Mal1 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Having trouble attaching a picture of my Rottweiler Female from the Eighties, if anyone can help let me know. Thought it might make a good contrast to some of the Rottweilers I see today. She was out of Jupp vom Magdeburg and Anne von der Silberhutte. I was very interested in the comments re. Rottweiler Drive. If I was to compare my Eighties Rottweiler female to my current WL Malinois Female I'd say drive and activity level wise very similar dogs. My old Rottweiler was definitely harder to handle than my current Mal. That's not to say my Mal. doesn't have her moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denali Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 A Siberian Husky in my opinion in the epitome of function and form. Sadly there seems to be a trend of shorter legged huskies preferred in the ring They should have longer legs, be lean and able to run great distances. I see them in all shapes and sizes these days and sadly most fall out of what they "should" be. I get annoyed when people say that this is a show sibe and that is a racing (working sibe) I do not believe they should be mutually exclusive. Thankfully there are a number of good breeders out there that agree with these sentiments. Rant off :D Depends which country you're in. The show Siberians in the UK and much of Europe are far more like the racing dogs we have here. It very interesting to see the difference from country to country. For example this is the dog what won it's breed at Crufts this year http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2014&GroupID=WOR&ScheduleID=22 Very different to those here! this one was on the leaderboard on DOL: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=77442 Both Gorgeous dogs, but working wise- i imagine Crufts dog would be able to run for hours with those legs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjelkier Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) A Siberian Husky in my opinion in the epitome of function and form. Sadly there seems to be a trend of shorter legged huskies preferred in the ring They should have longer legs, be lean and able to run great distances. I see them in all shapes and sizes these days and sadly most fall out of what they "should" be. I get annoyed when people say that this is a show sibe and that is a racing (working sibe) I do not believe they should be mutually exclusive. Thankfully there are a number of good breeders out there that agree with these sentiments. Rant off :D Depends which country you're in. The show Siberians in the UK and much of Europe are far more like the racing dogs we have here. It very interesting to see the difference from country to country. For example this is the dog what won it's breed at Crufts this year http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2014&GroupID=WOR&ScheduleID=22 Very different to those here! this one was on the leaderboard on DOL: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=77442 Both Gorgeous dogs, but working wise- i imagine Crufts dog would be able to run for hours with those legs! Perhaps. Looks can be deceiving, there is a lot more to working ability then long legs. They need the temperament and correct structure combined to work. I know the dog leading the DOL point score and she is an amazing moving bitch. Sure she doesn't have the legs as long as the other dog but that doesn't mean she couldn't work. I would be surprised if Blush couldn't work all day, but until we test these dogs there is no way of knowing. Edited December 5, 2014 by Bjelkier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentchild Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 With Kelpies, as explained, there are 2 different registries, and not many breeders with dual registration. So already there is a big hurdle. Also there is no incentive to do this. There is no reason why a working Kelpie breeder with WKC registration would want to use an ANKC registered showline Kelpie - there is no benefit to it - why would they want to breed with a dog who has no proven ancestry of working? If they are looking to breed the best working dogs, they should breed with the best working dogs. I can see the benefit to the show dogs - to introduce more instinct and working ability - but there is no benefit to working line dogs in breeding to show dogs. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the benefit of breeding working line dogs to show dogs is to ensure the structure and look remain inside the breed standard? To make sure the working dog still looks like a kelpie rather than losing that aesthetic aspect and looking like something else altogether. I am guessing if someone is breeding selectively for working ability and ignoring the coat, colour, size etc then some very different looking dogs may result. (Though I am guessing farmers really wouldn't care what it looks like as long as it does the job) I like to look at a dog and be able to tell straightaway "That is a kelpie, that is a border collie, that is a Rottweiler" rather than looking at a dog and thinking..."Um.. is that a kelpie? Maybe it's a mix?" If you know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Having