Border Collies And Australian Shepherds

[Kavik]

Go for a koolie - no major health issues and they are a lot cheaper to buy and will do anything you want - whether it is agility, herding or obedience. They are bright, friendly, loyal, wash and wear, come in a huge variety of colours, what more could you want.

I would not let lack of ANKC registration put me off. They can be registered in sporting or associate and do all of the activities she has listed.

They certainly do very well in agility and are highly trainable dogs with good temperaments.

I do not think as a rule Koolies meet the big and goofy description however. Sleek and sexy maybe! LOL

If I were to look at koolies I would be asking for hip scoring on parents and eye exams on the parents and pups. Avoid double merle litters. Make sure they can hear.

Double merle litters would be a problem in any breed. Koolie Club breeders would not breed a double merle litter. I am not aware of any Koolies having hip problems. A pup from a Koolie Club breeder is generally under $350. Some are big but I have not met a goofy one, although some do seem to have a definite sense of humour and like to play and tease. Certaionly fun to live with. I have not had an Aussie although I have friends who have a couple and I do not see much difference except tails and price and a guaranteed long coat. I have had a border collie who was a delight also but the koolie has more of an off switch.

There is one well known breeder who states on their website they only breed merle to merle and do not breed solid colours. I research Koolies too I looked up this particular breeder because I liked one of their dogs I see at agility. If you are interested in Koolies I would carefully research temperament, there seems to be a lot of variation and not much consistency in the breed (this is the general consensus from talking to as many people with Koolies that I can find)

Edited July 16, 2010 by Kavik

[Mystiqview]

Kavik,

It is no worse at the moment in the ANKC border collie where people are breeding ee-red to merle.

That is just a disaster waiting to happen if someone without half a brain gets hold of an ee-red animal and breeds it back to a merle dog.

Temperament seems to be an issue across all breeds really. Some breeders really do not look at temperament when breeding which they should do. No matter which breed, researching breeders is vital. Some of the ones I have seen with sus temperaments have been in the breed 20+ years and should know better.

Time in breed is good, however does not guarantee quality.

[Beth.]

Go for a koolie - no major health issues and they are a lot cheaper to buy and will do anything you want - whether it is agility, herding or obedience. They are bright, friendly, loyal, wash and wear, come in a huge variety of colours, what more could you want.

I would not let lack of ANKC registration put me off. They can be registered in sporting or associate and do all of the activities she has listed.

They certainly do very well in agility and are highly trainable dogs with good temperaments.

I do not think as a rule Koolies meet the big and goofy description however. Sleek and sexy maybe! LOL

If I were to look at koolies I would be asking for hip scoring on parents and eye exams on the parents and pups. Avoid double merle litters. Make sure they can hear.

Double merle litters would be a problem in any breed. Koolie Club breeders would not breed a double merle litter. I am not aware of any Koolies having hip problems. A pup from a Koolie Club breeder is generally under $350. Some are big but I have not met a goofy one, although some do seem to have a definite sense of humour and like to play and tease. Certaionly fun to live with. I have not had an Aussie although I have friends who have a couple and I do not see much difference except tails and price and a guaranteed long coat. I have had a border collie who was a delight also but the koolie has more of an off switch.

I have an Aussie and my friend has a Koolie and they are so very very very very very different it's unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!! So much more then just a tail and the price tag (and our price tag didn't vary that much ). Her Koolie is on the go 24 hours!!!! He is so over the top and crazy (he's a cutie though ), but definately nothing like any Aussie i've ever met. Just the difference when we're out at obedience. Lottie is happy to sit and watch and is very calm, while this little fella is so worked up barking and jumping around and just generally so distracted. He gets off-lead runs daily, with a few training sessions, and i've yet to see him 'turn off'. Not that there arn't other breeds like that, but I just thought i'd add that that in my experience with the koolies i've met, they are very different!!! He's definately hasn't been the easiest dog for my friend to bring up!! And I don't have anything against Koolies at all!! I just think theres individual differences, and research needs to be done into any breed

[Parkeyre]

Breeders of Australian Shepherds are breeding Merle to Merle litters.

please learn all you can before deciding.

Pop over and ask a hundred questions in the aussie thread if you like.

You'll get all the information you could ever want.

[Lucy's mama]

Breeders of Australian Shepherds are breeding Merle to Merle litters.

please learn all you can before deciding.

Really?? That is bizaar... Do you know the breeders reasoning for taking that sort of risk?

[leopuppy04]

Breeders of Australian Shepherds are breeding Merle to Merle litters.

please learn all you can before deciding.

