Judges Refusing A Challenge...

[rajacadoo]

Thanks for all the replies guys...

This was a 2 year old bitch, quite mature, but not the 'finished product' just yet, a little out of coat, but not horrendously so, and the only one of the breed... She doesnt like the ring, doesnt really have any 'ring prescence' at all, but you can see her movement clearly, and being a short coated breed, there is nothing to hide on her at all...

The judge appeared quite annoyed as to being questioned, politely, as to why she had witheld the challenge. It was done after the judging was concluded for that group. She didnt like being asked, and the reason for witholding was quite ummmmmmmmm.............................. ridiculous, and very reluctantly given.

I was just curious as to whether judges were obliged to give their reason, tis all...

Ellz, no not my dogs :) ...

Edited January 21, 2013 by rajacadoo

[Mjosa]

I can understand if there were only puppies and they were not awarded a challenge, they are not the complete package at that age, we all know how much they can change even month by month.

I know that in some European countries that they do not award a CC to any dog under 12 month of age, I have seen these visiting judges at our Royals no award CC even to mature dogs, obviously not in their opinion of comparing them to the standard worthy of a CC.

Just one of a breed, I know about this have personally experienced it in the 1980's, they have the hardest job of all, no other competition except for a standard, when getting the CC I considered it worth more than any, then to prove it to go on and get at least a class in group and yes class in show several times, and this one of the breed only there on the day, so it is the standard you should be competing against not other dogs so to speak, I admire judges who do have the courage to do this non awarding, should be more of it and then we would not have so many dogs who maybe should not have a title, petrol champs we used to call them gathering six points at shows in the country where they knew there would not be any competition, takes a bit longer to get.

[conztruct]

I agree that there should probably be more non-awarding, it should help people to learn and really look at their dog and/or their own skills in preparing their dog.

In line with it being a learning experience, I do feel it's appropriate for judges to provide a reason for with-holding challenges. If they do not, then it makes it very difficult for the exhibitor to learn. In my (albeit limited) experience, I have found judges quite helpful in this aspect. I have had a challenge refused against a dog I was showing, I spoke to the judge after the group and whilst I didn't agree with the reason, I respected their decision and thanked them for the feedback. Several judges have also given me feedback even when awarding about things I should be careful of if I intend to breed with the exhibit they are judging - I think this is great.

I can understand some judges being defensive about being asked why because I have witnessed plenty of exhibitors descending to attack them who want to know why they didn't win but don't really want to listen, just attack and tell the judge how wrong they are.

I think the appropriate process would be that an exhibitor can ask a judge why a challenge was refused and the judge should give them the reasons and then that should be the end of it. If you don't agree with the reasons then you learn about the judge, but it may be a great opportunity to learn more about your dog.

[woodwych1]

Personally, I believe more judges should be confident enough to not award a challenge if they feel the dog is not of sufficient quality...rather than just give the nod to a dog that clearly does not deserve its title.

[Sandra777]

Sandra777 no need to yell! I actually agree here! But I do find this interesting to discuss, but please don't yell and shake your finger at me, while telling me to get my head around it! I was only referring to what I had seen, not what I actually think! Sheeze now let's continue with the discussion.... :)

What you actually wrote at the time doesn't suggest that you agree at all... you said "so surely one of them could have been good enough" which to me that this is something you think.

"Good enough" isn't good enough to judges who take pride in what they do. Sadly many don't appear to.

[Sagittarian]

I always speak to the exhibitor if I withhold a Challenge or a placing. It is good manners if nothing else as that person has asked my opinion by entering their dog at the show.

It isn't hard to be diplomatic even if the exhibit is nowhere near the breed standard. Usually I'll say something along the lines of: "even though your dog/bitch has a correct coat and lovely dark eyes, he/she is not as developed in head properties as the standard calls for". Or whatever the issue is.

That said, there are some exhibitors who take it very hard and may get upset or nasty. But giving a reason at least puts it back in the exhibitor's court and most people are very accepting.

