Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[Souff]

If a dog which is terrified and refuses to walk on a lead turns up at an SPCA shelter 9 times out of 10 it's put down because it's ''unadoptable'' so Mr Worthless doesn't have any moral high ground there.

Equating human life (we don't operate on people then kill them) with a dog's life is AR thinking, dogs aren't little people!

So long as the animal doesn't suffer before or during the operations I see nothing wrong with using dogs (and probably cats) which were destined to be put down anyway. Sad fact of life is there aren't enough homes for all the dogs and cats churned out by careless and stupid people.

Well said Sandra777.

The critic of this University is a hypocrite of the highest order.

He was head of RSPCA for how many years?

The same organisation that has put hundreds of thousands of unwanted dogs to death, with nothing useful ever being learned before they died.

They ended up as fertiliser.

:D ;)

[john.davey.1960]

In my considered opinion this story is totally barbaric and proves how valueless Animal Ethics Committees are. Any practice should be done on dogs in veterinary surgeries with an extra year added to the course for supervisory training. Is it any wonder vets are eager to accept obscene animal management practices when they are desensitised to the suffering of animals while training.

I'm not going to dignify this sort of hyperbole with a response.

Shooting the messenger rather than addressing the issue, typical of those insensitive to companion animal welfare. Working with a responsible surgeon capable of lots of procedures will do more for vets than one look and kill session at uni. Computer programmes exist to overcome these distasteful situations. Study them and learn. The Dr Mengele excuse that they were going to die anyway just doesn't cut it anymore. How we treat companion animals is a foretaste of how we treat each other. Is that another refugee camp we are building?

[persephone]

Computer programmes exist to overcome these distasteful situations.

computer programs tho, do not give you that smell, or the feel of things, or the movement ..or the knowledge of actually being inside something living ...fantastic tools that they are ...

The Dr Mengele excuse that they were going to die anyway

Not sure why you'd want to mention him. :D

[Muttaburra]

In my considered opinion this story is totally barbaric and proves how valueless Animal Ethics Committees are. Any practice should be done on dogs in veterinary surgeries with an extra year added to the course for supervisory training. Is it any wonder vets are eager to accept obscene animal management practices when they are desensitised to the suffering of animals while training.

I'm not going to dignify this sort of hyperbole with a response.

Shooting the messenger rather than addressing the issue, typical of those insensitive to companion animal welfare. Working with a responsible surgeon capable of lots of procedures will do more for vets than one look and kill session at uni. Computer programmes exist to overcome these distasteful situations. Study them and learn. The Dr Mengele excuse that they were going to die anyway just doesn't cut it anymore. How we treat companion animals is a foretaste of how we treat each other. Is that another refugee camp we are building?

Thank you.

Don't forget Descartes.

Often when folks say "this is the best way and the way it was always done" means it is the cheapest, least expensive and nobody has bothered to think outside the square. Particularly bothersome about the OP's post is the report of a lack of supervision.

Supervised practical experience in real life situations, similar as to what is practiced in modern (human) Teaching Hospitals would be better, if perhaps more expensive and requiring a change in the Vet practice course.

[WoofnHoof]

In my considered opinion this story is totally barbaric and proves how valueless Animal Ethics Committees are. Any practice should be done on dogs in veterinary surgeries with an extra year added to the course for supervisory training. Is it any wonder vets are eager to accept obscene animal management practices when they are desensitised to the suffering of animals while training.

I'm not going to dignify this sort of hyperbole with a response.

Shooting the messenger rather than addressing the issue, typical of those insensitive to companion animal welfare. Working with a responsible surgeon capable of lots of procedures will do more for vets than one look and kill session at uni. Computer programmes exist to overcome these distasteful situations. Study them and learn. The Dr Mengele excuse that they were going to die anyway just doesn't cut it anymore. How we treat companion animals is a foretaste of how we treat each other. Is that another refugee camp we are building?

Thank you.

Don't forget Descartes.

Often when folks say "this is the best way and the way it was always done" means it is the cheapest, least expensive and nobody has bothered to think outside the square. Particularly bothersome about the OP's post is the report of a lack of supervision.

Supervised practical experience in real life situations, similar as to what is practiced in modern (human) Teaching Hospitals would be better, if perhaps more expensive and requiring a change in the Vet practice course.

I agree I think desensitization is a huge problem in universities, yes you have to be tough to be a vet but you don't have to be hard and I think the two often get mixed up.

