Whelping My Labrador

[Cordelia]

I know what odema is and he did not say all bitches have a swollen vulva at the end of pregnancy

He should have. ALL female mammals swell (some a little.. dog tend to be a species who swell quite obviously) when they are at the end of their pregnancy..

He said because of this it is easy to mistake dilation when doing an internal

No.. really it isn't. Doing an internal requires going PAST the vulva/labia and feeling the cervix (which is NOT right near the external genitalia) with a finger.... not confusing or easy to mistake oedema for dilation of the cervix. You've obviously misunderstood your vet.

You really underestimate vets , perhaps you dont use them?

I query what some vets say.. but generally, I have a great deal of respect for most vets... it's their clients owners that worry me.. for good reason usually.

I don't need to go to the vet very often.. especially for whelping a litter... unless a bitch ended up requiring a CS (2 in over 20 litters) I have enough knowledge not to have to be going back and forwards to a vet for reassurance or information.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Cordelia

[jamieson]

You haven't been open - you've avoided answering the question until you were pressed to do so. We understand that accidental litters happen but you do need to be up front with the entire situation if you want respect and support on this forum.

Regardless, I don't agree with the overmanagement so far of this litter - you've mentioned dilation 3 times after being to the vet - can I assume that the first was obtained from an ultrasound? She's had at least two and that is invasive physically and psychologically for a dog, particularly considering that she isn't even due for another day as you know by ultrasounds. Unfortunately each time you take her to the vet he is obligated to investigate.

You wanted intelligent input? Well that's my opinion. Six days of unnecessary investigations, 3 vets visits, based on a half degree drop in temperature when you know she's not even due until tomorrow. It hasn't been well managed so far. I hope things go better for you from here.

Ok I seem to have started an uproar! Im sorry but I havent mislead anyone, if I intened to I would not have posted ansers to questions! I thought the furum was for purebred registred dog owners? Black Labrador ;you have a lot if strong opinions and that is fine but you are not correct here.'"overmanagment"" I dont think so. I have read many many posts and registered breeders are cautious and many would agree with my vet. Regardless Pearl is not stressed and if I was unsure about dates is it not better ot safe than sorry. I had advice on this forum that said exactly that! i would never have known when she was due it not for the ultrasounds and they were not invasive as Pearl likes ging to my vet clinic and knows them. Please stop critisizing me and I wont ask yoy to waste your time on this thread.

[jamieson]

Wonderful!

Cheering on a BYB litter of puppies... how ethical.

2 internals have been done on the bitch now.. and not even due.. pointless potential introduction of bacteria.

He is happy with her and apparently her vulva has odema ( sounds painful dosnt it)

Not to those who understand that oedema is simply the medical terminology for swelling (and swelling isn't necessarily painful).

and the other vet may have made a mistake about the dilation due to this.

Umm, how? Unless your vet has as little experience as you seem to with whelping, then I doubt any vet would say this as all bitches have a swollen vulva at the end of pregnancy... just like all female mammals do. A swollen vulva has nothign to do with a dilated cervix. The only way to know if the cervix IS dilated is to do an internal...

I know what odema is and he did not say all bitches have a swollen vulva at the end of pregnancy ( please read the post more carefully)! He said because of this it is easy to mistake dilation when doing an internal ( she has only had 1!) Im not sure where you are coming from now and you are clearly misreading my posts. Im sorry of I have offended you and feel that any more posts will me misread by you also. You really underestimate vets , perhaps you dont use them?

maybe have a read of the forum rules before you post anything that has a personal dig at forum members as it is not allowed.

I have not got personal and wont, however some here have. come on lets not get nasty. I am only concerned about my dog.

[Cordelia]

I thought the furum was for purebred registred dog owners?

Actually, the forum is for anyone who owns a dog regardless of breeding.. BUT.. it is NOT a place to support, encourage or approve of Backyard Breeders... regardless of whether the dogs are pedigreed...

You were dishonest by omission. You still never admitted to NOT being a registered breeder. Only having registered dogs...

[BJean]

You haven't been open - you've avoided answering the question until you were pressed to do so. We understand that accidental litters happen but you do need to be up front with the entire situation if you want respect and support on this forum.

