Becoming A Judge

[Salukifan]

Iv'e "been in the breed" for about 6 years and by "being in the breed" I mean owning these dogs. Only attending shows for 2 and never actually getting in the ring myself. I am being open and honest and the only thing I am trying to do is understand the judging system.

No wonder the dog show world is literally (going to the dogs) bunch of old ladies doing their bitching all weekend instead of mentoring young people that want to get involved (and yes I have great mentors).

Thanks to those of you that made valid points.

Charming - yep you've got "future show ring judge" written all over you :laugh: If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest a major attitude adjustment, starting right now.

Frankly you'll get a much better understanding of the system you're so highly critical of by making yourself part of it than by making snakey and unjustified comments about participants. You want to get involved? Prove it. Seems to be you're a bit light on in that department at the moment . 2 dog shows and you've never set foot in the ring.. yep, that's real "involvement".

Seriously, put your money where your mouth is and learn how to show your dogs. Old ladies seem to manage to do it every day. :)

And remember they'll be judged by the standard in this country, not that in the USA.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Rebanne]

OMG you take the cake, you have never even set foot in the ring but you know it all.

Keyboard warrior, armchair expert. Get in and do the hard yards and come back in 10 years time and ask the question.

And BTW there are more breeds then dobes in Group 6, you have to learn all about them too.

[SparkyTansy]

Owning the breed, and learning about breeds and breed standards and how to select a prospective puppy and understanding genetics and what and how YOUR lines produce are completely different things. I could argue with you that I've been in my breed for 20 years, however in truth I've only been showing that breed for 6 years, and learning all there is to learn about the lines of my current breed for as long as that.. I've been showing for around 10 years now (started in a different breed). There is no way in heck and hell I think I'd be worthy to judge other peoples dogs whether I know the breed standard, my perceptions of what I think the breed should look like etc. I've bred a litter, and I have got at least 2 or more generations planned for my breeding program, which I know are open to changing as well as knowing that I will be getting plenty of advice from my breed mentors in the meantime.

I'd like to see not only teh current pre-requisites for judges, but also a clear understanding, if not a course, on anatomy, movement, genetics etc. with aspiring judges showing a clear understanding and desire to learn about those things and more. Too many people I speak to know plenty about their own breed, but can't apply basics to other breeds, except for their interpretation of the breed standard if they've studied it.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'd like to see not only teh current pre-requisites for judges, but also a clear understanding, if not a course, on anatomy, movement, genetics etc. with aspiring judges showing a clear understanding and desire to learn about those things and more. Too many people I speak to know plenty about their own breed, but can't apply basics to other breeds, except for their interpretation of the breed standard if they've studied it.

Don't know about WA but in NSW you have to pass two exams on these very things and if you live in Sydney you have to show up to a certain percentage of lectures too.

[Bjelkier]

And hey yeah I havent been in the breed long but the attitude at shows is one reason young people come and go, I am only 23 I have years and years to learn and I want to learn and yet youre so quick to judge my character. I dont have a bad attitude at all please point out where I have been rude or not open to suggestions?

No wonder the dog show world is literally (going to the dogs) bunch of old ladies doing their bitching all weekend instead of mentoring young people that want to get involved (and yes I have great mentors).

Thanks to those of you that made valid points.

That doesn't read like someone with a good attitude to me.

I'm only a few years older then yourself and I've just bred my first litter. I've been in my chosen breed for around the same amount of time but I have been involved with show dogs for longer then that and one day I would like to become a judge but I don't think I am anywhere near ready to get out in that ring and start judging other peoples breeding at the moment.

As others have said, get in there and do the hard work yourself. I don't think anyone would want the opinion of a judge who has never been in there and done it themselves.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Bjelkier

[Salukifan]

Dobecrazy:

HOW breeding would make you a better judge?

I've already said I dont' think its the be all and end all of prerequistes but lets see:

To successfuly breed you'd have to evaluate your bitch, examine her bloodlines and make a determination on a suitable sire for the litter. In my breed that generally involves quite a bit of pedigree research and analysis of what various matings might produce.