[wings]

I am fine with the practice. There is no cruelty in it and a pointless death is suddenly able to be of value. The vets are not at fault here, it is the society that has created the wave of unwanted dogs that deserves the finger pointing.

I would be horrified to have any of my animals operated on by someone fresh out of school with no live animal experience, no matter who was observing them! The idea that someone could learn this from a computer program is ridiculous.

Thank-you vet people of the forum for explaining this issue from your own experiences. It is nice to see your thoughts on it and its ethics as well as how it affected your own training

[poodlefan]

Shooting the messenger rather than addressing the issue, typical of those insensitive to companion animal welfare. Working with a responsible surgeon capable of lots of procedures will do more for vets than one look and kill session at uni. Computer programmes exist to overcome these distasteful situations. Study them and learn. The Dr Mengele excuse that they were going to die anyway just doesn't cut it anymore. How we treat companion animals is a foretaste of how we treat each other. Is that another refugee camp we are building?

Whatever.. you just have to love it when we get down to the "I'm waaay more sensitive than you" level of argument.

While we're recommeding learning, I suggest YOU research Godwin's Law. ;)

Muttaburra:

Often when folks say "this is the best way and the way it was always done" means it is the cheapest, least expensive and nobody has bothered to think outside the square. Particularly bothersome about the OP's post is the report of a lack of supervision.

Who said that?

Edited May 7, 2011 by poodlefan

[Sheridan]

Shooting the messenger rather than addressing the issue, typical of those insensitive to companion animal welfare. Working with a responsible surgeon capable of lots of procedures will do more for vets than one look and kill session at uni. Computer programmes exist to overcome these distasteful situations. Study them and learn. The Dr Mengele excuse that they were going to die anyway just doesn't cut it anymore. How we treat companion animals is a foretaste of how we treat each other. Is that another refugee camp we are building?

Whatever.. you just have to love it when we get down to the "I'm waaay more sensitive than you" level of argument.

While we're recommeding learning, I suggest YOU research Godwin's Law. ;)

Someone just had to mention the Nazis.

[john.davey.1960]

Godwin's Law does not apply as it is merely a statement of Usenet Group dynamics, irrespective of the validity of the comparisons being made. Many people who don't understand it's meaning confuse it with a corollary to the law mentioned mainly by people ignorant of the topic in the first place and so quote it to to try and shut down discussion they can not cogently argue against. Many arguements use similes and metaphors to pronounce a point, especially a heinous one such as this. If the shoe fits!

[Keira&Phoenix]

Godwin's Law does not apply as it is merely a statement of Usenet Group dynamics, irrespective of the validity of the comparisons being made. Many people who don't understand it's meaning confuse it with a corollary to the law mentioned mainly by people ignorant of the topic in the first place and so quote it to to try and shut down discussion they can not cogently argue against. Many arguements use similes and metaphors to pronounce a point, especially a heinous one such as this. If the shoe fits!

Seriously? Dear doG

These dogs are all sentenced to death whether it is at the pound or at the uni vet hospital they WILL die because of the ignorant people out there breeding for money (puppy farmers, bybers and the plain ignorant). What is it that your find so "heinous" about them being used to teach the vets that will one day be looking about our animals? We have already heard they are treated well and some are even rehomed out of the uni's. Until you can stop the insane influx of homeless companion animals they will continue to be PTS, at least by being a learning tool they are giving some meaning to their deaths. How about you fix the problem of all the homeless dogs/cats etc and then concentrate on this one.

[stormie]

excerpt from the SMH article in the first post

Former student Lisa Elsner said: "Most dogs were absolutely petrified - so scared that the students couldn't walk them on a lead through the door of the hospital.

Shame on them.

Firstly, you have no idea if the person quoted was accurate in her assessment of the dogs, she may have been exaggerating for effect because she didn't like the situation.

Secondly, there are plenty of dogs that don't like walking into a new place with strange smells. I've got one dog that does that, shame on me for ever taking her out or to the vet?

the quote says MOST dogs

Can I just add that many dogs we take away from their owners to admit for surgery often act the same way. Some plant their feet when they realise they're not going back with their owners. Many need carrying. Even after a pre-med, some dogs still become quite nervous when you're giving them their GA.

So is that 'shame on us' too? Are we terrible people for operating on a dog and fixing its broken leg, because the dog was scared prior to surgery?

[brightonrock]

excerpt from the SMH article in the first post

Former student Lisa Elsner said: "Most dogs were absolutely petrified - so scared that the students couldn't walk them on a lead through the door of the hospital.

Shame on them.

