Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Without Health Issues.

[Rysup]

Yesterday I groomed a lovely Cavalier called Chelsey, who just celebrated her 14th birthday. Ive been doing her a while. She is so fit and healthy, its impressive! Her owner was telling me her heart is still a grade 1 (the lowest she said) which I thought was simply fabulous given her age. She gets walked daily, has no problems at all, apart from being a little deaf.

Do your homework and you can always find a healthy line!

[dancinbcs]

It really is up to the breed clubs to continually educate their members about health issues and genetics in their breed. CC seminars on genetics do create some interest but most people take a lot longer to grasp the concepts involved. Some otherwise intelligent people just never get it despite trying but most do eventually understand. We spent over a decade educating the Border Collie breeders about how DNA testing would work while we getting tests developed. As a result most registered breeders just accepted and understood the tests as soon as they were available.

There is no such thing as a genetically perfect animal. All living creatures have faulty and fatal genes but we are more likely to find out what they are in the closed genetics of purebred animals. When prominent animals influence a breed, you get their genes, both good and bad, increased in the population. Eventually you will find out what faulty genes they carried because it will show up as a breed problem but it might take 20-30 years.

Being a dedicated breeder means working around each problem as it arises. Those that don't care just breed on regardless and this is where you get most genetically affected animals. Breeding unregistered purebreds is just asking for trouble if you cannot trace problems through pedigrees.Even with the most dedicated breeder though, the more litters you breed the more genetic problems you will turn up as it is all a numbers game. Dedicated breeders should be happy to discuss what health problems they have encountered and what they did to address those problems. Anyone who says their dogs will never suffer from a genetic problem is lying or has no idea what they are doing.

To see what happens when BYB decide to just breed purebred unregistered dogs, have a look at the thread about the Sick Border Collie Puppy in the Puppy section here on DOL. I'm sure the same thing is happening with other breeds like Cavs with their particular health issues. We are lucky with BCs that we now have DNA tests to avoid breeding 3 major problems but we still have other less common issues that are currently being researched and in the mean time breeders are workign their way around them.

[Sheridan]

The best thing someone who wants a puppy can do is educate themselves about the health issues in their breed of choice. You don't need to know genetics in depth, you just need to know enough to ask the right questions and know if the answers you're getting are rubbish.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I recently desexed a 16 month old Cav with a grade 2 murmur. Her patents were both heart clear at 8 years of age. So well above the International Standard.

The father is still heart clear at 9 and last month mother was diagnosed with a murmur.

Grandma and great grandma diagnosed at 12.

[Jed]

I recently desexed a 16 month old Cav with a grade 2 murmur. Her patents were both heart clear at 8 years of age. So well above the International Standard.

The father is still heart clear at 9 and last month mother was diagnosed with a murmur.

Grandma and great grandma diagnosed at 12.

So disheartening, I feel for you. Of course, if you never heart checked the dogs, you wouldn't know, and could and would breed on regardless!! (Like those damn puppy farmers)

I do wish the scientists would find the gene or genes responsible for this wretched problem. Life would be so much easier.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Jed

[SupaDupa Mini Cooper]

This is the MVD Breeding Protocol set up as a guideline for breeders in the United States. Apparently the main reason it is not working is because of breeders not following it.

Every breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniel should be examined annually by a board certified veterinary cardiologist.

Do not breed any Cavalier who is diagnosed with an MVD murmur under the age of 5 years.

Do not breed any CKCS before age 2.5 years.

Do not breed any Cavalier under the age of 5 years, unless its parents' hearts were free of MVD murmurs by age 5 years

It's not a big ask.

It's not rocket science.

This might be a bit obvious, but doesn't the second point override the third? How can you breed before 5 years of age if they have to be MVD tested until 5 and be clear? I am not a breeder (only a first time dog owner) but is there a maximum age that a dog should have it's first litter by, and is there an age at which it is best to stop breeding at? For a dog, 5 years seems like a long time to wait to have a litter.

Part of me wonders how much human intervention has affected certain breeds - in most species it is expected there will be genetic factors that will affect some of the offspring, call it 'natural selection' or genetics or mutations or whatever. Not all offspring will be healthy, live to an old age and be extremely fertile and produce vigorous offspring themselves. To expect perfection is not a reality. For breeders to expect perfection is not a reality. For buyers to expect perfection is not a reality. I know that there has been a lot of good done to eradicate nasty genetics but the fact is, there are genes present in any species or breed that could potentially mutate or recessive genes that may not be "shown" but are being passed on and will in the future generations be "shown" when 2 recessive parents are mated. The reason inbreeding creates problems is that it is more likely that recessive genes end up being "shown" and mated together and carried on to offspring (like the "royals" with haemophilia in times past). Unless you can map the 2 parent's genomes and know every single possible genetic outcome of breeding them you have to take what the luck of the draw is. Breeders can do their best to predict, but none can give any sort of guarantees.

