Advice Please...puppy Apparently Dead After Illness

[mumof3]

Just on the idea of writing something like "deceased" on the papers. Be aware that someone half handy with a colour photocopier, or with photo editing software can remove something like this from a document without too much difficulty.

[WreckitWhippet]

Just a quick question, was the chip number recorded on the pedigree papers ?

[Dogsfevr]

Just a quick question, was the chip number recorded on the pedigree papers ?

Was about to ask the exact same question & if not get the # put on asap

[WreckitWhippet]

Just a quick question, was the chip number recorded on the pedigree papers ?

Was about to ask the exact same question & if not get the # put on asap

Yep because the chip has to correspond with the ANKC papers and the chip in the dog to be of any value. If they are trying to pull something dodgy, the chip will bring it all undone.

[Rubric]

No, the microchip number was not on the papers. I hadn't had the puppies chipped, after the dramas we had with the last litter at the vets (not getting number confused between the puppies, as well as 3 extra puppies this litter), I thought it easier to let the new owners do it, stupid me

I won't be so stupid next time, if there is one...It's amazing how many idiots come out of the woodwork when you have puppies for sale.

I just spoke to an independant vet and she feels it is highly unlikely that his puppy could have contracted the e coli from here and not show symptoms for 6 weeks. That's if his had e coli to begin with.

Thanks again, you guys are being extremely helpful

[Fleuri]

@Beauie I agree with what you are saying about the reimbursment, he is not asking for money back for the puppy, just the papers, should he not get them.

Maybe he feels ripped off/sad and doesn't think you would give him back the money for the pup anyway, so he thinks he may not get the papers either, so he is asking for at least the reimbursment for the papers.

[casowner]

I thought that pups had to be microchipped before they went to new homes? Is that correct or am I mistaken?

Just looked up Dogs Victoria and found this -

*What you should expect from the person who sells you a puppy:

•A vaccination certificate which shows vaccinations given, when the next ones are due, and evidence of the puppy's age (it is against DOGS Victoria's Code of Ethics to sell a puppy under 8 weeks of age).

•ANKC Registration Certificate (papers)

•When it was treated for worms and how often it needs to be treated in future

•A feeding chart

•Information on the puppy's likely nature, temperament, size and care requirements.

•Details of any hereditary diseases or health problems which are known to affect the breed.

•Information on responsible pet ownership, in particular care and welfare of the puppy, the time and facilities required for proper management (socialisation, exercise, adequate fencing, sufficient space and proper shelter)

Seems they don't have to be microchipped but they are supposed to be supploed with the Papers. Microchipping allows the breeder to keep records of the pup and I thought that it was common practice to do so

Edited May 18, 2010 by casowner

[megan_]

No, the microchip number was not on the papers. I hadn't had the puppies chipped, after the dramas we had with the last litter at the vets (not getting number confused between the puppies, as well as 3 extra puppies this litter), I thought it easier to let the new owners do it, stupid me

I won't be so stupid next time, if there is one...It's amazing how many idiots come out of the woodwork when you have puppies for sale.

I just spoke to an independant vet and she feels it is highly unlikely that his puppy could have contracted the e coli from here and not show symptoms for 6 weeks. That's if his had e coli to begin with.

Thanks again, you guys are being extremely helpful

I thought it was illegal to sell an unchipped pup in Victoria? Not having a go, just asking a question.

[Fleuri]

Though he shouldn't be feeling ripped off as it wasn't your fault anyway.

[casowner]

Off the Amstaff Club of Victoria website

7 Questions To Ask A Breeder

1. Ask the breeder if they are selling the puppies with ANKC registration papers

If the answer is no or if it is dependant on price then look elsewhere. Never buy an Amstaff without pedigree papers or from a breeder who sells dogs without papers.

2. Ask the breeder if the puppies will come microchipped, vaccinated, and de-wormed

Every puppy sold should be sold with a microchip for identification, with full vaccinations and de-wormed. You should receive the puppies vet card detailing its previous vaccinations and when it is due for the next one. This is very important as a young puppy that is not vaccinated is at serious risk of contracting diseases such as Canine Parvovirus which is often fatal. The microchip is also very important as it can allow identification by any vet or animal control officer if your dog is lost at any stage during its life.

3. Ask the breeder about the sire and dam’s temperament

Are they laid back dogs? Or are they very active dogs with high drives? A prospective puppy buyer should aim to find a puppy with a temperament and personality that is suitable for their lifestyle. The temperament of the puppy’s parents can be a good indicator of how the pup may turn out.

4. Ask to view the parents

The breeder should allow you to view the parents or at least the dam if they have used a stud from out of town.

5. Ask if the breeder has done any health testing on the sire and dam?

Health testing will not guarantee the pups are free from defects but it will give a good indication of the likelihood so the buyer can make an informed decision. The sire and dam should be tested for cerebellar ataxia and hip and elbow screened at the least, although cardiac, eye and thyroid tests are also highly recommended, among others. The breeder should be willing to show the prospective buyer the results.