Firstly, you have no idea if the person quoted was accurate in her assessment of the dogs, she may have been exaggerating for effect because she didn't like the situation.

Secondly, there are plenty of dogs that don't like walking into a new place with strange smells. I've got one dog that does that, shame on me for ever taking her out or to the vet?

the quote says MOST dogs

Can I just add that many dogs we take away from their owners to admit for surgery often act the same way. Some plant their feet when they realise they're not going back with their owners. Many need carrying. Even after a pre-med, some dogs still become quite nervous when you're giving them their GA.

So is that 'shame on us' too? Are we terrible people for operating on a dog and fixing its broken leg, because the dog was scared prior to surgery?

I can see I've hit a nerve.

It is disgusting that our society, in it's throwaway nature largely looks the other way when huge numbers of pet dogs and cats are euthanased.

I think it is shameful that a number of these condemned animals spend the last moments of their lives in fear and or panic.

The resistance of a sick animal is not what I am talking about. If they show confusion at least they are there for the good reason of being healed not killed.

If an animal is reacting badly it is a professional task to try and improve the situation, but that is not this topic.

[poodlefan]

I think it is shameful that a number of these condemned animals spend the last moments of their lives in fear and or panic.

What sort of last moments do you think they have in the kill room of a pound?

A dog that is not used to being inside or being handled by strangers cannot be calmed. I think its shameful that there will be dogs that have no trust in people because they've never learned it but that's a whole other issue.

[Are You Serious Jo]

excerpt from the SMH article in the first post

Former student Lisa Elsner said: "Most dogs were absolutely petrified - so scared that the students couldn't walk them on a lead through the door of the hospital.

Shame on them.

Firstly, you have no idea if the person quoted was accurate in her assessment of the dogs, she may have been exaggerating for effect because she didn't like the situation.

Secondly, there are plenty of dogs that don't like walking into a new place with strange smells. I've got one dog that does that, shame on me for ever taking her out or to the vet?

the quote says MOST dogs

Can I just add that many dogs we take away from their owners to admit for surgery often act the same way. Some plant their feet when they realise they're not going back with their owners. Many need carrying. Even after a pre-med, some dogs still become quite nervous when you're giving them their GA.

So is that 'shame on us' too? Are we terrible people for operating on a dog and fixing its broken leg, because the dog was scared prior to surgery?

I can see I've hit a nerve.

It is disgusting that our society, in it's throwaway nature largely looks the other way when huge numbers of pet dogs and cats are euthanased.

I think it is shameful that a number of these condemned animals spend the last moments of their lives in fear and or panic.

The resistance of a sick animal is not what I am talking about. If they show confusion at least they are there for the good reason of being healed not killed.

If an animal is reacting badly it is a professional task to try and improve the situation, but that is not this topic.

Sorry but you haven't hit a nerve, I'm just trying to highlight the obvious flaws in your argument that you cannot see. Do you realise these dogs are going to die anyway whether the vets learn from them or not? All protesting does is make their deaths even more meaningless. They still get euthed, don't you get that, but when they go instead of a grateful vet student giving them a cuddle while they go under they get PTS in a pound.

[Flick_Mac]

TD - I don't see how the dog would act any differently at the shelter before it is PTS? The ones I've seen are no different.

The dogs I've interacted with at uni (not for surgery pracs, but for anaesthesia and other pracs) have been 100% happy (read PULLING ON THE LEAD UNTIL THEY ARE BLUE) to come into a room wih 40 attention givers.

[brightonrock]

excerpt from the SMH article in the first post

Former student Lisa Elsner said: "Most dogs were absolutely petrified - so scared that the students couldn't walk them on a lead through the door of the hospital.

Shame on them.

Firstly, you have no idea if the person quoted was accurate in her assessment of the dogs, she may have been exaggerating for effect because she didn't like the situation.

Secondly, there are plenty of dogs that don't like walking into a new place with strange smells. I've got one dog that does that, shame on me for ever taking her out or to the vet?

the quote says MOST dogs

Can I just add that many dogs we take away from their owners to admit for surgery often act the same way. Some plant their feet when they realise they're not going back with their owners. Many need carrying. Even after a pre-med, some dogs still become quite nervous when you're giving them their GA.

So is that 'shame on us' too? Are we terrible people for operating on a dog and fixing its broken leg, because the dog was scared prior to surgery?

I can see I've hit a nerve.

It is disgusting that our society, in it's throwaway nature largely looks the other way when huge numbers of pet dogs and cats are euthanased.