Personally, I used a number of website "what breed suits me" quizzes to make a short-list of possibilities from there I did some research and decided that despite a possible short lifespan (compared with other breeds) and possible illness, that the CKCS was indeed the "perfect" breed for us. I think you firstly need to decide the best breed for your circumstances and be prepared for what that breed may entail - health-wise or other, and if you aren't prepared for that then look at another breed.

[asal]

This is the MVD Breeding Protocol set up as a guideline for breeders in the United States. Apparently the main reason it is not working is because of breeders not following it.

Every breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniel should be examined annually by a board certified veterinary cardiologist.

Do not breed any Cavalier who is diagnosed with an MVD murmur under the age of 5 years.

Do not breed any CKCS before age 2.5 years.

Do not breed any Cavalier under the age of 5 years, unless its parents' hearts were free of MVD murmurs by age 5 years

It's not a big ask.

It's not rocket science.

This might be a bit obvious, but doesn't the second point override the third? How can you breed before 5 years of age if they have to be MVD tested until 5 and be clear? I am not a breeder (only a first time dog owner) but is there a maximum age that a dog should have it's first litter by, and is there an age at which it is best to stop breeding at? For a dog, 5 years seems like a long time to wait to have a litter.

Part of me wonders how much human intervention has affected certain breeds - in most species it is expected there will be genetic factors that will affect some of the offspring, call it 'natural selection' or genetics or mutations or whatever. Not all offspring will be healthy, live to an old age and be extremely fertile and produce vigorous offspring themselves. To expect perfection is not a reality. For breeders to expect perfection is not a reality. For buyers to expect perfection is not a reality. I know that there has been a lot of good done to eradicate nasty genetics but the fact is, there are genes present in any species or breed that could potentially mutate or recessive genes that may not be "shown" but are being passed on and will in the future generations be "shown" when 2 recessive parents are mated. The reason inbreeding creates problems is that it is more likely that recessive genes end up being "shown" and mated together and carried on to offspring (like the "royals" with haemophilia in times past). Unless you can map the 2 parent's genomes and know every single possible genetic outcome of breeding them you have to take what the luck of the draw is. Breeders can do their best to predict, but none can give any sort of guarantees.

Personally, I used a number of website "what breed suits me" quizzes to make a short-list of possibilities from there I did some research and decided that despite a possible short lifespan (compared with other breeds) and possible illness, that the CKCS was indeed the "perfect" breed for us. I think you firstly need to decide the best breed for your circumstances and be prepared for what that breed may entail - health-wise or other, and if you aren't prepared for that then look at another breed.

HO my!

THANK you soo much.

I was beginning to think sanity and common sense had dissappeared where dogs were concerned.

maybe there might be hope?

you are right. leaving a bitch to 5 before being bred, quite a percentage will have been desexed due to pymetra (unterine infection) as my vet explained, dogs were not evolved to go years without being in pup. the ideal is the bitch have her puppies young and desexed to live out her old age in comfort.

now its all back to front. the older the mother the higher the incidence of deformed eggs.

just look at the percentage of babies born with downes in the human race, dogs have their own version too. aging maternal eggs mean more damaged eggs fertalized and more problems than babies born to mums with young healthier eggs.

but hey maybe puppies born with doggie downs are preferable ?

remember the downs damaged eggs pass on the now damaged chromosones down through the generations so what wasnt in the parents is now in the descendants. the older the parents the more chance of mutations in the offspring due to the advanced age of the mother.

but hey our representatives on the boards of the canine bodies wont be mentioning that will they?

watched the people being interviewed in that doco "pedigree dogs exposed" as the repesentatives of their canine boards was awful to see.

our politicions know they dont know the facts when facing an interview so they get their researchers to put it together so they dont look as lost as the dog worlds representatives did.

if you run for office and front a press confernece, find out your facts first instead of end up looking silly and selling yourself and the breeds out.

they took the easy way out and banned related breedings without explaining that inbreeding or line cannot put in a gene that wasnt already there.

aged maternal eggs can and do exactly that, but now we are going to be encouraged to do exactly what?

only use aged bitches, by so doing may be free of mitral valve but? .....as a by prodoct getting a higher percentage of puppies born with damaged transmissable altered dna, how many other conditions besides mongolalism (downes syndrome) is added to the gene pool by this route?

like what the?

just look up the concerns being voiced about the increasing problems linked to our own populations tendancy to older and older mums having their first child.

same applies to all species.

