffers badly and who is not in a situation where they can keep a pet comes to my place and spends hours with my dogs and horses, he can be at peace for up to 3 days after. She is blown away by how fast they help him relax. he can arrive so stressed he cant even stand still. to almost asleep with his head on Tilly's neck.

I really don't know. I am keenly aware that the people that talk to me are the people that are genuinely interested in doing better by their dogs, and most of them were already working towards change, and I have had some good times with them and their dogs. Their passion for change is obvious. It's impossible to see beyond those positive experiences to parts of the industry that I don't see and people I don't talk to. I hope, for all the happy people and dogs I have met in the industry. It is a little bit complicated. Dogs that are not racing are supported at least in part by dogs that are racing. On the outset, it looks like, well, we know most of them don't live past 2 anyway, so if they die at 9 months old instead of 2, what's the difference? At least the cycle has come to an end. And in some cases, particularly large, professional enterprises, that is probably true. In other cases, maybe not. Hobbyists are more likely to be holding onto dogs that are not racing, and there are no figures for how many of them have non-racers still in their kennels, and if so, how many. It could include retired racers, injured dogs, young dogs, dogs on suspension, and failed racers, and it could be a temporary or indefinite arrangement. These dogs are pretty much invisible, so maybe there's just 4 in the entire state, or maybe there's 400. Maybe some of them would have been there all their lives, or may have been sold, or eventually adopted out, or euthanised... Whatever the case, if racing were suddenly ended, people may find that they can't support their non-racers anymore, and I expect some of them keep them because they sank a lot of time into them and grew attached and could afford to keep them. So, maybe it's not just the dogs that would have died anyway. It's dogs on top of that as well. I find myself at odds with a lot of colleagues I respect who are angry the ban has been repealed. I don't know if my concerns are coloured by my positive experiences in the industry, or biased by the types of people that like to talk to dog behaviour scientists, and if it matters. There were a lot of people in rescue delighted to see it coming to an end, while at the same time in denial about the sheer number of adoptable dogs that were probably not going to make it purely because there were going to be too many of them. I can't help feeling that everyone grabbed at the first deal offered and just talked themselves into it being the best for the dogs. There has to be better ways, though. I'm not sure if no ban, or a trial period is better in the long-term, but it is in the short-term IMO. I sincerely hope if they ever do decide to ban it after all, they will put a lot more thought into how they will do it. I see your point. Though while I'm happy to be corrected, you seem to be saying regardless of what happens dogs will die. So maybe the original ban with a lead in time was probably best for the industry dogs. Next time you can almost guarantee that the public outrage will be such that there will be a brutal fast shutdown - and while I hate to see dogs die, at least as you say the cycle stops - for good. And those so called 'good people' who turned a blind eye to such abject cruelty and misery will hopefully rehome their 'family' dogs - but somehow I doubt it. If they could turn a blind eye to such cruelty and misery then death of their dogs in response to a ban probably won't mean much either. And yes I hope I'm wrong. But years of watching and managing human behaviour suggests otherwise. I hear this argument ad finitum from the horse rescues who want knackeries closed down and breeders restricted so there is no more horses ending up as dog food. The nutters got their way and had them all shut down in America, thats an awful huge country with no meat disposal industry for the aged, injoured or unsound in limb or mind and theres an awful lot to deal with. So what became the solution? Road trains of double decker semi's snaking these excess horses thousands of Km to either Canada or Mexico. result, the occasional gory headlines when one overturns. what they cannot seem to get into their heads is that EVERY animal, human as well for that matter, IS GOING TO DIE. some sooner, some later, some MUCH later. when an animal as massive as a horse reaches its end of days, that is some 400 to 800 to in some cases 1,000 kg of carcase to be disposed of. many need to be put down due to injoury before old age catches up with them but even the likes of Black Caviar will some day will find her owners deciding, do they have the land to have her buried, or an incinerator they can have the body disposed of, or take it to a knackery and all that meat that would otherwise go to waste become dog food. I know the tree huggers would have it that no animal crosses the rainbow bridge let alone becomes a body for consumption. but dogs ARE carnivores, no dog will be as healthy or long lived kept solely on a no meat diet. so you see you need to also remember every dog too, will one day die despite your best efforts to maintain its life. The only way the cycle will stop is when the AR nutters get their way and there are not any left, be careful what you wish for?