I think it is shameful that a number of these condemned animals spend the last moments of their lives in fear and or panic.

The resistance of a sick animal is not what I am talking about. If they show confusion at least they are there for the good reason of being healed not killed.

If an animal is reacting badly it is a professional task to try and improve the situation, but that is not this topic.

Sorry but you haven't hit a nerve, I'm just trying to highlight the obvious flaws in your argument that you cannot see. Do you realise these dogs are going to die anyway whether the vets learn from them or not? All protesting does is make their deaths even more meaningless. They still get euthed, don't you get that, but when they go instead of a grateful vet student giving them a cuddle while they go under they get PTS in a pound.

Not any of that convinces me.

ALL animals being euthanased should not suffer in any way due to fear or panic. That is the goal we should accept. I know it is impossible 100% of the time, but making excuses is, well making excuses. Let vet students learn in real life situations working with the close supervision of a highly experienced vet. A new graduate should not be treated as an experienced professional, even if they have done non recovery surgery.

I don't think the deaths of the euthanased are meaningless if they are not used for a practice run in surgery. Their deaths are meaningful but in a shocking way. They are the surplus of many thoughtless people or acts. They are sentient, living animals. Their deaths show us how wrong we are to think we live in a good society that takes care of it's unwanted.

[Diva]

Their deaths show us how wrong we are to think we live in a good society that takes care of it's unwanted.

Huh? I think that I can safely say that I don't know anyone irl, over the age of puberty anyway, that thinks we live in a society that takes care of it's unwanted- human, canine,or other- although many do try. But of all the examples that come the mind, using these dogs in this way doesn't even rate. The fact that they are to be pts in the first place does.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Diva

[RottnBullies]

Sorry but you haven't hit a nerve, I'm just trying to highlight the obvious flaws in your argument that you cannot see. Do you realise these dogs are going to die anyway whether the vets learn from them or not? All protesting does is make their deaths even more meaningless. They still get euthed, don't you get that, but when they go instead of a grateful vet student giving them a cuddle while they go under they get PTS in a pound.

I guess If you keep telling yourself this It seems to make It more acceptable!, I don't think this Is a good argument for the In favor group

[Are You Serious Jo]

Sorry but you haven't hit a nerve, I'm just trying to highlight the obvious flaws in your argument that you cannot see. Do you realise these dogs are going to die anyway whether the vets learn from them or not? All protesting does is make their deaths even more meaningless. They still get euthed, don't you get that, but when they go instead of a grateful vet student giving them a cuddle while they go under they get PTS in a pound.

I guess If you keep telling yourself this It seems to make It more acceptable!, I don't think this Is a good argument for the In favor group

So what is your alternative for the dogs that have no homes, do we drop them all at your place? Are one of this that think this is cruel in any way? I keep asking people who claim it causes suffering but none of them can answer me about the suffering part.

I'll spell it out again. If a dog is going to be PTS anyway then I cannot see what is wrong with using the body. They are not being PTS especially for the vets. Of course I hate the idea that they have no homes in the first place, but since they are being PTS then make the best of it. What is your alternative to the thousands of dogs being PTS daily?

If you want to blame someone then dish it out to the owners who put the dogs in there in the first place.

[Sheridan]

Godwin's Law does not apply as it is merely a statement of Usenet Group dynamics, irrespective of the validity of the comparisons being made. Many people who don't understand it's meaning confuse it with a corollary to the law mentioned mainly by people ignorant of the topic in the first place and so quote it to to try and shut down discussion they can not cogently argue against. Many arguements use similes and metaphors to pronounce a point, especially a heinous one such as this. If the shoe fits!

So, john.davey.1960, your name wasn't GavinM in a previous incarnation, was it? I thought the arguments and the style of writing reminded me of someone.

I can see I've hit a nerve.

It is disgusting that our society, in it's throwaway nature largely looks the other way when huge numbers of pet dogs and cats are euthanased.

I think it is shameful that a number of these condemned animals spend the last moments of their lives in fear and or panic.

The resistance of a sick animal is not what I am talking about. If they show confusion at least they are there for the good reason of being healed not killed.

If an animal is reacting badly it is a professional task to try and improve the situation, but that is not this topic.

Presumably, you've never had a dog scared to go to the vet. I've not had one myself; indeed, I've had dogs drag me into the surgery, treating a vet visit as a grand treat. I have, however, observed dogs utterly terrified at a vet surgery, who scream as soon as a vet touches them. Should we not take these dogs to the vet on the grounds that they're terrified?

Edited May 7, 2011 by Sheridan