Then you'll be evaluating the result of the mating and selecting the show prospects you'll have to title. That will involve both structural and temperament assessment and if you get it wrong, you have to start over again. What you see at 8 weeks is indicative of the adult dog but no guarantee that you'll get a dog you can title.

Don't you think that might give you a greater awareness of the components of the breed standard than simply "owning the breed"?

Lets turn the situation around. What do you think that you'd bring to the table as a future judge if you've never shown or bred a dog? What kind of evaluations would you be performing on the relative merits of the dogs out there if you don't enter the ring? Will you ever, as most exhibitors do, watch the judging and look for the whys and wherefores of what won and what lost. Can you learn to balance the good and bad points of dogs other than your own?

It is possible to become very conversant with the standard and with gait analysis and with puppy evaluation without breeding but how is what you're doing now preparing you in that regard??

You don't like "bowling ball fronts". Can you describe in canine structure terms why you don't like them and the impact that they have on the dog's form and function?

Edited September 6, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Bisart Dobes]

Because there are already people breeding the "correct" dog (and if we are talking about my breed, the Dobermann, there are definitely people doing it right), so why should I HAVE to do it? Breeding is hard work, its blood sweat and tears..why should I contribute to the tons of homeless dogs a year just to judge the correctness of a dog that I (by the time my 10 years is up, would have been showing the entire time and LEARNING about in the judging program)?

I will continue to show my dogs and title them and maybe in about 8 or so years they will have changed the prerequisites (or after the banning of docking and now lame oversized dogs, I wont want to own a Dobe any more, whichever comes first).

Wow do that many well bred Dobes end up in rescue?!?!? For most breeds of dog there is a high demand for quality healthy dogs and you tend to find not many end up in rescue or contributing to BYB problems.

No RV they don't - the majority of Dobe breeders take great care of where they place their dogs and the majority take rehome dogs back or assist in rehoming if thats not possible. And there is generally a very high demand for puppies - our next litter is majority sold and not advertised, plus we have people waiting for a litter planned in 18 mths - once people have a dobe they are dobe people for life and they are the majority of our puppy buyers presently.

[RallyValley]

Because there are already people breeding the "correct" dog (and if we are talking about my breed, the Dobermann, there are definitely people doing it right), so why should I HAVE to do it? Breeding is hard work, its blood sweat and tears..why should I contribute to the tons of homeless dogs a year just to judge the correctness of a dog that I (by the time my 10 years is up, would have been showing the entire time and LEARNING about in the judging program)?

I will continue to show my dogs and title them and maybe in about 8 or so years they will have changed the prerequisites (or after the banning of docking and now lame oversized dogs, I wont want to own a Dobe any more, whichever comes first).

Wow do that many well bred Dobes end up in rescue?!?!? For most breeds of dog there is a high demand for quality healthy dogs and you tend to find not many end up in rescue or contributing to BYB problems.

No RV they don't - the majority of Dobe breeders take great care of where they place their dogs and the majority take rehome dogs back or assist in rehoming if thats not possible. And there is generally a very high demand for puppies - our next litter is majority sold and not advertised, plus we have people waiting for a litter planned in 18 mths - once people have a dobe they are dobe people for life and they are the majority of our puppy buyers presently.

I thought that might be the case Bisart! I have never really heard of Dobes coming up in rescue in WA. After reading the rest of the OP's comments it's more understandable why they would make an incorrect statement.

I don't have any issue with judging requirements. You CAN become a judge without breeding, you just need to prove your merit in other ways. Personally I would LOVE to see it as an additional requirement that gundog judges steward at a certain number of field and/or retrieving trials to get their show judge licence.

[becks]

Interesting thread!

I think breeding does give you a different way of looking at a dog - it is very easy to fall into judging a dog only on its faults, breeding gives you a better understanding of what faults are worse then others - ie what can be bred out by putting that dog to the right partner and what will take generations of trying to remove. It encorages you to look at the dogs virtues and what it can offer the breed. In time it can give you a better understanding of how the tiny pup -> gangly teenager -> adult -> mature adult and helps you asses a dog at any of those stages.

