Can Dogs Have Learning Disabilities?

[corvus]

I met this Boxer that after 20 reps of a very simple association still seems completely unaware of it. It seems unusual to me. Every other dog so far has picked it up in half that many reps or less. Is she stupid?? I've never said that about a dog before!

[Cosmolo]

Can i ask what the association was? I find that some dogs don't know 'how to learn' initially- usually as a result of poor socialisation, no prior training, poor training etc. So its almost learned lack of intelligence. Once you get them past the initial hurdle then they suddently become alot 'smarter'. My theory is that these dogs lack the brain pathways of others but that this physiological issue improves significantly with more repetitions (amongst other things) and thus the dog i capable of improving significantly.

[boxagirl]

I met this Boxer that after 20 reps of a very simple association still seems completely unaware of it. It seems unusual to me. Every other dog so far has picked it up in half that many reps or less. Is she stupid?? I've never said that about a dog before!

Maybe she's smarter than the owner and just doesn't want to do it

[Janba]

I know a BC puppy who I saw from a new born who was PTS before 6 months because of learning disabilities - it was almost like he had a form of autism, he just wasn't right but the rest of the litter was fine.

I do own a BC of very little brain and he does have a low dog IQ and takes time to learn. My other BC learns on a couple of repetitions and that is harder as it is so easy to teach him the wrong thing. I do think that you probably do get a range of intelligence within breeds just like you do people.

[poodlefan]

Sure can - generally they're called handlers

[persephone]

Years ago .. I revived a puppy at birth... she was permanently happy.. and not really able to learn much I do believe dogs learn at different rates- and more importantly..in different ways..and for different reasons.

[Henrietta]

Sure can - generally they're called handlers

Omg - that's me.

[Kelpie-i]

I currently have a shih tzu in for boarding/training that I think is suffering from lack of 'learning to learn'. I have worked with and trained hundreds of different dogs (including a pig) and I can honestly say this little girl is proving quite a challenge in that she seems to forget everything, even within seconds of doing it. She also switches off very quickly and is 'off with the fairies' on a regular basis.

Then again, she probably doesn't see the reason why she should sit/stay or drop/stay on wet grass

Edited January 13, 2011 by Kelpie-i

[Ashley]

You Have never met my Tohko....

Ok maybe it is me -- But Why is my Zuess So Smart ?

[poodlefan]

It's like those ridiculous "what breed is smartest lists". "Smart" to a lot of folk means "biddable" or "trainable".

The fact that a dog isn't turning itself inside out to follow hander instruction or to try and give desireable behaviour might not mean its 'stubborn' or 'dumb'.

Dogs have to learn to learn. Some dogs don't give a toss about pleasing you unless there's something in it for them.

I have no doubt that there are dogs with brain damage and learning disabilities but it sure pays to look to the other end of the lead before applying those labels to a dog. A dog that's easily distracted, not used to working for reward or that has learned to tune the handler out could fail to offer a behaviour after 20 reps. Or as someone else says, maybe it doesn't give a toss.

Edited January 13, 2011 by poodlefan

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I have no doubt that there are dogs with brain damage and learning disabilities but it sure pays to look to the other end of the lead before applying those labels to a dog. A dog that's easily distracted, not used to working for reward or that has learned to tune the handler out could fail to offer a behaviour after 20 reps. Or as someone else says, maybe it doesn't give a toss.

I have to say, when I saw the question I thought "oh god, I'll hear that now in addition to the rest of the excuses".

He's a rescue, so he can't sit

He's a spitz, so he can't sit

He's learning disabled, so he can't sit. Yeesh.

Agree with PF that the greatest handicap most dogs have is their handler, and I include mine in that assessment

[poodlefan]

Boredom is another reason dogs fail to respond.

Try 20 reps on a lot of sighthounds they'll have mentally left the building. I've actually watched Howard run the "this isn't fun anymore flag" up in agility training. He'll just tune out.

Dogs that won't be drilled aren't dumb - quite the contrary in some ways!!

I can see it now. At no. 20 you go "sit Howard" and he'll go "I"ve already done it five times" .. you want "sit", YOU do it!!"

Then of course you can see "learned helplessness". The dog doesn't know what you want and is too stressed to try so they just quit.

Edited January 13, 2011 by poodlefan

[Janba]

It's like those ridiculous "what breed is smartest lists". "Smart" to a lot of folk means "biddable" or "trainable".