Really?? That is bizaar... Do you know the breeders reasoning for taking that sort of risk?

Reason being that both parents compliment each other nicely and the breeder is willing to take the risk of some double merle puppies. Double merle pups that they are willing to cull at birth.

Up to the discretion of the breeder IMO, although I do think it strange that you can't do a merle to merle in BC's but you can in other breeds

[Gayle.]

I was talking to an Aussie breeder about this once, and she said breeders should only do it if they are willing to cull the double merle puppies at birth. She said it was very easy to tell them from the normal pups and the mothers usually reject them anyway.

[JulesP]

Wow. IMO very unethical.

ETA: I guess the diff with BC is Merle isn't a main colour so really no need to go there.

Edited July 17, 2010 by JulesP

[shortstep]

Wow. IMO very unethical.

ETA: I guess the diff with BC is Merle isn't a main colour so really no need to go there.

Most merle to merle breeding I have heard about in the past, have take place to make more money in the future.

Good practice is to always breed a Mm Merle toa solid dog, and you will get about half Mm merles and half solid pups.

When you breed Mm merle to Mm merle a certain number of the pups in the litter will be MM (only have M gene to pass on).

If they can locate the MM dogs in the litter, these MM dogs will only produce merles when bred to solid dogs ( in other words a MM to solid dog litter, all the pups will be Mm merles).

Since these type of breeders are breeding to make money and the merles are sold for more money (often their solid dogs have no value at all), they will make more money on the all merle litters from a MM parent, about double more money than a normal Mm merle to a solid dog litter. It's all about $$$$.

The border collies in ANKC have a rule that you cannot registered merle to merle litters, but of course this will only help to prevent this practice if the dogs are registered as the colours they really are.

Edited July 17, 2010 by shortstep

[leopuppy04]

Wow. IMO very unethical.

ETA: I guess the diff with BC is Merle isn't a main colour so really no need to go there.

Most merle to merle breeding I have heard about in the past, have take place to make more money in the future.

Good practice is to always breed a Mm Merle toa solid dog, and you will get about half Mm merles and half solid pups.

When you breed Mm merle to Mm merle a certain number of the pups in the litter will be MM (only have M gene to pass on).

If they can locate the MM dogs in the litter, these MM dogs will only produce merles when bred to solid dogs ( in other words a MM to solid dog litter, all the pups will be Mm merles).

Since these type of breeders are breeding to make money and the merles are sold for more money (often their solid dogs have no value at all), they will make more money on the all merle litters from a MM parent, about double more money than a normal Mm merle to a solid dog litter. It's all about $$$$.

The border collies in ANKC have a rule that you cannot registered merle to merle litters, but of course this will only help to prevent this practice if the dogs are registered as the colours they really are.

that's a highly unethical way of breeding and I know it happened/ happens in the US, but certainly don't think that any Australian Aussie breeder that I know who have done a merle x merle do so for this reason!

why keep a white, deaf and blind dog to breed just to breed merles.

don't make it sound like it's the norm, as many breeders do so just as they would a tri x tri, because they feel that this mating is what compliments their lines the best.

I'm neither supporting nor dissing it... just stating what I have seen/ heard.

[Lucy's mama]

Wow. IMO very unethical.

Yeah, it doesn't really sit well with me either. I think I would not buy anything from a breeder if I knew they were doing this. The life of possibly 25% of the litter is less important than breeding a closer to perfect dog? Surely another complimentry, solid coloured dog could be found.

[shortstep]

Wow. IMO very unethical.

ETA: I guess the diff with BC is Merle isn't a main colour so really no need to go there.

Most merle to merle breeding I have heard about in the past, have take place to make more money in the future.

Good practice is to always breed a Mm Merle toa solid dog, and you will get about half Mm merles and half solid pups.

When you breed Mm merle to Mm merle a certain number of the pups in the litter will be MM (only have M gene to pass on).

If they can locate the MM dogs in the litter, these MM dogs will only produce merles when bred to solid dogs ( in other words a MM to solid dog litter, all the pups will be Mm merles).

Since these type of breeders are breeding to make money and the merles are sold for more money (often their solid dogs have no value at all), they will make more money on the all merle litters from a MM parent, about double more money than a normal Mm merle to a solid dog litter. It's all about $$$$.