trouble attaching a picture of my Rottweiler Female from the Eighties, if anyone can help let me know. Thought it might make a good contrast to some of the Rottweilers I see today. She was out of Jupp vom Magdeburg and Anne von der Silberhutte. I was very interested in the comments re. Rottweiler Drive. If I was to compare my Eighties Rottweiler female to my current WL Malinois Female I'd say drive and activity level wise very similar dogs. My old Rottweiler was definitely harder to handle than my current Mal. That's not to say my Mal. doesn't have her moments. There are instructions on the forum on how to upload pics. Try the search function and see how you go. I won't offer any advice because I have trouble resizing and uploading pics myself and would probably give incorrect advice. I had a Felix Von Magdeburg Rottie in the mid 80's. She was my first Rottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 With Kelpies, as explained, there are 2 different registries, and not many breeders with dual registration. So already there is a big hurdle. Also there is no incentive to do this. There is no reason why a working Kelpie breeder with WKC registration would want to use an ANKC registered showline Kelpie - there is no benefit to it - why would they want to breed with a dog who has no proven ancestry of working? If they are looking to breed the best working dogs, they should breed with the best working dogs. I can see the benefit to the show dogs - to introduce more instinct and working ability - but there is no benefit to working line dogs in breeding to show dogs. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the benefit of breeding working line dogs to show dogs is to ensure the structure and look remain inside the breed standard? To make sure the working dog still looks like a kelpie rather than losing that aesthetic aspect and looking like something else altogether. I am guessing if someone is breeding selectively for working ability and ignoring the coat, colour, size etc then some very different looking dogs may result. (Though I am guessing farmers really wouldn't care what it looks like as long as it does the job) I like to look at a dog and be able to tell straightaway "That is a kelpie, that is a border collie, that is a Rottweiler" rather than looking at a dog and thinking..."Um.. is that a kelpie? Maybe it's a mix?" If you know what I mean. Working line Kelpies still look like Kelpies :) They don't need to be a show dog to have breed type. This is Kaos's breeder. Her dogs are obviously Kelpies :) http://www.avenpart-avenel.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal1 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Met Felix v Magdeburg in the late Eighties impressive dog. Have a copy of Pettengell's book "The Rottweiler" with a great photo of him in it. Hoped I wouldn't have to resort to reading the instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Having trouble attaching a picture of my Rottweiler Female from the Eighties, if anyone can help let me know. Thought it might make a good contrast to some of the Rottweilers I see today. She was out of Jupp vom Magdeburg and Anne von der Silberhutte. I was very interested in the comments re. Rottweiler Drive. If I was to compare my Eighties Rottweiler female to my current WL Malinois Female I'd say drive and activity level wise very similar dogs. My old Rottweiler was definitely harder to handle than my current Mal. That's not to say my Mal. doesn't have her moments. There are instructions on the forum on how to upload pics. Try the search function and see how you go. I won't offer any advice because I have trouble resizing and uploading pics myself and would probably give incorrect advice. I had a Felix Von Magdeburg Rottie in the mid 80's. She was my first Rottie. Swoons at the memories of those names AND fab dogs/bitches. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 With Kelpies, as explained, there are 2 different registries, and not many breeders with dual registration. So already there is a big hurdle. Also there is no incentive to do this. There is no reason why a working Kelpie breeder with WKC registration would want to use an ANKC registered showline Kelpie - there is no benefit to it - why would they want to breed with a dog who has no proven ancestry of working? If they are looking to breed the best working dogs, they should breed with the best working dogs. I can see the benefit to the show dogs - to introduce more instinct and working ability - but there is no benefit to working line dogs in breeding to show dogs. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the benefit of breeding working line dogs to show dogs is to ensure the structure and look remain inside the breed standard? To make sure the working dog still looks like a kelpie rather than losing that aesthetic aspect and looking like something else altogether. I am guessing if someone is breeding selectively for working ability and ignoring the coat, colour, size etc then some very different looking dogs may result. (Though I am guessing farmers really wouldn't care what it looks like as long as it does the job) I like to look at a dog and be able to tell straightaway "That is a kelpie, that is a border collie, that is a Rottweiler" rather than looking at a dog and thinking..."Um.. is that a kelpie? Maybe it's a mix?" If you know what I mean. Sticking with Aussies, check out Rozates website. They have an imported a working line stud dog from America, and are mixing working and show lines to get what you are saying. He also looks quite a bit different to the sporting aussie that was posted earlier. I would call them "sporting lines" not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentchild Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) With Kelpies, as explained, there are 2 different registries, and not many breeders with dual registration. So already there is a big hurdle. Also there is no incentive to do this. There is no reason why a working Kelpie breeder with WKC registration would want to use an ANKC registered showline Kelpie - there is no benefit to it - why would they want to breed with a dog who has no proven ancestry of working? If they are looking to breed the best working dogs, they should breed with the best working dogs. I can see the benefit to the show dogs - to introduce more instinct and working ability - but there is no benefit to working line dogs in breeding to show dogs. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the benefit of breeding working line dogs to show dogs is to ensure the structure and look remain inside the breed standard? To make sure the working dog still looks like a kelpie rather than losing that aesthetic aspect and looking like something else altogether. I am guessing if someone is breeding selectively for working ability and ignoring the coat, colour, size etc then some very different looking dogs may result. (Though I am guessing farmers really wouldn't care what it looks like as long as it does the job) I like to look at a dog and be able to tell straightaway "That is a kelpie, that is a border collie, that is a Rottweiler" rather than looking at a dog and thinking..."Um.. is that a kelpie? Maybe it's a mix?" If you know what I mean. Working line Kelpies still look like Kelpies :) They don't need to be a show dog to have breed type. This is Kaos's breeder. Her dogs are obviously Kelpies :) http://www.avenpart-avenel.com/ Gorgeous dogs!! Wow there are some great shots on that website! Yes you are right of course, but I was also thinking of other breeds. Again taking border collies purely as an example, I've looked at a working line border before and didn't realize it was a purebred border until the owner told me! Sticking with Aussies' date=' check out Rozates website. They have an imported a working line stud dog from America, and are mixing working and show lines to get what you are saying. He also looks quite a bit different to the sporting aussie that was posted earlier. I would call them "sporting lines" not working.[/quote'] Yes, my girl is proudly a Rozate. :D I especially love her sire 'Thor' - a terrific example of how working / show lines can be blended together. A champion in both the show ring and out working stock!! The import lines they have brought in are very interesting too - Drifter and Electra certainly do not look like show Aussies! That being said, I know they have been showing the imports in the specialty shows - so those lines conforms to the breed standard and are also show-worthy. Really the only physical difference I can see is the coat type. Not sure how well the imports are doing in the rings but good on the breeder for getting them out there. Another good example of course and something that more breeds should be striving to - a versatile breed type that can perform both in its original function and also sill remain true to the look of the breed. The pups that have been produced from mating the imports also look very much like your typical Aussie so I would guess that is a result from breeding to a show line bitch. Not sure what is the difference between 'sporting' and 'working' lines. Edited December 5, 2014 by silentchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denali Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) Yes you are right of course, but I was also thinking of other breeds. Again taking border collies purely as an example, I've looked at a working line border before and didn't realize it was a purebred border until the owner told me! I found this with the sporting aussies. Had no clue as i had only ever known the 'show look' type! I can tell now, but upon first meeting i thought they were BC's Rozatte aussies are nice looking dogs! Edit: make quoted bit smaller Edited December 5, 2014 by denali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal1 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Amazing, so reading the instructions can help! Well I hope the photo is attached. As already stated here's my Rottweiler from the 80's. Used to do a 10k walk every mourning until she was 12yoa and still be keen for more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Whose to say that the show lines are the correct type though SC? I look at some show line dogs and they appear to be heavy set with an awful lot of coat (ie pretty coat being the most important thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I've said this before but there are variations in working lines too - needs change and so the dog changes. The US field bred ESS are different from those in the UK/NZ/Oz because they need a taller dog to cope with the heavy cover. As mentioned you don't want a Lab mad for retrieving as a Guide Dog either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 With Kelpies, as explained, there are 2 different registries, and not many breeders with dual registration. So already there is a big hurdle. Also there is no incentive to do this. There is no reason why a working Kelpie breeder with WKC registration would want to use an ANKC registered showline Kelpie - there is no benefit to it - why would they want to breed with a dog who has no proven ancestry of working? If they are looking to breed the best working dogs, they should breed with the best working dogs. I can see the benefit to the show dogs - to introduce more instinct and working ability - but there is no benefit to working line dogs in breeding to show dogs. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the benefit of breeding working line dogs to show dogs is to ensure the structure and look remain inside the breed standard? To make sure the working dog still looks like a kelpie rather than losing that aesthetic aspect and looking like something else altogether. I am guessing if someone is breeding selectively for working ability and ignoring the coat, colour, size etc then some very different looking dogs may result. (Though I am guessing farmers really wouldn't care what it looks like as long as it does the job) I like to look at a dog and be able to tell straightaway "That is a kelpie, that is a border collie, that is a Rottweiler" rather than looking at a dog and thinking..."Um.. is that a kelpie? Maybe it's a mix?" If you know what I mean. Working line Kelpies still look like Kelpies :) They don't need to be a show dog to have breed type. This is Kaos's breeder. Her dogs are obviously Kelpies :) http://www.avenpart-avenel.com/ Gorgeous dogs!! Wow there are some great shots on that website! Yes you are right of course, but I was also thinking of other breeds. Again taking border collies purely as an example, I've looked at a working line border before and didn't realize it was a purebred border until the owner told me! Sticking with Aussies' date=' check out Rozates website. They have an imported a working line stud dog from America, and are mixing working and show lines to get what you are saying. He also looks quite a bit different to the sporting aussie that was posted earlier. I would call them "sporting lines" not working.[/quote'] Yes, my girl is proudly a Rozate. :D I especially love her sire 'Thor' - a terrific example of how working / show lines can be blended together. A champion in both the show ring and out working stock!! Oh wow! I have a dog crush on Thor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 With Kelpies, as explained, there are 2 different registries, and not many breeders with dual registration. So already there is a big hurdle. Also there is no incentive to do this. There is no reason why a working Kelpie breeder with WKC registration would want to use an ANKC registered showline Kelpie - there is no benefit to it - why would they want to breed with a dog who has no proven ancestry of working? If they are looking to breed the best working dogs, they should breed with the best working dogs. I can see the benefit to the show dogs - to introduce more instinct and working ability - but there is no benefit to working line dogs in breeding to show dogs. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the benefit of breeding working line dogs to show dogs is to ensure the structure and look remain inside the breed standard? To make sure the working dog still looks like a kelpie rather than losing that aesthetic aspect and looking like something else altogether. I am guessing if someone is breeding selectively for working ability and ignoring the coat, colour, size etc then some very different looking dogs may result. (Though I am guessing farmers really wouldn't care what it looks like as long as it does the job) I like to look at a dog and be able to tell straightaway "That is a kelpie, that is a border collie, that is a Rottweiler" rather than looking at a dog and thinking..."Um.. is that a kelpie? Maybe it's a mix?" If you know what I mean. Working line Kelpies still look like Kelpies :) They don't need to be a show dog to have breed type. This is Kaos's breeder. Her dogs are obviously Kelpies :) http://www.avenpart-avenel.com/ Gorgeous dogs!! Wow there are some great shots on that website! Yes you are right of course, but I was also thinking of other breeds. Again taking border collies purely as an example, I've looked at a working line border before and didn't realize it was a purebred border until the owner told me! Sticking with Aussies' date=' check out Rozates website. They have an imported a working line stud dog from America, and are mixing working and show lines to get what you are saying. He also looks quite a bit different to the sporting aussie that was posted earlier. I would call them "sporting lines" not working.