6. Ask the breeder what they hope to achieve from this breeding

Someone who is breeding for the betterment of the breed will have carefully planned their litter and will have a specific outcome in mind. They may be looking to improve certain areas of their dogs appearance - for example they may be hoping to improve their topline or reduce the height of their dogs - or they may be aiming to improve the temperament such as increasing their working drives. If a breeder has no answer to this question then it is a sign they may be breeding for money or ego and thus you should look elsewhere.

7. Ask the breeder how many litters they have produced

One of the biggest problems faced by the pure bred dog community are “puppy farmers”. Puppy farmers are breeders who produced high number of litters and sell them to anyone who has the money without caring where the pups end up. Their primary motivation for breeding is to make money. If the breeder is breeding a large number of litters per year then this is cause for concern. The American Staffordshire Terrier is not a breed for everyone and so the breeder should be very concerned about where their pups are placed. It is common for breeders to ask potential puppy buyers many questions as it shows they care about the breed and what happens to the future of their puppies.

Maybe they are dodgy but maybe they are concerned that they have bought an unmicrochipped puppy that they haven't received papers for also. I am certainly not supporting them but after reading that I would ask questions also if it was me. I understand that legally you are not obliged to microchip them but surely it is strongly recommended especially if the breed Club promotes it.

Did you supply them with a copy of the papers or the parents papers when they collected the pups? If it was me (thank goodness i don't breed) I would refund the cost of the puppy to make the problem go away to avoid any further issues as they clearly are not letting the matter drop.

Edited May 18, 2010 by casowner

[puglvr]

Under the law puppies that come from commercial breeding practises have to be microchipped. That is pet shops and registered comercial breeders. Therefore if you are a member of the VCA and are not registered as a business you do not have to microchip your puppies before you sell them. However, the new owners will have to have them microchipped to register them with the council.

This sounds a little "suss" and I would be refunding the purchase price and chalking it up to experience. Also look at having a contract, some people will say it's not worth te paper it is written on but it is better than verbal agreements.

[Aziah]

Upon receiving a signed death certificate from the treating Vet, refund the purchase price and be done with it.

Ensure everything is documented, ensure you forward the death cert. along with registration papers for that pup back to Dogs VIC and keep a record of everything.

[Rubric]

It is not illegal to sell the puppies without microchips, I am not a commercial breeder and I did do it last litter...BUT being so many puppies this litter, I thought it would be much easier (and avoid confusion and possible mix up) for each new owner to do it themselves. This is only me second and possibly last litter.

All purchasers were fully aware the puppies would not be micro chipped and that they WILL get the papers, so there is no need to him to feel ripped off, and if he had paid to have a culture done, he would have known what was wrong with the puppy.

I did not supply them with a copy of my dogs' pedigrees as they would have gotten their own pedigree for their own puppy.

[casowner]

Rubric I am not suggesting that you have done the wrong thing at all, but I am trying to see it from different points of view. If it was my puppy I would have done anything possible to find out what was wrong and have the puppy treated. When I bought my pup my breeder supplied me with copies of papers for my reference, he was microchipped and even though it took a long time to get his actual papers I felt assured as I had the copies of the others. From a new owners point of view if I read the Breed Clubs website I would have started to get little niggly concerns due to some of it's content. It is a horrible tragedy as a breeder and an owner and I am sure that you want to handle it as best as you can minimising everyones stress levels. If my posts have offended you I am sorry but they are comments I have found just by taking 5 minutes googling and if I can find them I can imagine what angry or upset puppy buyers can find. People in emotional states can make irrational decisions (again not at all suggesting you) and that it why I think it would be best to come to a solution without causing you further anxiety.

As I said I do not breed, I have the support and knowledge base of a wonderful breeder and to me that is vital for me to help with the life long care of my dog and my chosen breed. I would though ask for written confirmation from the vet that the pup has died so that when you contact DogsVictoria you have actual confirmation. If you have done the paperwork and have transferred ownership into their names, would Dogs Victoria take your word for the pup being deceased? Just an honest query

[nickojoy]

Microchipping Laws from May 2007

DOGS Victoria wish to advise members who are Commercial Breeders that they must microchip all dogs prior to sale. All Victorian veterinarians have been advised by Government that the microchip must comply with Government guidelines. On 1st May 2007, all dogs, which are being registered with a council for the first time, must be microchipped prior to registration and councils will have the power to require compulsory microchipping of dogs housed in their municipality.

Hereditary diseases and microchipping

DOGS Victoria and ANKC require positive identification of dogs to participate in hereditary diseases control programs, with the option of tattoo or microchip, so that there is no question as to the authenticity of results. While DOGS Victoria will continue to recognise tattoos for existing hereditary disease control programs, the move to microchip is happening across the community.

DOGS Victoria and ANKC are supporting the move to microchips and encouraging members to do so to be seen as responsible dog owners.

[Andisa]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.....he only wants money back if he doesnt get the papers, which is why I feel something fishy is going on.....