Sags

:)

[luvdbi]

I had an interesting experience late last year where the judge awarded the challenge to a minor puppy and then refused to award a reserve challenge to the remainder of the class winners. He told his steward that he was not going to award a reserve challenge, then spoke to those still in the ring and told them that he felt none of the other dogs had correct movement for the breed.

Whether I agreed or not it was his decision on the day.

[kiwifeathers]

I really wish more judges in NZ would withhold challenges personally. Its far too easy to title a dog here in many breeds, and IMHO many dogs I've seen with CH in front of their name shouldn't have it. For some of the rarer breeds all you have to do is turn up to seven shows after the dog is 6 months old. Boom, its a champion.

I've only seen three judges withhold a challenge; one for a Bullmastiff that almost took the judges hand off, one for a Rhodesian Ridgeback that the judge couldn't even touch and slunk along on its belly everywhere, and one for an Italian Greyhound who's legs crossed over so badly on the move it looked like it was going to fall over.

[spikey]

I always speak to the exhibitor if I withhold a Challenge or a placing. It is good manners if nothing else as that person has asked my opinion by entering their dog at the show.

It isn't hard to be diplomatic even if the exhibit is nowhere near the breed standard. Usually I'll say something along the lines of: "even though your dog/bitch has a correct coat and lovely dark eyes, he/she is not as developed in head properties as the standard calls for". Or whatever the issue is.

That said, there are some exhibitors who take it very hard and may get upset or nasty. But giving a reason at least puts it back in the exhibitor's court and most people are very accepting.

Sags

:)

I agree, definitely good manners to at least have a word with the competitor - how are they are know why their dog/bitch was refused Challenge if no one tells them?

This happened to my dog at a show several years ago, there were only two entries in our class, no other entries in our breed on that day - we were placed first then the judge has us run both our dogs again, together and individually. She said something to the steward, then turned her back and walked off, gesturing for the first entry for the next breed to come into the ring. The steward walked up to us, said abruptly "No challenge" and shepherded us out of the ring. As a relatively new exhibitor, I had no idea what had just happened, especially as our dog had received Challenge at two previous shows, and I didn't actually realise at that stage that judges could refuse to award it! The breeder, my hubby and several friends who were watching came up and said "so you got Challenge?" (which they assumed as the judge had placed us first in the lineup) and I had to tell them "er, no, and I've no idea why". It wasn't a huge show with gazillions of entries and major time constraints, so I don't think it would have hurt for the judge to take a few moments just to have a quick word with us - if she refused challenge due to immaturity or whatever, that's fine, but to not be told the reason was very off-putting for a new exhibitor. Even more confusing to me at the time, the dog who came second to us on that day, went to another show the following day - same venue, different judge - and was given Challenge.

[mirawee]

I have minority breeds where we often only have 1 or 2 dogs in for challenge. I have had challenge withheld on a few occasions, generally at the Royal Show with European judges.

One USA judge withheld for any CC that didn't have an exhibit over 12 months of age which was 2 or 3 breeds including my girl who had only just turned 6 months. One European judge withheld and told me my dog (18 months old) would be stunning when fully mature :laugh: Another European only awarded BOB and withheld rDCC and BCC because he would not award CC or rCC to a dog he would not grade Excellent (the bitch he thought was only Very Good).

Although we did have one judge who non-awarded all three dogs entered due to movement. He was then queried by our breeder who knew him personally who was told "they don't move like your dogs do". Of course all three dogs were bred by her...

[Sandra777]

He was then queried by our breeder who knew him personally who was told "they don't move like your dogs do". Of course all three dogs were bred by her...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Oops..

[Sayreovi]

I've had a few refused challenges, some I completely understand, others mmm......

For my two youngest it used to be too immature, and that was fine as growing up they were both long legged, thin and gangly with more white than most Tollers shown in Victoria. So they did look strange compared to the usual short, stocky and plain :laugh:

My old boy has been refused as well for having too much white, he barely has any just a little triangle on nose, a little on the chest and white toes, none out of place but that was the reason given. I must admit that I was a bit rude and told the judge to reread the standard if that was the reason

[Tambaqui]

Over the 3 years of showing, dogs I have shown have been refused challenges!