Edited July 23, 2012 by asal

[dogsaremyworld]

I have been owned by Cavaliers for over 20 years...my Cavs have lived long and healthy lives...I recently lost my special dog at the age of 12 years and 11 months...she had a stroke (geriatric murmur at 12 sp). Her Mother died at the age of 13 years one month from Cancer (clear heart sp)and her Mother died in her sleep at 15 years from causes unknown (clear heart Vet). I also have a male who will be 12 next month...he developed a murmur at age 7, aside from being a skinny old man he is active and happy. There are issues that can affect all mammals, how many people over the age of 60 do you know who are not on any medication? Think about that for a moment.... as 10 in dogs is about equal to 65 in humans. The International Protocol for MVD is clear at five. As a mere breeder I try to have as healthy a bloodline as I possibly can, sometimes Mother Nature takes a hand and deals some cruel blows....we cannot control that, but we can control our the choice of dogs in our breeding programmes. There are healthy Cavaliers out there, you need to look in the right places :)

Please tell me where too look!?! I KNOW there are healthy Cavaliers out there that would be FANTASTIC in my breeding programme, the problem is those quality breeders will not reply my emails, or if they do, I never hear back from them when litters are born. I know I am not alone in this. Maybe in the 'pet' world it is easier, but when you are trying to establish a breeding programme you need healthy, well constructed bitches. And they are rare to be able to obtain.

[Jed]

This is the MVD Breeding Protocol set up as a guideline for breeders in the United States. Apparently the main reason it is not working is because of breeders not following it.

Every breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniel should be examined annually by a board certified veterinary cardiologist.

Do not breed any Cavalier who is diagnosed with an MVD murmur under the age of 5 years.

Do not breed any CKCS before age 2.5 years.

Do not breed any Cavalier under the age of 5 years, unless its parents' hearts were free of MVD murmurs by age 5 years

It's not a big ask.

It's not rocket science.

The above does make sense. I will rephrase it

If any Cavalier develops a murmur before s/he reaches 5 years do not breed with him or her.

If the parents of the Cavalier had clear hearts at 5 years (ie, no MVD murmurs), it should be safe to breed the cavalier before s/he reaches 5 years of age. If the parents' hearts were not clear (or not checked), you should not breed the Cavalier before s/he reaches 5 years

Hope that clarifies it.

A good vet with a decent stethoscope can diagnose a murmur.

[asal]

I have been owned by Cavaliers for over 20 years...my Cavs have lived long and healthy lives...I recently lost my special dog at the age of 12 years and 11 months...she had a stroke (geriatric murmur at 12 sp). Her Mother died at the age of 13 years one month from Cancer (clear heart sp)and her Mother died in her sleep at 15 years from causes unknown (clear heart Vet). I also have a male who will be 12 next month...he developed a murmur at age 7, aside from being a skinny old man he is active and happy. There are issues that can affect all mammals, how many people over the age of 60 do you know who are not on any medication? Think about that for a moment.... as 10 in dogs is about equal to 65 in humans. The International Protocol for MVD is clear at five. As a mere breeder I try to have as healthy a bloodline as I possibly can, sometimes Mother Nature takes a hand and deals some cruel blows....we cannot control that, but we can control our the choice of dogs in our breeding programmes. There are healthy Cavaliers out there, you need to look in the right places :)

Please tell me where too look!?! I KNOW there are healthy Cavaliers out there that would be FANTASTIC in my breeding programme, the problem is those quality breeders will not reply my emails, or if they do, I never hear back from them when litters are born. I know I am not alone in this. Maybe in the 'pet' world it is easier, but when you are trying to establish a breeding programme you need healthy, well constructed bitches. And they are rare to be able to obtain.

cant help you, its the new age now, if you going to be seen to be "ethical" your kennels are a closed shop.

so if anyone is willing to sell you a pup on main they will immediately become one of the "unethical " and fair game for attack .

my dog stringy paid almost with his life because I chose not to show and as a result was marked for elimination by our ho so ethical showie ranks.

as letter from the then minister for agriculture Richard Amery says.