The border collies in ANKC have a rule that you cannot registered merle to merle litters, but of course this will only help to prevent this practice if the dogs are registered as the colours they really are.

that's a highly unethical way of breeding and I know it happened/ happens in the US, but certainly don't think that any Australian Aussie breeder that I know who have done a merle x merle do so for this reason!

why keep a white, deaf and blind dog to breed just to breed merles.

don't make it sound like it's the norm, as many breeders do so just as they would a tri x tri, because they feel that this mating is what compliments their lines the best.

I'm neither supporting nor dissing it... just stating what I have seen/ heard.

I did not say it was normal practice, nor did I say it happened in OZ, nor did I say it happens with any breed in particular or any other breed. You OK with that now?

Not all the MM pups will have a health problems some will be normal.

[Perry's Mum]

Are Koolies hip scored as a matter of course?

No - they have never had a history of hip problems so there has not been seen to be a reason for it.

[Mystiqview]

Are Koolies hip scored as a matter of course?

No - they have never had a history of hip problems so there has not been seen to be a reason for it.

And there lies the danger. If no checks are done, then how do you know there is a problem brewing? I know a breeder who used to hip/elbow score their toy dogs, no one else did under the guise "There is no known problem within the breed". Can you imagine the shock to find there was??

I know another breeder of Dalmatians, it has only recently become common practice there as "there as no history".. well imagine her surprise when she got 0:2 elbows.

I know of another breeder who did not believe in hip scoring as they did not like putting the dogs under anesthetic for the xrays. A litter was bred and at 8 months had a number of pups within the litter end up with HD.

I have seen ISDS border collies with high hip scores in the 20's. Now there is not supposed to be a hip problem with the working lines either. I have just done a google search on ISDS working dogs. I see a couple of Astra dogs with hip scores around 5:7. While many are very similar to show line bcs, with many show line bcs also having much lower hip scores. I have found these: (again it was believed our working border collie cousins did not have hip issues) This information is courtesy of the Anadune Website

GROMIT TIMORG- 10:8

BLACKGOLD TEDDYBEAR - 12:9

Oh Ted (ISDS 292354) - 5:7

Germal Fern (ISDS 263789) 13:5

Killiebrae Ammo (ISDS 262178) 8/16

Sheltysham Strolin Home (ISDS 265832) 9:10

Manderians Falcon (ISDS 282001)

Black Tricolour Dog, born 4 May 2006, sire Manderian Summersolstice, dam Shepwood Burning Torch For Manderian (ISDS 268850), hips 26/22

Highyews Moi Pikta Kyon (ISDS 269353)

Black Tricolour Dog, born 2 Dec 2003, sire Ben Of Highyews (ISDS 237001), dam Highyews Dreamer (ISDS 251408), hips 29/34

Pandy Ebony Gray (ISDS 260577)

Black Tricolour Dog, born 27 Aug 2002, sire Cap (ISDS 245477), dam Elian Peg (ISDS 240030), hips 36/37

Random interesting read: http://www.dogsworldwide.com/drdog/contributions/mw2.htm

[Gayle.]

Yeah, it doesn't really sit well with me either. I think I would not buy anything from a breeder if I knew they were doing this. The life of possibly 25% of the litter is less important than breeding a closer to perfect dog? Surely another complimentry, solid coloured dog could be found.

How would you know? And there's a possibility that you already did.

Edited July 17, 2010 by GayleK

[Parkeyre]

Breeders of Australian Shepherds are breeding Merle to Merle litters.

please learn all you can before deciding.

Really?? That is bizaar... Do you know the breeders reasoning for taking that sort of risk?

I don't know the reason sorry. I know that I can't think of any good reason.

The most recent one I can think of was last year.

I think if it's justified and a carefully planned, purposely bred litter in good hands then it might be fine.

It's just that there are risks, double merle etc.

[Lucy's mama]

QUOTE

Yeah, it doesn't really sit well with me either. I think I would not buy anything from a breeder if I knew they were doing this. The life of possibly 25% of the litter is less important than breeding a closer to perfect dog? Surely another complimentry, solid coloured dog could be found.

How would you know? And there's a possibility that you already did.

Do you know something I don't? Or are you saying it is a possibility with any breeder?

Regardless, I may not know, I said IF I knew I would not buy from that breeder. If the registered breeder I got Banjo from breeds merle to merle there is obviously nothing I can do about it now. I'm not going to beat myself up over it after the fact.

I find it quite contradictory that unregistered breeding is frowned upon yet a registered breeder going ahead with a mating that is likely to result in culling a quarter of the litter is acceptable.

[Parkeyre]

This thread is bonkers.

[haylz27]

It really is Bonnie.

[leopuppy04]

I'm third to agree with that