The fact that a dog isn't turning itself inside out to follow hander instruction or to try and give desireable behaviour might not mean its 'stubborn' or 'dumb'.

I agree with the biddable bit but when you have a biddable breed that is slow on the uptake you wonder. My dallies haav a far greater problem solving ability than most of my BCs but a lower trainability.

The BC who I think is smart I am basing that not just on what I purposely teach him but on what he does that isn't purposely taught. When I started trialling him B course he had never seen a star post as a start peg or trialled in an open paddock. The first trial we walked the 100 odd metres to the start peg and waited till the sheep were set. The second trial a few weeks later he took off as we atarted down the hill to the start post and sat by it and waited for me, watching where the sheep were being bought out. The taking off was bad but you would expect a sheepdog with a strong instinct to have taken off towards the sheep not in the opposite direction to a star post.

[tlc]

I met this Boxer that after 20 reps of a very simple association still seems completely unaware of it. It seems unusual to me. Every other dog so far has picked it up in half that many reps or less. Is she stupid?? I've never said that about a dog before!

What was it you were trying to teach her? any chance she is deaf?

My youngest has certainly been a challenge to train, he is eager to please but extremely impatient, I kind of liken it to a child who is desperate for a lolly and just can't contain himself. Is he dumb, I don't think so sometimes in other ways he is more clever than the smartest one

There is so many variables, I think with my boy he has such a different personality than the other 3.

The last part of your post PF you described Bronson, he is so busy knowing he will get a treat that the thing he is supposed to be learning just doesnt sink in, he is focused on the food. I have tried a few other methods that have worked, and he is generally well behaved to a point that I am happy with now. We go to training and he is a model student at home not always, its like he has to show off. :D

[tlc]

I have no doubt that there are dogs with brain damage and learning disabilities but it sure pays to look to the other end of the lead before applying those labels to a dog. A dog that's easily distracted, not used to working for reward or that has learned to tune the handler out could fail to offer a behaviour after 20 reps. Or as someone else says, maybe it doesn't give a toss.

I have to say, when I saw the question I thought "oh god, I'll hear that now in addition to the rest of the excuses".

He's a rescue, so he can't sit

He's a spitz, so he can't sit

He's learning disabled, so he can't sit. Yeesh.

Agree with PF that the greatest handicap most dogs have is their handler, and I include mine in that assessment :D

That is so true, Im sure other instructors will also agree. People come to obedience all the time and they say he won't, he won't he won't and one of the instructor takes the dog for a few minutes to do a demo and the dog is perfectly capable fo doing all those "he won'ts"

[corvus]

Well, I dunno. The association is just touch target with nose = marker/reward. No handlers and we have some food rewards carefully placed to get the ball rolling. There have been a couple of dogs that don't seem to realise they CAN do something to get a reward. There was one dog that was a bit stressed and didn't care for the reward offered. There were a few dogs that were too anxious to get very far, and there are a couple that are very easily distracted or get bored after a couple of minutes. We have been able to cope with those. This dog is something else, though. She acts eager all the way through sessions and beyond, happily devours the reward, cocks her head when she triggers a marker and staaaares at where the reward comes into the tray EVERY time, but just cannot seem to make the connection between her action and the reward. I don't really understand what is happening. To me, it defies learning theory. I'm not a learning theory fanatic and I know about all the alternatives, but none of them match to me. I'm pretty sure she's not bored by the repetition. We have dogs that are and they work steadily for a couple of minutes then go lie down. She is yet to work steadily for even half a minute. It's like every mark/reward is independent to her. She seems happy enough to just stand by the mysterious machine and wait for it to produce the goods. What amazes me is how she can pay so much attention to the sequence touch-marker-reward, appear to want the reward, and yet not increase her touching behaviour. This staring at the reward as it appears thing is characteristic of other dogs we have that have been breezing through the training. I was really surprised when I saw her doing it again and again and yet she still didn't catch on. In all other respects she is a perfectly normal dog.

[Erny]

Well, I dunno. The association is just touch target with nose = marker/reward.

I teach touch target with nose to most of my boarding/training dogs. It's an exercise that can be useful later if the owners want to keep it up and expand on it once they pick their dog up but I mainly use it to help get the dog thinking or "learning to learn". It is usually a really fun and easy exercise for most dogs so once learnt it acts like a sorbet between meals to clean the palet, except this is a sorbet to break up the training session exercises.

Anyway, I have found there are a few dogs who just don't cotton to it, but might excel in something else more quickly than another dog.