[/quote'] Yes, my girl is proudly a Rozate. :D I especially love her sire 'Thor' - a terrific example of how working / show lines can be blended together. A champion in both the show ring and out working stock!! I found this with the sporting aussies. Had no clue as i had only ever known the 'show look' type! I can tell now, but upon first meeting i thought they were BC's I personally think the working lines are closer to Show line looks than the sporting ones. But I'm sure that's a flame suit argument for elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I've said this before but there are variations in working lines too - needs change and so the dog changes. The US field bred ESS are different from those in the UK/NZ/Oz because they need a taller dog to cope with the heavy cover. As mentioned you don't want a Lab mad for retrieving as a Guide Dog either Certainly a lot of variation in working lines! In Kelpies there are some that are heavier, some lighter, some that are quite tall. And similarly differences in temperament as well. People will use and breed what they need to work in the terrain and on the type of stock that they have. This is why researching the breeder and the type of dogs they have is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentchild Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Whose to say that the show lines are the correct type though SC? I look at some show line dogs and they appear to be heavy set with an awful lot of coat (ie pretty coat being the most important thing). I agree with you - I don't think show line dogs are absolutely the correct type either, especially those bred just purely for looks in the show ring. Which is why I think meshing some stock with working lines would be beneficial - but what I was discussing here is moreso to preserve the working instinct more than anything. Although - just with Aussies cause I only have experience with them - that the show Aussie coat can be quite deceiving! :laugh: They are all fluffed up and look super heavy in the show ring, but underneath they are about as lean and light as a border. My girl is definitely like that - I would never be able to tell if she is starving to the bone just from looking at her, damn poofy coats! I've seen ridiculously heavy looking dogs go into the water and when they emerge it's a completely different creature. I do agree that some show line dogs are appearing very heavy set, especially some stud dogs nowadays - this is where I think blending it with the lighter working lines would help. I know I have looked at a few show Aussies and gone, "Hmmm......... not sure I like that too much." But again, I don't have any experience in showing so please just shoot me if I'm wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yonjuro Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) A Siberian Husky in my opinion in the epitome of function and form. Sadly there seems to be a trend of shorter legged huskies preferred in the ring They should have longer legs, be lean and able to run great distances. I see them in all shapes and sizes these days and sadly most fall out of what they "should" be. I get annoyed when people say that this is a show sibe and that is a racing (working sibe) I do not believe they should be mutually exclusive. Thankfully there are a number of good breeders out there that agree with these sentiments. Rant off :D Depends which country you're in. The show Siberians in the UK and much of Europe are far more like the racing dogs we have here. It very interesting to see the difference from country to country. For example this is the dog what won it's breed at Crufts this year http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2014&GroupID=WOR&ScheduleID=22 Very different to those here! this one was on the leaderboard on DOL: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=77442 Both Gorgeous dogs, but working wise- i imagine Crufts dog would be able to run for hours with those legs! Perhaps. Looks can be deceiving, there is a lot more to working ability then long legs. They need the temperament and correct structure combined to work. I know the dog leading the DOL point score and she is an amazing moving bitch. Sure she doesn't have the legs as long as the other dog but that doesn't mean she couldn't work. I would be surprised if Blush couldn't work all day, but until we test these dogs there is no way of knowing. That is very interesting - thanks. Oh, and I do agree what you are saying about the long legs, I was just using that particular aspect as an example :) Edit typo Edited December 5, 2014 by Yonjuro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Met Felix v Magdeburg in the late Eighties impressive dog. Have a copy of Pettengell's book "The Rottweiler" with a great photo of him in it. Hoped I wouldn't have to resort to reading the instructions. Felix was certainly a grand dog. My girl from Felix unfortunately had entropion and suffered through three surgeries before the vet got it right. I also have a copy of the book. You did well with the instructions, nice photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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