asal

exactly and it aint going to get any better. the only people who are not tarred and feathered by someone have been either extremely lucky or no ones decided they dont like em yet. as for the cc's doing the "accredition" thing. i rang and asked why is this being done. to be told after the "pedigree dogs exposed" fallout and this being done in the uk and recommendations that an accreditation schem be implemented that the canine councils "have to be seen to be doing something" or if they do not show they are making an effort then the rspca and governement will legislate and take all rights away from the canine councils or words to that effect. bit like showing the horse the whip n if it doesnt move then it gets it, doesnt it? so now we have two classes of membership. member and probably puppy farmer,, or toe the line and get "accredited" more income at lease and they seem to need it considering all the money being wasted in the past and now this double posting over the couchman issue .. again wasted money to my mind. soo the guy is now to be persecuted because he supplies catalogues for dog shows? n either did it out of the goodness of his heart and absorbed all costs or is a crim? get real well from the letter i read in the last mail said out and paid for by the dogs nsw, more money wasted to my mind anyway. hes now no longer going to serve on the show council... so who loses out. not him more time for his own use instead of helping the dog world. so who really loses out folks? n yet the directors of the rscpa are solicitors that are raking in hundreds of thousands per year in legal fees closer to one million, nearly 300,000 alone in the ruth downey case. n someone is taking this guy to task for the costs of paper and printing??????? yep, anyone with a dog that becomes a member of a canine body, u dont have to be mad but sure has to help.

Sure but what have they done wrong exactly? The OP hasnt even been on the property - she's only driven by it. think about it. the mentality is if you breed to sell not keep you are a puppy farmer. puppy farmers are trash, puppy farmers must be stopped. ive heard it for 30 years. the minset has been acomplished she is doing what was going to be achieved. so dont be suprised surely? unless you keep your pups your a sitting duck for this thinking now

what is really concerning me is this 6 years before an accurate diagnosis? there can be an awful lot of puppies born of later posative parents? wonder if they are taking dna profiles to compare to mri's to see if there are any patterns to show any common matches anywhere?

I saw this stuff being discussed on a snake forum and they were laughing their heads off, said the guy will sell em as mice, rat, cane toad, snake , flying fox u name it, repeller. if youve got the money and want something repelled he will sell u one was what they were saying. well they did say more not not what id repeat here.

our family have actively been involved in assisting researchers in many fields knowing the value to the wider community so i am in favour of discovering tests but so many do not seem to understand the ones markers have been found for are just the tip of a gainormous iceberg. there is soooo much more waiting to be discovered it will petrify most as for the ongoing work on HD the results there are far from encouraging, i have friends who had spend thousands if not tens of thousands in ensuring using only the best of the best and its still turning up affected puppies... its no way as clear a path to its reduction let alone erradication as was first thought sadly

n even weirder, my boy who had two chances of being a carrier if not scids himself n peg at birth had sired some 27 foals from the same n related mares n never produced one in his lifetime. ditto for the sids carrier son. life truely is a lottery, they are long dead so i will never know if they did carry it. someone in queensland knows. because i sent samples from every one i own at my own cost to help the research being done into finding a dna marker. they found it, they know the results for every one of my horses yet chose not only not to let me know. but what really disgusted me, the technology was sold to an american company that charges and arm and a leg for the test. and even had the patent extented so they can still keep the monopoly for a test discovered in australia yet the profits go overseas, really makes u wonder why ?

and sadder for those who have ones from what they were told were free lines are discovering all these decades later. that aint necessarily so. these people didnt get their horses scids tested, why should they. clear lines. one lady was completely unaware that her mare was a full sister to a stallion that sired 16 scids foals in just one foal drop. amazing how few people knew it. was prattling on how that sire closed an entire stud that year, the principles were so devestated they gave up and sold em all. never realised how few people knew why? in my case i happened to have been there two weeks running. first visit. paddocks full of happy foals, second week not one on the place they had all been found to be homozygus and were put down. the odds against that happening would have to have been enormous considering the chances of any carrier to carrier is 25% homozygus then multiply that by 16 and you had more odds of winning lotto wouldnt u?

been through it with SCIDS. my first two stallions one was from a known SCIDS mare the other his dad was a known SCIDS carrier as was his dams sire. soo talk about automatically tarred an feathered. while others with unknown status families preeened themselves and told all and sundry, "our lines are clear" and the known families were decimated to the point of extinction. yet for some curious reason carrier status somehow seemed linked to something that people were selecting for? it was never figured out what? the the number of colts selected to be sires that turned out to be carriers was way way higher than the population average. quite strange. n in its case long as u never put carrier to carrier it could never surface anyway. n talk about self limiting. a scids didnt make it past 16 weeks so no such thing as an homozygus scids. although in humans they discovered bone marrow transplants could give them a normal life. not discovered before the famous boy in the plastic bubble died unfortunately.