I actually had two same litter sisters in at one stage and it was really interesting to note how one would pick up on something really fast, but not something else, whereas the other could be completely the opposite. This was the case for targeting as well. One loved it and caught on quickly. The other took a while but eventually and suddenly became enthused for it. They both proved to be really good dogs - once they'd learnt to learn it was as though they couldn't soak up enough training and they really learnt in leaps and bounds after the first somewhat slower start. But they did learn different things at different rates.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Erny

[JulesP]

Is the boxer the only short nosed breed? What is the equipment like? It might not be super comfortable for her to touch the object.

[pipsqueak]

I totally agree with poodlefan(?) on the sighthound thing. I took our sighthound x to tracking training one day to see how she would go. First track, she was totally clueless - to be expected as we'd never done anything like it before. Second half of the second track she suddenly put it together and started to track nicely. Third track, you could see her attitude change - it was like "Mum, we've already done this twice, why am I doing it again?!" Just lost interest totally, even though she was capable - and mind you, they were very short tracks of perhaps 20-30 metres!

Same dog was clueless when she first came to us about the concept of following a lure. If you tried to lure her by bringing a treat in front of her nose and moving it away for her to follow, she wouldn't follow it, but rather quiet happily stand there and watch the treat disappear into the distance, or wait for the treat to be given to her. I think I've mentioned before that I had intended on training her with "purely positive" (ie., hands off) training, but had to resort to physically guiding her in order to make any progress... otherwise I had nothing to reward.

Finally, this is a dog that took six months to learn how to sit!!! Perhaps it is a reflection on my training ability or her physical limitations (sighthounds often find it difficult to sit). However, recently she learnt to spin on cue, by following a lure, then a hand target/signal, in a reasonably distracting environment (which also happens to be also a rewarding environment for her).

I think in her case, it was a matter of "learning how to learn", since she had very little, if any training for the first 6-12 months of her life, although it would appear she had a lot of socialisation. It has also been a matter of me learning which rewards "float her boat" at any given time... which I am still learning, and have also learnt recently, change as the environment change. If you asked me 4 years ago if she found praise alone motivating/rewarding, I would have said a resounding "no". However, I have discovered recently that praise is a huuuuge deal for her, particularly during a pets as therapy visit. Perhaps because it has been paired so frequently with food during the last four years, but I honestly think it is the environment and other people's attention which makes praise so effective in this situation. Or, perhaps I have finally learnt to relax some of my inhibitions and can give geniune praise, and not worry about sounding like a squeaky toy.

Sorry about the ramble - you may or may not get anything out of it. My final thought was that perhaps the boxer enjoyed the treat, but it wasn't motivating enough for him to work for???

[wuffles]

I have no doubt that there are dogs with brain damage and learning disabilities but it sure pays to look to the other end of the lead before applying those labels to a dog. A dog that's easily distracted, not used to working for reward or that has learned to tune the handler out could fail to offer a behaviour after 20 reps. Or as someone else says, maybe it doesn't give a toss.

I have to say, when I saw the question I thought "oh god, I'll hear that now in addition to the rest of the excuses".

He's a rescue, so he can't sit

He's a spitz, so he can't sit

He's learning disabled, so he can't sit. Yeesh.

Agree with PF that the greatest handicap most dogs have is their handler, and I include mine in that assessment

That is so true, Im sure other instructors will also agree. People come to obedience all the time and they say he won't, he won't he won't and one of the instructor takes the dog for a few minutes to do a demo and the dog is perfectly capable fo doing all those "he won'ts"

Or in the case of my dog, the instructor takes my dog for a demo and can't get him to do a damn thing Then the instructor says "oh, well... keep working at it..."

Seriously, one of my dogs just does not catch on to some training. I taught him some things easily with two or three repetitions including touch. But there are certain things he just does not get. I've been working on 'stand' with him for almost 3 years and although sometimes he seems like he's getting it, it's still about 50/50 as to whether he'll stay standing or sit/lie down/scratch himself. I have tried shaping with him, for example just leaving a box down and clicking any interaction with it... he can sniff it a few times and get a C&T each time... he exhibits the staring at the treat behaviour you mention... but he never connects interaction with the box with rewards. Yet with this same dog, I can get him to wait at the door, come in and sit on the mat, and offer each paw individually to have it dried :D corvus, is there scope for you to try teaching the dog you're describing something else just to see what happens?

My dog is far from a stupid dog, he is very smart in the sense that he does what works for him. He is intuitive and instinctive and weighs up everything before he does it.