Item About Victoria Stilwell

[OSoSwift]

I have worked with dogs in the veterinary industry for 15 years, I have trained dogs as a volunteer trainer for years and now have boarding kennels. Not all the dogs I have dealt with are nice, some have been in lots of pain, fearful, stressed etc.

In all that time, yes I have had some close calls. But I try to really read what a dog is saying and work its bubble as such.

For the first time I actually had a dog connect a few months back. Long back story but a completely unsocialised 9yo stafford who gave no warning signs at all, was highly aroused due to environment and as he was being walked past other dogs he lunged towards a gate with a dog behind it, the lead stopped him so when he saw my leg move he turned and latched on to that. Luckily years of bordem in a brick paved backyard meant his teeth were worn flat so while my knee ended up skinned and bruised through my jeans there were no puncture marks.

My point is I have had all sorts of dogs want to eat me or are really thinking of it as an option and I have managed to avoid it. I am not some worldwide known dog trainer, just a dog nerd with an avid interest in behaviour.

These peoole should know better and be able to avoid putting themselvea in a situation where they get bitten. CM gets bitten because he goes in like a blunderbus and pushes simmering situations into explosion mode. If he took more time, worked on things a bit more and didn't push so hard dogs wouldn't feel the need to defend themselves.

If an average dog nerd with an interest in dog body language can see it why can't these "experts"

Edited March 29, 2016 by OSoSwift

[Kavik]

I have been bitten by other dogs twice, both times while volunteering at a well known rescue place, one dog had bitten all the volunteers.

I watched protection training for a few years, several years ago now, participated very occasionally with very safe dogs or very green that were loaned to me or on the other side as a decoy with very experienced dogs and handlers, and in that time I saw the decoy get nailed by a live bite a couple of times, by dogs that were 'dirty' biters and would go for places they were not protected, or by handler error by being in the wrong spot when they recalled the dog off (and dog was a 'dirty' biter there as well).

[persephone]

Getting bitten is certainly painful ..getting bitten when the world watches your every move and decision ... just awful! We all have embarrassing bites , I'm sure ;) my most embarrassing one was working at the vets - holding/comforting a chi who was all upset ..when it reached up and grabbed my nose - HARD. yes, there was blood , and many laughs and much pain ... and a lesson learned ;)

[Willem]

If an average dog nerd with an interest in dog body language can see it why can't these "experts"

...maybe her producer not only likes to see her in 'VS dog training boots', but also thinks that muzzles are bad PR for her brand?...hence asking for pictures / footage without any hints that could contradict her 'positive-only' message?

[korbin13]

To me Stillwell and Milan aren't really dog trainers (even though that's what they call themselves). Both started off as something else and sort of just got into training. Stillwell was a dog walker while training as an actor and Milan was a dog groomer. Both just had good stories that made TV production companies pick them up. But both have at least raised the profile of needing to train and exercise dogs to help with bad behaviour.

Stillwell is doing a series into police dogs, and is hoping to influence some to use more positive methods. I think this is why she has raised the ire of some of the anti positive brigade. In reality, there is a shift towards using different methods in police dog training, I hear the term 'balanced' a lot!

[Willem]

...that's the same link from the OP; ...the guy - Michael D'Abruzzo - makes some serious accusations on his site (see his Disclaimer) respectively allows other people (see last footage) linking her to fraud. I would assume that if they wouldn't have substantial evidence to backup their accusations they (the guys in the footage and Michael D'Abruzzo) would be in for a major claim for damages. The address of K9-1 is on the page, it seems to be a registered enterprise - I tend to believe that they wouldn't be allowed to publish these accusations without having enough evidence that would protect them from damage suits.

[Willem]

here is the full footage of the last clip from Michael D'Abruzzo's site:

ETA: he didn't mention VS's name in the interview - it was D'Abruzzo who linked this with her name.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Willem

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I got this link from Steve White who trains Law Enforcement Dog Trainers in the USA - especially for tracking but other stuff too.

Steve is a fan of positive re-inforcement. His very first dog taught him that the traditional methods were a pile of crap.

http://www.k9workingheroes.co.uk/blog/victoria-stilwell-bitten-can-police-dogs-be-trained-with-positive-methods/

It seems that a lot of the backlash against Victoria - is more about the old school trainers trying to debunk reward based training as a reliable training method and arguing that you still need to use compulsion and aversives.

The article suggests that using compulsion - is an unreliable method of training and unpleasant for dog and handler. Ie you train a dog "not to" bite by punishing it - is not a reliable way to stop it from biting when you're not paying attention.

So those saying that Victoria Stillwell isn't a "real dog trainer" might want to take a look in the mirror - at the person who is avoiding the methods that good scientific study has shown - over and over - is the most reliable way of training any (healthy) animal.

[Willem]

...I don't think there can be doubts whether positive reinforcement training is an effective tool also for police dogs. However, I can't see that the accident has anything to do with the adopted trainings methodology (as I mentioned before). Stating positive reinforcement training doesn't work because VS as a supporter of positive only training was bitten by a dog is simply wrong as there is no link between trainings methods and accident recognisable.

Nevertheless, I believe criticising her for being grossly negligent by contributing to the accident is justified - she, like the handler and other people involved in the exercise, misjudged the risk. Maybe she was pressured by the producer, maybe it was her lack of skills, maybe lack of experience, maybe she just had a bad day - from a self declared subject matter expert we can expect a better performance.

...some good points here:

http://www.alpinek9forums.com/why-did-victoria-stilwell-got-bitten-bad-t3475.html ...while not a witness, this Hans claims that he talked to bystanders after the accident...