Ah, the 'I've never had it' excuse. You know, I was told that no wheaten terrier in Australia had ever been diagnosed with the protein wasting disease they can get. And this was right - until one was diagnosed. Just because you've never had it, doesn't mean you won't ever have a case in the future. Just because you don't know anyone whose had a case, doesn't mean you won't in the future. Only the blind dismiss the research. Unfortunately, Sheridan, there is no way to predict whether you will get it in your lines or not either. There are now some recommendations about how to breed, but they are recommendations only, and even doing as the recommendations say do not guarantee success. Asals pups were fine at a time when there was no test, and hardly anyone knew what SM was. I am in exactly the same position. My dogs are now 5 generations with no SM - but that doesn't mean I couldn't have a pup with SM. I've actually never seen SM - and I have no reason to lie --- I don't have any pups to sell the whole sceneario is just getting too much and too scary really. things are being discovered. and if it is found in your dogs, your automaticaly "unethical"? as if you would deliberately select for something like that, its insane. I remember the nightmare that ensued when SCID was discovered in arabian horses, hundreds , semi loads went to the doggers their only crime they had relations that had proven to be carriers. n that ones a simple recessive that cannot express without two copies. n there is a test for it now. still getting over the embarrassment of producing a pup whose adult teeth didnt come through straight.. how many of us have had that happen to our until then stunning show prospect.. once upon a time it was bad luck. now if you were mug enough to have sold it. rather than kept it and your next champ becomes a pet. when someone else owns it, your unethical... since when were we guaranteeing the placement of a puppys adult teeth?? especially since they were perfect puppy teeth? its a known fact that mouths change as a puppy grows an now we are supposed to be able for foretell the future? the flack from that was pretty upsetting from the ringside brigade telling the owner i ripped her off, gee the dog and his brother were assessed by qualified judges and she made her choices from their recommendations not mine. still smarting over having to refund for a dog i give her for free? it wasnt my fault the first she did buy became ill after being vaccinated and flea treated. mind u the vet dosed him with a treatment at the rate for a ten kg dog and he weighed one kilo? nnnnnnnnnnn im unethical? what about the vet? dont they take any responsibility for overdosing their patients? the second vet who saved him, kept her pup as the bills went into the thousands, so i gave her the brother as i felt so bad for her. n still get branded unethical? somehow i bet the first bro has perfect teeth, he now belongs to the vets dad. rant over

No. I live on a farm, my dog is not from a registered breeder as with most border collies who live the farm life! She's beaut at rounding up sheep, but I don't think she'd be interested in the show ring! From a working perspective. Most farmers don't like the light coloured dogs as they don't believe the sheep have as much respect for them so if you are breeding just for work I would be breeding away from the red, especially a pale red. I know they can still work but mostly white and pale colours are not prefered from a work point of view. With unregistered dogs you could have any colours lurking so apart from what I wrote earlier about percentages, anything is possible. If you are breeding Border Collies, registered or not, keep in mind that your girl and her mate should at the very least be DNA tested for the two hereditary fatal conditions, CL and TNS to avoid possible legal problems later. It is law in Vic but no matter what state, if you breed an affected dog, now testing is available to prevent it, you could be sued. The testing is available at Uni of NSW. At least one parent must be DNA normal for each condition to avoid breeding puppies that could die between 2-8 months for TNS and 18-24 months for CL. The only cases that now occur in Australia are from unregistered Borders because the breeders don't bother to test like the registered ones do. The genes for both CL and TNS are throughout the breed and it doesn't matter if they are show or work lines, the risk is the same if you don't test to make sure you are not putting two carriers together. how curious. colour wise i mean, at a sheep dog trial the winner was a almost pure white border bit of a wonder the sheep could see him let alone let him work them then?