Regardless, I don't agree with the overmanagement so far of this litter - you've mentioned dilation 3 times after being to the vet - can I assume that the first was obtained from an ultrasound? She's had at least two and that is invasive physically and psychologically for a dog, particularly considering that she isn't even due for another day as you know by ultrasounds. Unfortunately each time you take her to the vet he is obligated to investigate.

You wanted intelligent input? Well that's my opinion. Six days of unnecessary investigations, 3 vets visits, based on a half degree drop in temperature when you know she's not even due until tomorrow. It hasn't been well managed so far. I hope things go better for you from here.

I think a good vet would tell a client to stay home, to relax and leave the bitch be.

I've been told that before

If you are anxious about your dog and dont know what is the best thing for them, it is only natural to consult a veterinarian, particularly if you dont have any other knowledge source to call upon. So to an extent "bitch / pregnancy management" is dependent on the skill and experience of the consulting vet.

Ultimately it was the OPs vet's duty to advise the OP to leave the bitch alone until she was in 1st stage or there was an actual problem.

:D

Edited May 3, 2010 by lilli

[jamieson]

As yet I am not registerd as a breeder but my dogs are registered. I did not intend to breed my dogs at this stage, so have not become registered. However I am not a byb in it for profit and have had experince in the past as stated. So no these pups cant be registered but does that make them any differnt??? I will find very responsible homes for them. I think I have been very open here and appreciate what you are saying however I just wanted some sound birthing advice to assist Pearl and add to my prior knowlege. I trust my vet and you dont get better qualified than a good vet with a degree in animal science and experience to match. What else can I say?

Does this mean I cant access this forum? Because that would be a real shame given the wealth of knowlege and genuine care many people show for dogs here. I have enjoyed talking with people and have not quizzed anyone on their credentials!

Just goes to show never assume anything on DOL -

a few pages back on 1 or 2,

I thought shall I ask if the OP is a registered breeder?

but then thought nah

must be

there are all these DOL groupies

probably someone knows the OP and the OP just doesn't know how to post on the breeder's forum ...........

but anyway here we are

and yes Jamieson you are welcome to post

but you will find that unreg breeders are not encouraged

and generally get less groupies

not because they are inherently bad or care for their dogs less

but because there is an unwritten DOL ethos that is about improving the standards of dog breeding and dog ownerhsip.

As an unregisterd breeder, you counter that.

HOWEVER there is no need to go screaming into the night

An unregistered breeder can become a registered breeder

and there are always direct ways of doing thigns

as well as the long wayward way;

Im not against the latter, I seem to be prone to it.

What state are you in?

If you enjoy learning about dog breeding, then I think you will find being a registered breeder

and the knowledge circles this can impart -

to be beneficial and of long standing interest.

Thankyou for that information. I am in NSW. I take your point and understand what you are saying and thankyou for being constructive and positive with me. I am very responsible would like to know more. And you make a good point.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

As yet I am not registerd as a breeder but my dogs are registered. I did not intend to breed my dogs at this stage, so have not become registered. However I am not a byb in it for profit and have had experince in the past as stated. So no these pups cant be registered but does that make them any differnt??? I will find very responsible homes for them. I think I have been very open here and appreciate what you are saying however I just wanted some sound birthing advice to assist Pearl and add to my prior knowlege. I trust my vet and you dont get better qualified than a good vet with a degree in animal science and experience to match. What else can I say?

Does this mean I cant access this forum? Because that would be a real shame given the wealth of knowlege and genuine care many people show for dogs here. I have enjoyed talking with people and have not quizzed anyone on their credentials!

Just goes to show never assume anything on DOL -

a few pages back on 1 or 2,

I thought shall I ask if the OP is a registered breeder?

but then thought nah

must be

there are all these DOL groupies

probably someone knows the OP and the OP just doesn't know how to post on the breeder's forum ...........

but anyway here we are

and yes Jamieson you are welcome to post

but you will find that unreg breeders are not encouraged

and generally get less groupies

not because they are inherently bad or care for their dogs less

but because there is an unwritten DOL ethos that is about improving the standards of dog breeding and dog ownerhsip.

As an unregisterd breeder, you counter that.