"Thank you for your letter of 30 April 2001 regarding the seizure of your dog 'Stringy"' by the RSPCA. This whole incident has clearly been distressing for you. However , it would seem that the appeaance of your dog breeding establishment and several of your animals attracted the attention of at leaast one other breeder who was concerned about the rputation of the industry, the conduct of your business and the welfare of some of your dogs.

The RSPCA is obliged to investigate genuine complaints regarding animal welfare and to pursue what they believe"

ill put the rest later have to go out.

the gist is the rspca were used to find something anything to charge me so i could be kicked out of the membership of the canine council.

unfortunately for their brief 21 needle inseertions, torn trachea doing an op he didnt need nor could be done by any vet without the owers permission failed to find them anything to charge me for so brief not accomplished.

so you see dont anger the precious or your dogs will pay even if you dont.

nice eh?

its not just savage dogs that are dangerous, its the even more savage showies

so just what are the implications of that letter?

1. the RSPCA is often used to persecute anyone the showies dont like.

2. as in the case of my dog. "If you conduct your business as outlined in the Code of Practice for dog breeding establishments you will have nothing to fear from further visits from RSPCA inspectors" is a load of lies.

there was not one single breech of said code yet he was taken and tested for conditions he did not have yet I had to pay them for. They made over $500 dollars from that convenient call.

3. by law I am supposed to be told the nature of the complaint at the first visit. Inspector Donnely refused to disclose anything. just that i would be advised by mail. I never was.

4. by law i am supposed to have 2 weeks to rectify any thing needing to be done. Inspector Donnely refused to disclose anything, advised i would receive a letter by mail. I never did.

5. he returned two weeks later and stole my dog, then cited to Richard Amery the dog was seized because i had not had the dog taken for verterinary appraisal.

6. when I pointed these breeches of law to Ricard amery he replied in that letter i am quoting "I do not feel that the RSCPA HAS ACTED OUTSIDE THE LAW OR UNREASONABLY IN THIS MATTER" (MY CAPITALS.) so beware folks there is no appeal and still isnt.

Edited July 23, 2012 by asal

[asal]

Now

Who was it wondeering why you cant find main register puppies and members are not renewing?

and how do u find those with healthy parents

of any breed let alone the adorable cavalier?

my friends thought they would help and showed some of mine for me and ok they became champions in less than a year. but what did that really achieve?

all it really did was delay the 'precious ethicals' some championship points for their darlings for that year, didt it?

didnt make my dogs any better than I already knew they were surely?

Edited July 23, 2012 by asal

[asal]

This is the MVD Breeding Protocol set up as a guideline for breeders in the United States. Apparently the main reason it is not working is because of breeders not following it.

Every breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniel should be examined annually by a board certified veterinary cardiologist.

Do not breed any Cavalier who is diagnosed with an MVD murmur under the age of 5 years.

Do not breed any CKCS before age 2.5 years.

Do not breed any Cavalier under the age of 5 years, unless its parents' hearts were free of MVD murmurs by age 5 years

It's not a big ask.

It's not rocket science.

This might be a bit obvious, but doesn't the second point override the third? How can you breed before 5 years of age if they have to be MVD tested until 5 and be clear? I am not a breeder (only a first time dog owner) but is there a maximum age that a dog should have it's first litter by, and is there an age at which it is best to stop breeding at? For a dog, 5 years seems like a long time to wait to have a litter.

Part of me wonders how much human intervention has affected certain breeds - in most species it is expected there will be genetic factors that will affect some of the offspring, call it 'natural selection' or genetics or mutations or whatever. Not all offspring will be healthy, live to an old age and be extremely fertile and produce vigorous offspring themselves. To expect perfection is not a reality. For breeders to expect perfection is not a reality. For buyers to expect perfection is not a reality. I know that there has been a lot of good done to eradicate nasty genetics but the fact is, there are genes present in any species or breed that could potentially mutate or recessive genes that may not be "shown" but are being passed on and will in the future generations be "shown" when 2 recessive parents are mated. The reason inbreeding creates problems is that it is more likely that recessive genes end up being "shown" and mated together and carried on to offspring (like the "royals" with haemophilia in times past). Unless you can map the 2 parent's genomes and know every single possible genetic outcome of breeding them you have to take what the luck of the draw is. Breeders can do their best to predict, but none can give any sort of guarantees.