If you are involved in working your breed, this also gives you another view on what traits on the breed standard are more important.

Ask yourself what makes the american dobes better in your eyes then the heavier euro style dobes?

I find it interesting to read the KC, AKC and FCI breed standards and see what variations have produced different types around the world. Also good to look at if those types are actually fitting the breed standard and can these types actually do the work the breed was bred for (supposing the dog has the correct temperament for that work and not a softer and easier to place puppies temperament - as has happened in the giant schnauzer, a cousin to the dobe)

I also find it interesting to look at similar breeds to mine - schnauzers, dobes are both in the pinscher family, then look at the rotties, bouviers, russian blacks, airedales.... what makes them look different to my breed if you imagine each dog shaved off so you can see the structure and movement?

I am in the process of becoming a judge who can give CCs but in the UK we have to do it by breed, not group! We have various seminars and exams to pass on the breed, construction, movement, rules and regs, hands on judging and write up of several dogs and explaining your placings to those who already give CC in your breed, we have to judge a large number of our breed which can take 10+ years to do, we have to steward at shows at least 10 times.

I've also been on the breed club committee and now am on an all breed committee running training nights and a large open show

and of course I also show my giant and mini schnauzers

It really helps to roll up your sleeves and get stuck in to helping out with the show scene, be part of making it better not just sitting on the sidelines saying everything is crap.

[Miranda]

It really helps to roll up your sleeves and get stuck in to helping out with the show scene, be part of making it better not just sitting on the sidelines saying everything is crap.

This is soooo true, instead of sitting at your computer bitching and whining get out there and do something positive.

[skyehaven]

Personally I think it should be a lot harder to be a judge!

[espinay2]

I do not think that breeding would help someone to judge I have no idea why there is a perception that it would? Its not that I do not want to waste blood sweat tears or money and its not that I dont care enough to want to improve the breed its merely a statement of HOW breeding would make you a better judge?

To judge you must first be judged.. well if you exhibit for the required 10 years havent you been to enough shows to have been judged and to have watched judging? I may have worded my previous posts the wrong way.

I am not criticising breeders when did I ever state that? you are all getting way to defensive, I admire breeders for doing what they do but I do not understand why you must breed to judge (for the 100th time).

Becuse it is THE best hands on way for you to learn the craft of judging. It is part of your education for becoming a judge.

There is a LOT that you will learn as a breeder that will be VERY important to you becoming a judge and frankly it is not an experience or knowledge you can really get any other way.

And frankly it is not something you will understand until you actually start getting some hands on experience.

Start by actually getting in the ring and handling your dog. For one, you wont know how to be a good judge if you dont know what it takes to be a good exhibitor and learn the ring ettiquette yourself from both sides.

Then start learning what it takes to actually BREED the dogs you will be judging. Which is not an easy or simple process

Here is some reading matter to get you started. It will be important for you to read and UNDERSTAND and be able to put into practice (i.e. show through what you do that you know and understand it) a lot of the information in these books BEFORE you even consider judging dog, as it will form the foundation on which you make your judging decisions.

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DSH134

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DSH160

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DAN107

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DSH170

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DAN114

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DSH153

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DAN125

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DG198

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DG208

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/details-breeding-dogs-to-win.php

Certainly aim to become a dog judge eventually. It is a commendable goal. But don't expect to 'fast track' the process without putting in work to prove through your actions your worth to the dog world first.

[*Lolapalooza*]

I do not think that breeding would help someone to judge I have no idea why there is a perception that it would? Its not that I do not want to waste blood sweat tears or money and its not that I dont care enough to want to improve the breed its merely a statement of HOW breeding would make you a better judge?

To judge you must first be judged.. well if you exhibit for the required 10 years havent you been to enough shows to have been judged and to have watched judging? I may have worded my previous posts the wrong way.

I am not criticising breeders when did I ever state that? you are all getting way to defensive, I admire breeders for doing what they do but I do not understand why you must breed to judge (for the 100th time).