HOWEVER there is no need to go screaming into the night

An unregistered breeder can become a registered breeder

and there are always direct ways of doing thigns

as well as the long wayward way;

Im not against the latter, I seem to be prone to it.

What state are you in?

If you enjoy learning about dog breeding, then I think you will find being a registered breeder

and the knowledge circles this can impart -

to be beneficial and of long standing interest.

whilst i agree with this in part lilli, i have asked the OP several questions regarding the health of the sire and bitch and again the OP has omitted to answer. so here we have an unplanned litter with dubious genetics and a potential litter of puppies that will go to owners with no desexing policy....now where in all of that is responsible breeding?

the bitch could have been desexed after the mating, the sire could have been desexed. there are many things that could have been done to ensure this "accident" doesn't happen again but i suspect another accident may happen.

i have also asked what is it about both those dogs that adds to the betterment of the breed, apart from proximity to each other?

ETS whilst the OP does not need to answer those questions, they cannot have it both ways, either start on the path to being a responsible breeder and get support from members of this forum, or dont answer the questions and look like a BYB.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[blacklabrador]

[Please stop critisizing me and I wont ask yoy to waste your time on this thread.

I was giving an opinion which is what you get when you put a thread on a public forum. Not everybody will write posts that you want to hear.

I've given my opinion based on the information that you've given here and that is that you started worrying over this whelping 7 days before the pups were even due. That has resulted in a fair bit of messing about for the dog so far. Even if she likes the vet, she needs to be left to nest in her home environment where she feels safe to have her pups. It's primal instinct - the disturbance has an effect on her so any trips out at this stage should be made only if absolutely necessary.

I hope you can relax and let her get on with her job from now on. Dogs pick up on their pack leader's emotions and it would be difficult for her to feel safe while there is anxiety in you.

[Cordelia]

Whilst we can't assume that the OP had no intention of ever becoming a registered breeder, by some responses, I don't really think it was a serious thought otherwise it may have been mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

I agree that no answer has been given regarding hip and elbow scoring, so I do believe it is safe to assume that THIS hasn't been done.. so yep.. yet another BYB litter of untested Lab babies... like there isn't already thousands born under those circumstances every year.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Whilst we can't assume that the OP had no intention of ever becoming a registered breeder, by some responses, I don't really think it was a serious thought otherwise it may have been mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

I agree that no answer has been given regarding hip and elbow scoring, so I do believe it is safe to assume that THIS hasn't been done.. so yep.. yet another BYB litter of untested Lab babies... like there isn't already thousands born under those circumstances every year.

and another BYB who in all likelyhood will not take a lifetime responsibility for the offspring of their pets. so any problems that the new owners may have with the puppies/dogs and they are more likely than not to wind up in the pound and therby further contributing to the problem.

and to top it off, they are here asking for help to whelp this litter...i find that very hard to stomach.

[jamieson]

Whilst we can't assume that the OP had no intention of ever becoming a registered breeder, by some responses, I don't really think it was a serious thought otherwise it may have been mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

I agree that no answer has been given regarding hip and elbow scoring, so I do believe it is safe to assume that THIS hasn't been done.. so yep.. yet another BYB litter of untested Lab babies... like there isn't already thousands born under those circumstances every year.

and another BYB who in all likelyhood will not take a lifetime responsibility for the offspring of their pets. so any problems that the new owners may have with the puppies/dogs and they are more likely than not to wind up in the pound and therby further contributing to the problem.

and to top it off, they are here asking for help to whelp this litter...i find that very hard to stomach.

Enough ok? You assume a lot and you are not correct. I have obviously offended you, going by your posts and you are going to believe what you will. No matter what I say you are gong to critisize it and you dont have all the facts. I think you would be suirpised at just how responsible I am. There is no need for me to keep answereing your questions to just recieve negative assumptions. Sorry but Ihave tried to be honest and I have read the forum rules and really did not thik I had done anything wrong here. I will let other know the outcome of Pearls birth, but dont think you have much interest in that yourself or you would see that I have done everything to assist and you dont know my dog or her needs as I do. So please dont assume you do. I appreciate you are angry but i think I have been admonished enough for now and have Pearl to think about . I really have had some great input and some genuine carng people postand hope tp be able to let them know the outcome of the birth. I dont need your actual help tp whelp the litter. I have support and am very capable . Howeerv more knowlege is never a bad thing and is it so hard to give? I dont want to waste any more of your timeand I dont need the flack at the moment, as my pet is my priority.