Personally, I used a number of website "what breed suits me" quizzes to make a short-list of possibilities from there I did some research and decided that despite a possible short lifespan (compared with other breeds) and possible illness, that the CKCS was indeed the "perfect" breed for us. I think you firstly need to decide the best breed for your circumstances and be prepared for what that breed may entail - health-wise or other, and if you aren't prepared for that then look at another breed.

Your observations are just so sensible you make me hope maybe there might be a future.

but how to get this message back out there, instead of expecting the impossible from a breeder and deamonising them when the obvious does occur.

that is why the phrase exists "put the best to the best and hope for the best"

thats reality.

as you so well said.

The other downer to potential puppy buyers is being constantly told by the self styled "precious ethicals" to ask. "do you show" and cross of the list any breeder, even though a member with registered dogs as a puppy farmer.

there is nothing. be it NSW, VIC, QLD, TAS, SA, WA or NT. (NOT yet anyway) in the membership rules of any state canine council, that state to own and breed your main registered dogs they MUST be shown.

Yet this is what the self labled "ethicals" are labeling those who choose not to show as "unethical" and what some for decades have used as the reason to justify using the RSPCA (and only too happy to oblidge to the best of thir abilty, as I discovered with Inspector Donnelly) to persecute those who do not agree with them or end up on the black list for whatever reasons, even those who do show,have found themselves on the 'to be purged for the good of the breed list'.

nice world the dog show fraternity.

there is a way, go back to the bad old days of the 50's and early 70's when everyone worked together and encouraged newbies and each other, freely exchanging bloodlines for the good of the breed instead of just 'their' kennel.

even those with all the tests done and proven will not release any but a limit register pup these days, or face the music.

one lady I met does sell on main register, the catch being the puppies are already desexed before they go.

not much improvement for future generations there but they are great pups and do come with a lifetime guarantee, well for as long as she is a member anyway.

LOL

Edited July 23, 2012 by asal

[Steve]

Would you tell people how many of the dogs you bred over the years had genetic conditions despite your conscientious dedication?

Who are you, and why would I do that?

In fact, your question just doesn't seem to fit the original intent of your first post, so... Who are you? What is your intent with this thread? It becomes clearer with every post.

In answer to your question: Not many. My vet often thinks I'm seeing the other vet in town. He comments on how "robust" my newborns are, then later the young pups, how "rock solid" their patellae are; he'll check this and that knowing there's no point because it's all okay. The hip scores will come back lower than breed average. Hearts are good into old age, when the dogs will die at about age 13 or 14.

BTW, heart clear until 7 can be cause for celebration. If the murmur is detected at 7 years, the dog may have another 7 or 8 years left yet. It may not even die from the heart condition. Stop scaremongering. Your slip is showing.

You're starting to sound a little paranoid. It was a genuine question which fits exactly with the intent of my original post; which was to find out whether it was possible to really safeguard against genetic disease when purchasing a Cav and to understand the extent to which genetic illness is present within the breed.

The reason I asked you if you would disclose that information is because I'm genuinely curious as to what your intepretation of a healthy breed is. I also don't understand why you would find that question offensive. It's breeders not disclosing information about genetic issues they've had that leaves me resorting to a public forum to really understand the extent of the health problems within the breed. I don't think genetic issues are really going to be able to be remedied unless we become more transparent and conversant about them.

Secretly, what I really wanted you to say was "I've had none in my lines". Then I would investigate you as a potential breeder from whom to purchase a puppy in the future. Though, I am glad that you haven't had many problems. It gives me hope.

I understand people are defensive in the wake of 'those' documentaries, but I really don't think that attitude helps. I don't see why breeders can't just admit there are issues within a breed and that they're doing everything they can to rectify them without getting angry about it or feeling vilified. Maybe I'm missing something from the other side of the fence here.

I don't think a heart murmur at any age is a cause for celebration. Sure seven is better than three, but at any age it's not ideal.

But sometimes having it before in your lines may be a good thing for today. If a breeder has seen it before and made moves to eliminate it surely that's better than taking pot luck and hoping that because something hasnt shown so far that it wont show. Sooner or later something shows. Some of those things are preventable some are not .My point is asking a breeder if they have ever seen it before in any dogs they bred tells you about zilch especially if hey only have a litter a year or if they are new to the game, dont keep in contact with puppy buyers etc. This will take you nowhere. Id prefer to hear someone say Ive seen it and this is what Ive done to try and be sure I never see it again.