Becuse it is THE best hands on way for you to learn the craft of judging. It is part of your education for becoming a judge.

There is a LOT that you will learn as a breeder that will be VERY important to you becoming a judge and frankly it is not an experience or knowledge you can really get any other way.

And frankly it is not something you will understand until you actually start getting some hands on experience.

Start by actually getting in the ring and handling your dog. For one, you wont know how to be a good judge if you dont know what it takes to be a good exhibitor and learn the ring ettiquette yourself from both sides.

Then start learning what it takes to actually BREED the dogs you will be judging. Which is not an easy or simple process

Here is some reading matter to get you started. It will be important for you to read and UNDERSTAND and be able to put into practice (i.e. show through what you do that you know and understand it) a lot of the information in these books BEFORE you even consider judging dog, as it will form the foundation on which you make your judging decisions.

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DSH134

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DSH160

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DAN107

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DSH170

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DAN114

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DSH153

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DAN125

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DG198

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DG208

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/details-breeding-dogs-to-win.php

Certainly aim to become a dog judge eventually. It is a commendable goal. But don't expect to 'fast track' the process without putting in work to prove through your actions your worth to the dog world first.

+1

[BJean]

I want to one day become a Group 6 Judge.

I get the "registred as a member of a canine body for 10 years" prerequisite BUT I am STUMPED as to why on earth I need to breed x amount of litters and have x amount of champions to qualify.

No worries ANKC, I will just contribute to the millions of dogs that get put down every year when all I want to do is judge the correctness of dogs and stop people breeding to the latest craze instead of their breed standard. I dont see WHY I have to become a breeder to do that.

Can someone help explain to me why this ridiculous prerequisite is in place?

You're hilarious!

The ridiculous prerequisite is in place to keep inexperienced, theoretical experts out from under foot.

btw

Your rescue tearjerker reads like a tanty.

Edited September 7, 2012 by lilli

[Miranda]

The ridiculous prerequisite is in place to keep inexperienced, theoretical experts out from under foot.

Very well said lilli, sums it up perfectly :laugh:

[Saffioraire]

I am in my mid twenties and I take great offense at the notion that "old bitchy ladies" rule the show world.

That is why the world of dogs, and many other worlds are dwindling, because young people today don't want to listen and learn - they want to speak and know, and now.

Recently at a training night I had one of these "old bitchy ladies" teach me more about the conformation of my dogs in one hour, than I'd manage to teach myself in years. Not because my eyes can't pick the better dog, or because I can't read a standard, but because her eyes had been taught how to read a dog, and how to interpret a standard, by the "old bitchy ladies" (and camp gentlemen) of her generation.

It's a wealth of knowledge that is not available to you unless you stop "knowing", and start using your eyes and ears and a polite mannerism and humbleness ...

I couldn't show a dog down a dark lane, but I try. I have been laughed at, scorned, congratulated and ridiculed. I agree that unless you have been in those shoes for decades how can you earn the respect to be on the other side, or know the "tricks" of showing to see through them to judge the for the better dog.

Maybe the notion of breeding, and breeding champions, is that to breed you can't do it alone - therefore maybe you have had people teach you things along the way. You have learned how babies grow so you can amply judge different age groups. You have lived it (and hopefully learned it) through every litter, and every pup, until finally you learned how to pick the best pup out of 10 very similar other ones. Hopefully to breed you have been trusted with a main register dog, a dog who is not "mediocre" and have been shown how to choose a mate which compliments or counteracts faults - and should therefore not be breeding a litter of "mediocre" dogs destined for the tip yard or the pound.

Just my inexperienced opinions... but I am sure there are more reasons behind the rules then a bunch of old bitter twisteds with nothing better to do.

[SparkyTansy]

great post Saffioaire!

[espinay2]

I am in my mid twenties and I take great offense at the notion that "old bitchy ladies" rule the show world.

That is why the world of dogs, and many other worlds are dwindling, because young people today don't want to listen and learn - they want to speak and know, and now.