[Cordelia]

You still haven't said if your dog and bitch have been appropriately health tested. You keep avoiding answering that so what else is there to assume except that you haven't done it?

This forum isn't here to encourage BYBing.

Obviously everyone hopes that Pearl is fine and it is also obvious that you don't have all that much knowledge otherwise you would know certain things regarding the physiology of a bitch when she is ready to whelp.

Part of becoming a registered breeder is learning the usual signs and symptoms of an impending birth and having mentors within the Labrador club or others in the breeder section here on DOL where you would be given respect and as much knowledge as anyone is happy to share with another responsible, registered breeder.

Unfortunately, being a BYB automatically means that you aren't being responsible.

[BJean]

As yet I am not registerd as a breeder but my dogs are registered. I did not intend to breed my dogs at this stage, so have not become registered. However I am not a byb in it for profit and have had experince in the past as stated. So no these pups cant be registered but does that make them any differnt??? I will find very responsible homes for them. I think I have been very open here and appreciate what you are saying however I just wanted some sound birthing advice to assist Pearl and add to my prior knowlege. I trust my vet and you dont get better qualified than a good vet with a degree in animal science and experience to match. What else can I say?

Does this mean I cant access this forum? Because that would be a real shame given the wealth of knowlege and genuine care many people show for dogs here. I have enjoyed talking with people and have not quizzed anyone on their credentials!

Just goes to show never assume anything on DOL -

a few pages back on 1 or 2,

I thought shall I ask if the OP is a registered breeder?

but then thought nah

must be

there are all these DOL groupies

probably someone knows the OP and the OP just doesn't know how to post on the breeder's forum ...........

but anyway here we are

and yes Jamieson you are welcome to post

but you will find that unreg breeders are not encouraged

and generally get less groupies

not because they are inherently bad or care for their dogs less

but because there is an unwritten DOL ethos that is about improving the standards of dog breeding and dog ownerhsip.

As an unregisterd breeder, you counter that.

HOWEVER there is no need to go screaming into the night

An unregistered breeder can become a registered breeder

and there are always direct ways of doing thigns

as well as the long wayward way;

Im not against the latter, I seem to be prone to it.

What state are you in?

If you enjoy learning about dog breeding, then I think you will find being a registered breeder

and the knowledge circles this can impart -

to be beneficial and of long standing interest.

whilst i agree with this in part lilli, i have asked the OP several questions regarding the health of the sire and bitch and again the OP has omitted to answer. so here we have an unplanned litter with dubious genetics and a potential litter of puppies that will go to owners with no desexing policy....now where in all of that is responsible breeding?

the bitch could have been desexed after the mating, the sire could have been desexed. there are many things that could have been done to ensure this "accident" doesn't happen again but i suspect another accident may happen.

i have also asked what is it about both those dogs that adds to the betterment of the breed, apart from proximity to each other?

ETS whilst the OP does not need to answer those questions, they cannot have it both ways, either start on the path to being a responsible breeder and get support from members of this forum, or dont answer the questions and look like a BYB.

Probably (I assume) the OP didn't know or wasn't aware of their importance.

Ultimately you can only do what you are aware of and this is dependent on your current knowledge and exposure and future learning (irrespective whether this is right or not).

To breeding 'responsbily' isn't automatic but comes through knowledge.

A few years ago I came across a BYB in Vic - dogs were kept in appaling conditions and not administered the vet treatment when needed -

there was a language and culture barrier.

So I would come past and bring ABs for the dogs, fox mange treatmenr etc

and then we would discuss what the best dogs look like, the lineage of their dogs and where they came from; phyiscal traits and the bloodlines these came from ...

now they are a very good breeder and registered.

I dont know what the OP intends or cares for

but I figure to take your dog to the vet three times, shows a genuine concern for their dogs health and welfare.

From concern for the health and welfare of your dog, can grow concern for the long term heath and welfare of your puppies, and from there concern and welfare for the health and welfare of your breed.