One that had me very baffled was under a Russian judge, she told me in a terse attitude, "Full detention", the dog I shown had missing teeth, however on research after the show, I realised she was judging based on FCI standard as their standard for this breed asked for Full Detention just like Dobermanns. However our standard ask for correct scissor bite, meaning top overlapping the bottom teeth. This same dog has shown under many FCI judges and this dog was awarded as per usual.

Another dog I shown was refused reasoning was it was not typical of it's breed! This dog regardless went on to win many Best of Breed and Classes in Group after that show.

Another show I've been refused, the judge gave no reason. I never bothered to ask after the show as I felt that she did not like any of the dogs I exhibited under her!

But yes they don't need to give a reason, but sometimes the reason they give may not neccessarily be something you agree, but you have to take it because even if you discuss it, they cannot withdraw the refusal once they told the steward they are refusing! :-/

[Jbea]

I always speak to the exhibitor if I withhold a Challenge or a placing. It is good manners if nothing else as that person has asked my opinion by entering their dog at the show.

It isn't hard to be diplomatic even if the exhibit is nowhere near the breed standard. Usually I'll say something along the lines of: "even though your dog/bitch has a correct coat and lovely dark eyes, he/she is not as developed in head properties as the standard calls for". Or whatever the issue is.

That said, there are some exhibitors who take it very hard and may get upset or nasty. But giving a reason at least puts it back in the exhibitor's court and most people are very accepting.

Sags

:)

[Jbea]

Well said Sags

[WreckitWhippet]

Maybe, but it is an interesting topic! I witnessed this recently, when three bitches went in for CHallenge and the challenge was not awarded! The judge did talk to the three competitors as a group, but in all fairness the three involved are all constant winners at a high level, two of them even at Class group level consistently. So what would the story be here? The three I think, came from puppy, open, and oz, so surely one of them could have been good enough.

I've seen international judges non award at the Spring Fair and they went so far as to non award a CC winner from a Specialty the night before.

So no, some judges may not think a "winner" on a previous day is goo enough to be awarded under them.

[Aetherglow]

I have been awarded a class but not challenge under an international judge with a Junior for immaturity. He did not explain at the time, which, given that I'd never seen it before and the handler of the other dog in the class was as inexperienced as I, made the situation even more confusing. It was only later we found out it was because he did not like to award immature dogs, and interestingly most of his challenges went to dogs from the Open class that day. He non-awarded at least one other young dog the same day, to much kerfuffle.

[Dogsfevr]

I have seen plenty of young dogs no awarded often there ringcraft was so poor aswell that the whole package of being worthy of that CC just wasn't happening on the day .I see it more so in Mastiff breeds that are more popular in our state with novice exhibitors .

Any breed,any age can be no awarded.

[Lowenhart]

As a judge I have non-awarded a Champion, I explained the situation highlighting what I did like about the dog but also what I found to be unacceptable to me.

I have even gone so far as to withhold points when judging overseas. I had 2 puppy littermates, the only examples of their sex in the "classes" and they both were typical puppies, loose and all over the place. However neither were the picture of a Champion of that breed based on the standard. I explained to the exhibitor discreetly, and I'm sure both are titled by now.

I think if withholding a challenges/points, exhibitors might feel less confused. Many judges will hand over 6 point challenges just to avoid the hassles of upset exhibitors and having to explain something negative about the exhibitor's dogs.

I have had challenges withheld on my dogs, and feel it's best to say a quick statement at the time of judging rather than later in the day. Then exhibitors aren't standing around questioning what the possible reason is. Challenges and points aren't automatically awarded because you turned up. If it was, there would be no need for a judge.

[Trisven13]

I've personally not been non-awarded yet BUT I know a number of other Fauve exhibitors have for different reasons. Whilst I have not been non-awarded I've had a number of judges tell me with my young boy from my first litter that he was an excellent puppy BUT he didn't yet meet the breed standard. One even came up to me after the show to tell me that she had no doubt that he would be a top winner once he hit three but their standard calls for a mature dog. The top winning Fauve in the world at the moment is 6 - the vast majority of his winning has come in the last 3 years.

I fully expect that at some point I will have a dog non-awarded.