Recently at a training night I had one of these "old bitchy ladies" teach me more about the conformation of my dogs in one hour, than I'd manage to teach myself in years. Not because my eyes can't pick the better dog, or because I can't read a standard, but because her eyes had been taught how to read a dog, and how to interpret a standard, by the "old bitchy ladies" (and camp gentlemen) of her generation.

It's a wealth of knowledge that is not available to you unless you stop "knowing", and start using your eyes and ears and a polite mannerism and humbleness ...

I couldn't show a dog down a dark lane, but I try. I have been laughed at, scorned, congratulated and ridiculed. I agree that unless you have been in those shoes for decades how can you earn the respect to be on the other side, or know the "tricks" of showing to see through them to judge the for the better dog.

Maybe the notion of breeding, and breeding champions, is that to breed you can't do it alone - therefore maybe you have had people teach you things along the way. You have learned how babies grow so you can amply judge different age groups. You have lived it (and hopefully learned it) through every litter, and every pup, until finally you learned how to pick the best pup out of 10 very similar other ones. Hopefully to breed you have been trusted with a main register dog, a dog who is not "mediocre" and have been shown how to choose a mate which compliments or counteracts faults - and should therefore not be breeding a litter of "mediocre" dogs destined for the tip yard or the pound.

Just my inexperienced opinions... but I am sure there are more reasons behind the rules then a bunch of old bitter twisteds with nothing better to do.

Where is that like button!!!

[ahmadi]

I am in my mid twenties and I take great offense at the notion that "old bitchy ladies" rule the show world.

That is why the world of dogs, and many other worlds are dwindling, because young people today don't want to listen and learn - they want to speak and know, and now.

Recently at a training night I had one of these "old bitchy ladies" teach me more about the conformation of my dogs in one hour, than I'd manage to teach myself in years. Not because my eyes can't pick the better dog, or because I can't read a standard, but because her eyes had been taught how to read a dog, and how to interpret a standard, by the "old bitchy ladies" (and camp gentlemen) of her generation.

It's a wealth of knowledge that is not available to you unless you stop "knowing", and start using your eyes and ears and a polite mannerism and humbleness ...

I couldn't show a dog down a dark lane, but I try. I have been laughed at, scorned, congratulated and ridiculed. I agree that unless you have been in those shoes for decades how can you earn the respect to be on the other side, or know the "tricks" of showing to see through them to judge the for the better dog.

Maybe the notion of breeding, and breeding champions, is that to breed you can't do it alone - therefore maybe you have had people teach you things along the way. You have learned how babies grow so you can amply judge different age groups. You have lived it (and hopefully learned it) through every litter, and every pup, until finally you learned how to pick the best pup out of 10 very similar other ones. Hopefully to breed you have been trusted with a main register dog, a dog who is not "mediocre" and have been shown how to choose a mate which compliments or counteracts faults - and should therefore not be breeding a litter of "mediocre" dogs destined for the tip yard or the pound.

Just my inexperienced opinions... but I am sure there are more reasons behind the rules then a bunch of old bitter twisteds with nothing better to do.

I have to agree that this is a very informative accurate response to the person that would like to become a judge. As people have said, that breeding and titling dogs does teach you how to evaluate dogs. My motto is to judge a judge by the quality of their own dogs, and even better if they have consistanly bred good dogs.

Also with your term bowling ball fronts on Dobermanns, I can not recall when i last judged a Dobermann in Australia with a front that I would describe as that ( and it is a new term I havent heard before). Also if you are going to comment on what is required in a breed, please get your wording correct. The Dobermann standard ( I assume you have read and understood it) says " Forechest well developed." I am not saying that well developed means overdone, but it is the wording that judges must judge by

Regards

Ian

[tobie]

The reason I show my dogs is because I want the opinion of a judge who is experienced enough to judge my dogs. Why bother paying to show your dog if the judge has no experience in the show ring or with breeding proven dogs. I'm glad they have the rules in place to become a judge otherwise what would be the point in showing my dogs to someone who has not even proven themselves to have the right or knowledge to judge others peoples dogs.