Once you see your dogs as part of a breed, and breed these dogs as an important part of the breed's continuam, everything else falls into place.

Edited May 3, 2010 by lilli

[fifi]

Fantastic post Lilli,

I've seen some very uniformed byb become outstanding breeders with support and information.

Sadly, I've also seen lots of byb become larger scale puppy farmers once a few dollars were waved at them for puppies.

All we can do is offer education and explain to people what the benefits are of dedication to the health and standards of a breed.

most people genuinely don't know the in's & out's of registering for a prefix or even the existance of the governing bodies or breed clubs to join.

fifi

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

As yet I am not registerd as a breeder but my dogs are registered. I did not intend to breed my dogs at this stage, so have not become registered. However I am not a byb in it for profit and have had experince in the past as stated. So no these pups cant be registered but does that make them any differnt??? I will find very responsible homes for them. I think I have been very open here and appreciate what you are saying however I just wanted some sound birthing advice to assist Pearl and add to my prior knowlege. I trust my vet and you dont get better qualified than a good vet with a degree in animal science and experience to match. What else can I say?

Does this mean I cant access this forum? Because that would be a real shame given the wealth of knowlege and genuine care many people show for dogs here. I have enjoyed talking with people and have not quizzed anyone on their credentials!

Just goes to show never assume anything on DOL -

a few pages back on 1 or 2,

I thought shall I ask if the OP is a registered breeder?

but then thought nah

must be

there are all these DOL groupies

probably someone knows the OP and the OP just doesn't know how to post on the breeder's forum ...........

but anyway here we are

and yes Jamieson you are welcome to post

but you will find that unreg breeders are not encouraged

and generally get less groupies

not because they are inherently bad or care for their dogs less

but because there is an unwritten DOL ethos that is about improving the standards of dog breeding and dog ownerhsip.

As an unregisterd breeder, you counter that.

HOWEVER there is no need to go screaming into the night

An unregistered breeder can become a registered breeder

and there are always direct ways of doing thigns

as well as the long wayward way;

Im not against the latter, I seem to be prone to it.

What state are you in?

If you enjoy learning about dog breeding, then I think you will find being a registered breeder

and the knowledge circles this can impart -

to be beneficial and of long standing interest.

whilst i agree with this in part lilli, i have asked the OP several questions regarding the health of the sire and bitch and again the OP has omitted to answer. so here we have an unplanned litter with dubious genetics and a potential litter of puppies that will go to owners with no desexing policy....now where in all of that is responsible breeding?

the bitch could have been desexed after the mating, the sire could have been desexed. there are many things that could have been done to ensure this "accident" doesn't happen again but i suspect another accident may happen.

i have also asked what is it about both those dogs that adds to the betterment of the breed, apart from proximity to each other?

ETS whilst the OP does not need to answer those questions, they cannot have it both ways, either start on the path to being a responsible breeder and get support from members of this forum, or dont answer the questions and look like a BYB.

Probably (I assume) the OP didn't know or wasn't aware of their importance.

Ultimately you can only do what you are aware of and this is dependent on your current knowledge and exposure and future learning (irrespective whether this is right or not).

To breeding 'responsbily' isn't automatic but comes through knowledge.

A few years ago I came across a BYB in Vic - dogs were kept in appaling conditions and not administered the vet treatment when needed -

there was a language and culture barrier.

So I would come past and bring ABs for the dogs, fox mange treatmenr etc

and then we would discuss what the best dogs look like, the lineage of their dogs and where they came from; phyiscal traits and the bloodlines these came from ...

now they are a very good breeder and registered.

I dont know what the OP intends or cares for

but I figure to take your dog to the vet three times, shows a genuine concern for their dogs health and welfare.

From concern for the health and welfare of your dog, can grow concern for the long term heath and welfare of your puppies, and from there concern and welfare for the health and welfare of your breed.

Once you see as part of a breed, and breed these dogs as an important part of the breed's continuam, everything else falls into place.

again, i agree lilli but it is a really thin line in an online forum where all we have are words. i appreciate the work you put into the byb you turned around and i respect what you did. i dont believe i have been too harsh on the OP.

what i am trying to do is to get them to see that there is more to breeding than letting 2 dogs mate. there is no question in my mind that that the OP is concerned about the bitch and is looking after her the best they can BUT lets call a spade a spade. I cannot betray the ethical responsible breeders that i know by accepting that the OP has good breeding practices.

a responsible breeder looks at:

- the lineage of their dogs and breeds to suit the betterment of the breed and for what they are looking for.