Every breed, every dog may potentially get sick , with purebreds you get a bit of a head start because you know what to look for, what to work against and for and what to test for. Look for a breeder who has lots of healthy older dogs in their back yard - this will tell you more than any list of questions will.

[Gretel]

One of the 'selling points' some breeders use is the "there's none of that in my lines." Just cause they say it doesn't make it true...

[LizT]

This is the MVD Breeding Protocol set up as a guideline for breeders in the United States. Apparently the main reason it is not working is because of breeders not following it.

Every breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniel should be examined annually by a board certified veterinary cardiologist.

Do not breed any Cavalier who is diagnosed with an MVD murmur under the age of 5 years.

Do not breed any CKCS before age 2.5 years.

Do not breed any Cavalier under the age of 5 years, unless its parents' hearts were free of MVD murmurs by age 5 years

It's not a big ask.

It's not rocket science.

The above does make sense. I will rephrase it

If any Cavalier develops a murmur before s/he reaches 5 years do not breed with him or her.

If the parents of the Cavalier had clear hearts at 5 years (ie, no MVD murmurs), it should be safe to breed the cavalier before s/he reaches 5 years of age. If the parents' hearts were not clear (or not checked), you should not breed the Cavalier before s/he reaches 5 years

Hope that clarifies it.

A good vet with a decent stethoscope can diagnose a murmur.

Exactly, my interpretation is that I have a bitch who will turn 5 this October. She has had one litter at 3 years of age, I kept one bitch from that litter. If my older bitch continues to be heart clear when she turns five later this year AND her daughter at 2.5 years is also heart clear I will breed the daughter using a male OVER 5 who is still heart clear.

E.T.A. The older bitch was bred to a male over 5 still heart clear, and both her parents were over 5 and heart clear at that time.

Edited July 23, 2012 by LizT

[Monteba]

I know quite a few folk who sell on main register not willy nilly but they certainly do to the right homes as do I

They certainly arent villified as you have depicted ( though I understand you are speaking from your own experience)

Would I put one out on main to a non show home yes but it would have to be to a home where a dog sport of some sort was being done I wouldnt sell on main just for someone to breed with

I also wouldnt sell on main to someone who didnt believe in my same ideologies why would I .

[asal]

Realised after a lot of thinking about the topic, if you want the best chance of a healthy pup forget asking does the breeder show.

ask are the parents and grandparents checked and have certificates or vet reports to prove it.

regarless of whether the breeder has registered parents and grandparents or simply unpapered purebreds.

if the breeder cant find a sale for puppys from unchecked and/or un dna'ed parents then they wont be breeding another litter too often would they.

as for the kennels who are dead ends , so what, even if the numbers of registered dogs drops to unstainable levels. I realised thats exactly what happened to the Stumpy Tailed Cattledog and the registry began a grading up scheme from the available unregistered Stumpies. so the breed is back on track anyway (by the time the grading up scheme was implemented there was only one registered breeder left in the country so all wont be lost after all.

they will just embrace the remining entire purebreds that fit the standard back into a grading up scheme anyway.

why didnt i remember that before.. no doom for breeds at all that drop too far in registered numbers...

[asal]

forgot as another said, look for breeders with old dogs, my sisters dogs grandmum and great grand mum were still with their breeder when they were born and were 11 and 13.

miffie lived to 15 and her sisters, champagne to 13, tequila to 14, they did have a 4th sister tiki died only 3, who was run over by a neighbour, who as he said, "I speeded up, but she didnt get out of the way"

Unfortunatly I had to watch it unfold as I ran towards her calling her to come back, I saw him run her down too terrified to turn off the drive and get out of the way of his car, when he gunned the motor she lay down and was killed by the passenger wheels. the side gate had been accidently left open and she had ran out and along his driveway as he was leaving for work, he wasnt even running late. That was the hardest to come to terms with.

apparently, to stop long enough to let me pick her up wasnt an option. He was my family doctor till that day. To me if you dont have enough humanity to let her live what do you think of your patients?

Edited July 23, 2012 by asal

[asal]

Car sense and self preservation from same are two genes we need dna selection testing found soon as possible for, that would be wonderfull,

I suspect cars account for more than every other cause of death with this darling dogs. It should be noted on every puppy before purchase, no fence no sale.

as for gates maybe all of them should have spring closures just in case they dont latch properly

[OSoSwift]

One of the 'selling points' some breeders use is the "there's none of that in my lines." Just cause they say it doesn't make it true...

As I learnt the hard way. It wasn't there because they hadn't looked. Once they started dropping dead it was a bit late!