are u serious? so what about the breeders who put black to black and get??????????? red, gold. blue or chocolate? same diff are u suggesting no breedings should take place without the breeder dna testing for every possible colour? since when was colour a defect in this breed now? once upon a time nothing but a black or black and white pup got to live long enough to open its eyes. even if the male carries red. every pup could be black. just as every pup could be all males or all females are u suggesting if you dont know the sexes dont do it either? every mating IS, I REPEAT IS A GAMBLE. NO matter how much you think you know. but hey ive been breeding, pedigree mice, cavies, horses and dogs for only 50 years or so i know nothing, compared to so many here. from my experience ok not much, the longer your at it the more you learn, n when u stop learning ....your dead.

There are a few sites like that - try control/alt/delete to close your computer. Don't know any other way to get rid of it. :D interesting, yes had to shut down the computer to get rid of it.

Ah, the 'I've never had it' excuse. You know, I was told that no wheaten terrier in Australia had ever been diagnosed with the protein wasting disease they can get. And this was right - until one was diagnosed. Just because you've never had it, doesn't mean you won't ever have a case in the future. Just because you don't know anyone whose had a case, doesn't mean you won't in the future. Only the blind dismiss the research. i didnt mean the literal as you seem to think i did. according to the poster i was commenting on the charge was that all the breed have it. even more disturbing was the literature i discovered naming so many other breeds as well not mentioned anywhere previously, well not that i noticed. very worrying i would think

being the nosey type i googled to see what places have mri scanners n came up with this page http://www.vetinfo.com/dmri.html it says click here and u can ask a vet. just rechecked the ask a question page that comes up if u click, theres nothing to warn u if u do its a 22 charge. dont do it. well unless u want to spend $22 dollars. and once u click on the ask a question after typing in the question your locked into the page to pay. i cant X it. every time i try to go back or delete the page a box comes up with "Are you sure you want to navigate away from this page? WAIT! Dog Veterinary Experts are online and are waiting to answer your question! Please let us know what you are willing to pay the Expert IF you are satisfied with the answer. Remember, satisfaction is fully guaranteed and your money remains in your account until you decide that the answer works for you! Thank you JustAnswer Press OK to continue, or Cancel to stay on the current page." u either pay up or your stuck "on the current page." sheesh. i could ring em n ask that without having to pay 22 for the answer? well now i have their phone number. I asked how much is an mri, and im stuck with the page on my computer now, it wont close.

I was wondering, would one way to help bring costs down could the mri table be set up so more than one dog could be scanned at each run? I have never seen a dog done but i know when i was in an accident and a mri done. i was put on a table and it rolled through the machine considering the size of the table, u could do an awful lot of dogs in one run if they were all asleep?

Yes, but the Article by the Researchers also said that Almost all the Affected Dogs have been Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. Bet Hargreaves what you refer to quotes one study only at the beginning of the paper, using cavalier king charles figures only, read the entire thing and there is also this on page 891 to 892. "The mean age of dogs in our caudal occipital malformation syndrome group was 6.26 years of age (range: 4.5 months to 13 years of age). There were 17 males (two intact) and 13 females (two intact). All were small-breed dogs, with Yorkshire terriers (seven) and miniature or toy poodles (six) being the most common. Other breeds included bichon frise (two), pug (two), Chihuahua (two), West Highland white terrier (two), cavalier King Charles spaniel (two), shih tzu (two), Maltese (one), miniaturepinscher (one), Pomeranian (one), Pekingese (one), and French bulldog (one). One of the cavalier King Charles spaniels was known to have been acquired from Ireland. As with human Chiari type 1 malformation, there was a wide variety of neurologic presentations in the dogs (Table 2)." that finding by no mind streatch can u come up with "Almost all the Affected Dogs have been Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. " from that second study group surely? and surely cause for concern if you want to stick to cavalier king charles bashing then perhaps you need to stop reports being presented that dont give only the information you belive should be available for public consumption?