[The Spotted Devil]

Hans makes some good points.

I'm an experienced handler of both companion animals and livestock.

Back in November I trusted that a very experienced farmer would close a particular gate before releasing a rather cranky cow from a crush. He didn't. The 500kg animal went through the gate, hit another gate (that was broken) which hit me and sent me flying. It left me with a torn shoulder and now a badly frozen shoulder. I was fortunate to have the sense to jump up and run back at the cow or else I could well have been trampled. Sh!t happens sometimes. But it sure as hell didn't happen because I'm a positive reinforcement trainer :laugh:

[korbin13]

So those saying that Victoria Stillwell isn't a "real dog trainer" might want to take a look in the mirror - at the person who is avoiding the methods that good scientific study has shown - over and over - is the most reliable way of training any (healthy) animal.

In my opinion people don't call her a real dog trainer as there isn't much evidence she is a dog trainer, not because of her training philosophy. I could be wrong but I haven't seen any of her dogs and the standard they are trained to, maybe I just haven't look hard enough.

[OSoSwift]

And where do you back that up? You wouldn't have a clue how most of us train. For your interest I do postive only training, but I will growl at my dogs to pull them up in everyday life should they need it. So am I purely positive all the time, no, but yes I clicker train and use positive training methods as they work for what I do.

Her issue is she claims to be something she isn't, gets herself in a situation she knows nothing about, gets nailed, then whinges about it.she got nailed becused she had no idea but also because she was trying to present a picture that wasn't true. She screwed up, she should own it not throw a pity party and blame everyone else.

Show me evidence she has a clue and I will apologise.

[JulesP]

Well to start with the crap about her making police men take off prong collars etc is obviously untrue. I counted a couple in the short clip she has up promoting her new show. Which does look interesting.

She has said she doesn't train police dogs and that she wasn't there to train them on that day.

I fail to see how her agreeing to sit in a helicopter was her screwing up.

[tdierikx]

I'll concede that she may have trusted the trainers of the dogs in the setup of this exercise... but putting yourself in a situation with highly aroused trained attack dogs in a noisy and unfamiliar environment does seem kinda ready made for a mishap, no?

Hopefully she learned a valuable lesson from this incident.

T.

[JulesP]

I'll concede that she may have trusted the trainers of the dogs in the setup of this exercise... but putting yourself in a situation with highly aroused trained attack dogs in a noisy and unfamiliar environment does seem kinda ready made for a mishap, no?

Hopefully she learned a valuable lesson from this incident.

T.

The trainers and handlers obviously thought it was ok to do.

[Willem]

Well to start with the crap about her making police men take off prong collars etc is obviously untrue. I counted a couple in the short clip she has up promoting her new show. Which does look interesting.

She has said she doesn't train police dogs and that she wasn't there to train them on that day.

I fail to see how her agreeing to sit in a helicopter was her screwing up.

...have a look at post #59 from TF: ...it is part of the dog's training to charge at people in confined spaces...if the dog is left to make his own choice because he can't hear the handler properly due to the helicopter noise it is one option that he just does what he is trained to do...she made herself a decoy ...

Edited March 29, 2016 by Willem

[JulesP]

Well to start with the crap about her making police men take off prong collars etc is obviously untrue. I counted a couple in the short clip she has up promoting her new show. Which does look interesting.

She has said she doesn't train police dogs and that she wasn't there to train them on that day.

I fail to see how her agreeing to sit in a helicopter was her screwing up.

...have a look at post #59 from TF: ...it is part of the dog's training to charge at people in confined spaces...if the dog is left to make his own choice because he can't hear the handler properly due to the helicopter noise it is one option that he just does what he is trained to do...she made herself a decoy ...

The handler made her a decoy. But thanks so much for sharing your immense wisdom and knowledge about dog training.

[Willem]

I'll concede that she may have trusted the trainers of the dogs in the setup of this exercise... but putting yourself in a situation with highly aroused trained attack dogs in a noisy and unfamiliar environment does seem kinda ready made for a mishap, no?

Hopefully she learned a valuable lesson from this incident.

T.

The trainers and handlers obviously thought it was ok to do.

...the handlers and trainers are responsible too; there might have been some kind of pressure on them to remove any items, e.g. muzzles, that would contradict her 'positive only' message - it is hard to ignore all the accusations in the fist link of the OP and it seems that she got actually sued once for 'lack of experience' (fraud). She sells herself as a 'dog bite prevention expert' (look at her page) and experienced dog trainer, but when shit happens she is only a bystander?

[Willem]

Well to start with the crap about her making police men take off prong collars etc is obviously untrue. I counted a couple in the short clip she has up promoting her new show. Which does look interesting.

She has said she doesn't train police dogs and that she wasn't there to train them on that day.

I fail to see how her agreeing to sit in a helicopter was her screwing up.

...have a look at post #59 from TF: ...it is part of the dog's training to charge at people in confined spaces...if the dog is left to make his own choice because he can't hear the handler properly due to the helicopter noise it is one option that he just does what he is trained to do...she made herself a decoy ...

The handler made her a decoy. But thanks so much for sharing your immense wisdom and knowledge about dog training.

...stop thinking that everyone who knows a little bit more than you is an expert :D - he/she might have just done a little bit more reading about dog training instead of reading about the latest fashion news :D

Edited March 29, 2016 by Willem

[raineth]

And why would anyone be gloating that someone got bitten? I'm not a CM fan but I wouldn't want to see him chomped.

Exactly!