- they health check their dogs BEFORE mating as this is part of what determines the betterment of the breed questions.

- they think about who they will sell their puppies to and under what terms they will sell their puppies including their desexing policy

- ethical responsible breeders expect to take any dogs they have bred back no matter how old they are as they have a lifetime commitment to the dogs

- ethical breeders do this because they dont want their dogs to end up in pounds excacebating the issues

- ethical responsible breeders also often work with rescues as their commitment to dogs in general

- and tons more than this

the OP has not answered the basic critical question for this breed, have the parents been hip scored and if so were the results good enough for a breeding program.

if they havent done this critical health check then i cannot support them because the new owners who buy their puppies and fall in love with them may have years of heartache and expense fixing hip problems. then when they have to pts early and their hearts are breaking they will have learnt a very costly lesson, which is not to buy puppies from BYB's.

[Missymoo]

While I am opposed to BYB I admit before I got fully involved in the dog world I was very naive (true I didnt want to breed but I had no idea of genetics and a good dog etc)

I DO think the OP is being responsible for her level of knowledge and obviously cares about her pet.

Ok she made a mistake and too was naive...BUT she is sucking it up, rolling here on DOL with the puches AND instead of getting offended and huffing off, she is TAKING advice and we may end up with another ethical, reponsible breeder OR she will see it is better to desex after the whelping.

Please, please DO not scare her off, back off and let her get on with it.

Some great advice has been given and more will come and the OP is responding positivly, she has seen her mistakes and understands how people feel here.

Good Luck Jamison on the Welping and well done for taking constructive critisiem as it was meant to be, helpful!

PS Im not having a 'go' ant anyone, I just dont want to scare this poster away as she is showing postive signs of taking advive on board!! All the info has been constructive (abit some a harsh dose of reality , but STILL constructive!

Edited May 3, 2010 by Missymoo

[tdierikx]

So... have we started to see any action yet? I still want to know how many, what colour, what sex, etc... and pictures!!

I'm sure a few registered breeders here have had an accidental litter in their history - and I haven't seen any indication from jamieson that she doesn't care about the wellbeing of ALL her dogs - even the unborn ones. Some may be jumping to conclusions about what will happen after the pups are born...

Oh - and we still don't know Daddy's name... *grin*

T.

[blacklabrador]

So... have we started to see any action yet? I still want to know how many, what colour, what sex, etc... and pictures!!

I think it's going to be a mostly chocolate litter.

Edited May 3, 2010 by blacklabrador

[jamieson]

So... have we started to see any action yet? I still want to know how many, what colour, what sex, etc... and pictures!!

I'm sure a few registered breeders here have had an accidental litter in their history - and I haven't seen any indication from jamieson that she doesn't care about the wellbeing of ALL her dogs - even the unborn ones. Some may be jumping to conclusions about what will happen after the pups are born...

Oh - and we still don't know Daddy's name... *grin*

T.

Daddy is Roy. No action as yet but a restless night. I will keep you informed and try to ignore the sarcastic posts some people are making. Thanks for your support.

[redangel]

My only commentsis that 1. Hope that the bitch and pups concerned get through this. They have done nothing wrong.

2. While I dont advocate BYB I think to assume that unplanned litters are all destined to a miserable non desexed life is a generalisation. Yes we should point out the reason why BYB is so wrong, but does achieve anything to flame someone or give them a spanish inquisition when honestly it is evident what has happened here? Simply point out forum guidelines.

3 Acknowledge the person has done the wrong thing, made bad decisions and needs help. See the positive, they came to the right place to get information and educated - there is an opportunity to teach this person and have them better for it, does judgement/berating achieve this more than informed opinion. Dont think so.

4. OT- But if someone needs help re oops matings are they encouraged not to post here? Where do they go for help then...rescue forum??? Or go it alone? thats a risk I would be worried about. Good on the poster for keeping in touch with his/her vet. Please learn why the people above feel the way they do, they are trying to help.