Hey i found this link https://secure.vlsstore.com/Media/Publicati...V_26_11_886.pdf good grief n look at the list of breeds its been found in? people too

CW its actually against CC rules to show a dog with an illness. The dog really shouldn't have been on the grounds. sorry missed noticing, the owner is a worry

in all this the talk is about the dog "biting" the judge. ok i dont show. well havent for decades but i thought you cannot show a sick dog? is that not just as much an issue if not more so? biting, mouthing call it what u like its not contagous the runs certainly can be, its still one of the symptons of parvo and corona? and look at the heartbreak that introduced to grounds has caused. was watching a episide of james herriot and in it he disqualified a dog with what? the runs.. it couldnt be exhibited in those days surely its the same now isnt it? if it isnt it SURELY SHOULD BE.

yes your boy is defiately a chocolate and tan. i had a red kelpie and there is no comparison between red and chocolate. if you put red, the majority of people who assesed him if he ended up in a pound or rescue, would tell you.. no reds here.

And they leave the show fancy wide open to claims of animal abuse - which IMO some of their behaviour IS. worse than that too. how many remember all the dogs that died after being shown at a particular venue? think it was about 4 years ago now? not sure have to admit. Nancy gate turned to me and said "this is the last show i will ever go too. your husbands right. Look at that?" i looked where she pointed and there in a pen were three.. or was it four. anyway Pug puppies spewwing bloody diroeea into the grass. Nancy said 'they have parvo, i would bet on it" That show was i think in early october. the next show was the beginning of a number of breeders dogs comming down with parvo after the subsequent shows. I do know one family ws blamed for taking a sick dog but it wasnt the family with the pugs named, i know that for sure. i believe it continued till i was told anyway the grounds were disinfected. although how you disinfect soil i do not have a clue. I wont name names but a number of people i know lost dogs and puppies after subesequent shows. so sad and so unnecessary. my hubby is a fanatic and believes taking your dog to a show is simply taking it to pick up and bring home every pathogen available floating round the grounds back to those at home. soo i am banned from showing for some odd reason.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/bow...ndbowwowsig.jpg i apologise for this being off topic, but cant help asking. what colour do you call your chihuahua? then what would you call it if instead its all red instead of the cream, and yes with a paler red face like yours n still with the black ticking were it is? never seen this colour n the cream face before the red version turned up. n i have to put a colour to register it??? gee what a nightmare of worry for Chase's owners. I'm not veryup with pnemonia. does this mean his chances are much better than the before thoughts.... its whats im thinking and hoping anyway.... such stressful time for all

how many dogs have you seen exhititing any of the signs in your years with the breed? has it been as low as i have seen or am i just fortunate.

had a very intresting conversation with a budgie breeder yesterday. n im talking a guy whos stock was soo good showwise there would be a que for even his seconds he is so against showing now because as he said they cant leave the standard alone. always tweaking a word here, an interpretation there, and its the birds that pay. interesting eh? was explaining the english bred them so big they were almost twice the size of the aussie bird. so the aussies imported some of the big uns and bred up the size of the birds here. problem was apparently there was a disaster hiding in the genes that increased the size and when it came to light there wasnt an unaffected bird to be found. so nest fulls of dying was the result. sounds a bit familar doesnt it as he said the show scene is flawed . the vision is more important than the genetics contained, n thats without the "added confusion caused by face judging " LOL so its not just in the dog scene eh?

I believe that there will be more information available shortly once the full Veterinary Paper is Published.At the moment it is so important to be having Cavalier Breeding Stock MRI Scanned . When the Genes for SM are discovered , then the Carriers will also be found, and hope-fully the Horrible SM Disease will be on the way out and the suffering of our Cavaliers helped Bet Hargreaves frankly i think its a load of bull#*+# my first bitch had 7 in her first litter and 8 in her second. they are 12 and 11 now n not a sm in the lot thats 15 pups if you cant add. n they would have shown by now. counting my own and those belonging to friends probably think ive known nearly 100 cavs over the past decades n never seen it in save one who certantly began to show the symptoms at age 6. n luckily desexed n never bred from, it came from a kennel thats ho so ethical n never sells any on main register so anyone who has one descended from their progeny would have not had their LR pup desexed as per contact anyway. as well seen many others same kennel same breeding and no sign of it as they aged n many have made it to 13 n 16 years old. so i find it hard to believe the figures stated at all. should i add, that affected dog came from a litter of 8 and never heard of any siblings developing any problems?