This sounds lots of alarm bells for me too. Sounds like he wants to use the papers somehow.

Yes - people pay pedigree prices for dogs with PHOTO COPY of papers - who's papers - who knows. (This was before microchipping came in - but if the chips were not listed on the papers at time of printing them then any number can be added or just left blank)

But when I asked to see their original papers they told me this is what they got. Shonky to say the least.

This is the only reason I can think of if someone is only interested in the papers once a dog is dead.

(I still have the papers to a pup we pts at 8 weeks old - when I called the VCA they told me I could throw them out if I wanted to - maybe this has since changed.)

Edited May 18, 2010 by Andisa

[BJean]

Hi Guys,

This is an extremely long post and I apologise, but please read on...

I am just after some advice from the breeders here. My dog had a litter of 10 puppies (Feb 13), 5 of which went to their new homes at 8 weeks. 2 weeks later, 4 out of the 5 puppies I still had at home contracted a severe e-coli infection. One passed away, the rest made a full recovery after a few days on a drip. The e-coli was diagnosed after a stool culture.

About 5 days ago, someone who had purchased a puppy at 8 weeks called me to say the puppy is vomiting and lethargic. I told him to take it to the vet ASAP, telling him what had happened with my puppies to reiterate the urgency needed for the dog to see the vet.

So he took it and called me on Saturday to say it will be coming home on Sunday and the vet said this puppy came from a very sick litter, blah, blah.....So, I called the vet, and of course he said he didnt say that. Also he said he doubts this puppy's illness is related to my other ones, this puppy wasnt as sick as mine but he couldnt be sure what it is exactly because the new owner wasnt prepared to pay to have a culture done.

Now this guy called me last night to say the puppy had died (which TBH IDK if I believe, why would the vet send it home on Sunday if it was still at risk or death), and telling me how devestated they are, etc.....

BUT, in the same breath, he is asking for reimbursement for the actual pedigree papers (I am still waiting on the papers from Dogs Victoria), should he not receive his them...

I am not sure what the prodecure is about the death of puppies/dogs who are registered with Dogs Victoria and I am under the assuption that because these are Amstaff puppies, he plans to use the papers with a Pitbull, but my papers will 'prove' it is an Amstaff. Why else would he want papers for a dog whom is supposedly dead ?

He finished the conversation saying Dont forget I know where you live....now I am not scared, and I do not want to supply him papers for a dead puppy, to be misued, and the vet will not tell me anything due to confidentality.

The actual papers cost like $30, so I am thinking of giving him the $30 and showing him that is the actual cost for the papers, then he will have his money back, but I will not refund any more.

This is the first time I have dealt with such a fool and I would appreicate absolutely ANY advice you have to offer.

Thank you in advance.

Re ascertaining if puppy is actually dead and/or cause of death:

Get your vet to contact the owner's vet

under the premise that you want to know whether the cause of death to the pup may have broader consequences for you as a breeder.

Re bogan threats:

Ignore them. Tell him that you know where he lives too so big woop.

Re papers:

Tough titties. Tell him as per rules and regulations they are being sent in to Dogs Vic as the pup has died.

It doesn't matter that he bought the pup, your the official owner of the papers according to Dogs Vic, so when you receive them from DogsVic, send them back via express post and marked 'dog now decased'.

Re pup reimbursement:

Send him a refund for the purchase cost of the pup only.

In the name of good will and your ethics as a breeder.

Close chapter

Edited May 18, 2010 by lilli

[Rubric]

@casowner...no offense taken at all. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I am definately going to ask of proof of death from the vet, he saw the same vet we also see. I agree that all tests should have been done to find out the exact cause of its vomiting etc...which is what I did with my puppies.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the vet said to me that this puppy was not as sick as my puppies. SO...if this is the case, why are my puppies who were sicker still alive, and his died the day after he brought it home from the vet.

TBH I do not believe the puppy is dead at all, I think once I told him that one of my puppies had died from this, he saw that as a way to try and extort money from me.

Anyway, what I have decided to do is give him the $30 for the papers and also a black and white photo copy of his puppy's papers with 'DECEASED' written across it. And then return the original to Dogs Victoria.

[nickojoy]

@casowner...no offense taken at all. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I am definately going to ask of proof of death from the vet, he saw the same vet we also see. I agree that all tests should have been done to find out the exact cause of its vomiting etc...which is what I did with my puppies.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the vet said to me that this puppy was not as sick as my puppies. SO...if this is the case, why are my puppies who were sicker still alive, and his died the day after he brought it home from the vet.

TBH I do not believe the puppy is dead at all, I think once I told him that one of my puppies had died from this, he saw that as a way to try and extort money from me.

Anyway, what I have decided to do is give him the $30 for the papers and also a black and white photo copy of his puppy's papers with 'DECEASED' written across it. And then return the original to Dogs Victoria.

Get a black thick pen and cover the registration number prior to sending it also.

[kiesha09]

Are you sure they even took the puppy back to the vets after it had died? There may not even be a death certificate in that case.