Self Vaccination

[ellz]

For many years, cat breeder friends of mine have been doing their own vaccinations and issuing their own health records showing details of such (and including the sticky label from the ampoule as evidence).

Does anybody have any thoughts about doing this for their dogs?

My experience is that except on rare occasions, puppy people don't tend to follow up with their veterinarians and continue a full "course" of vaccinations.

So would you consider doing your own vaccinations with vaccines purchased from an online Vet Supplier?

I know that the cat people do not used live vaccine so are allowed to self-vaccinate by law.

So I guess the next question would be...would you give consideration to vaccination with killed vaccine instead of live?

Enquiring minds wanna know!

[Guest Dianne]

In past years I have "self vaccinated".

But would never tell when or where, because the Vet may still be practicing who gave me the vaccines, and I would hate to get him/her/it into trouble.

We had a great trust and professional relationship

You really should be able to by law ~ load of 'codswollop' these regulations on vaccines, after all who are we going to give it too, ourselves???

Well as an after thought I have been called a b*!$h on many occassions. LOL.

Seriously I believe it is a great idea for vets. [who have a great rapour and trusting professional relationship with a client to allow them to administer themselves] and NOT ALL Vets are so money hungry that they would want to keep this to their own.

Good topic

[haven]

I wasn't aware that was an option!

If the vaccination certificate would still be recognised by those that wanted it (obedience clubs, kennels etc) I would definately do it myself. I don't see the reason for capable people to visit the vet and pay an exorbitant sum to get their dogs vaccinated. When my bitch whelped the vet was happy to give me a supply of oxytocin to inject without even asking if I was capable of administering it

[jemappelle]

I vaccinate my own kittens and cats. I discussed it with my vet first and he said he didn't have a problem with me doing it.

Edited to add that he gives all kittens their first vaccination and health checks them at the same time.

Edited June 13, 2005 by jemappelle

[ellz]

I must confess that there is a little "self interest" in my question/s.

I hadn't bred a litter for a few years and vaccination was expensive enough THEN, although I did find a vet (no longer around) who was happy to offer breeder discounts.

As it had been such a long time "between drinks" I thought I would do a ring-around of the vets here to compare vaccination prices and was quite frankly shocked by the responses.

I'm sorry, but given that the vaccine itself only costs a few dollars per dose, you can't convince me that an examination of each puppy AND vaccine could possibly justify costs of upwards of $50 PER puppy and that is just for the old DHP and not including Bordatella (Kennel Cough) or Corona Virus.

I've known about the cat people self-vaccinating for some time and one of them pointed me in the direction of Vet Direct Express who send her all of her vaccines in a dinky little foam cooler by Express Post. She has her own printed vax/health certificates and these appear to be accepted by many vets etc.

I have been advised that legally, only "killed" vaccines are allowed to be self-administered but I'm on Diane's side here....why? Heck, it's not like you're going to go around and give everybody a parvo shot is it? I appreciate the problems that the weight-lifting world has had with anabolic steroids but that is a LONG way removed from DHP and Kennel Cough!!

I am not sure what the status of self-administered vaccinations would be with "official" bodies. I have a feeling that you cannot purchase the Kennel Cough component of the vaccination without a veterinary licence. Therefore this would count out a lot of places like kennels etc (but check with them individually anyway) but I believe that "homeopathic" disease controls are accepted by some as well so it is kind of a moot point.

Either way, I still wonder how many puppy people even bother to take their dog to the vet for the full course of needles and whether or not another method would be workable.

I'm all for trying it anyway! And I'm lucky in that I do have access to a boarding kennel (if necessary) who is a personal friend and who shares my view of "veterinary profiteering" as she is a breeder herself.

And on that note, I am NOT bashing vets. They are highly educated and highly necessary (and after all it is MUCH harder to get into veterinary school than it is to get into human medicine) but there are some things that you don't have to have a degree to know and I stil believe that although a dog breeder of many years experience mightn't have the piece of paper that says so...sometimes real life experience far outweighs the book learning of younger vets!

[fifi]

when I was vet nursing, I was allowed to do 'take aways' and would vaccinate all my adult dogs at home. However for first puppy vacc. I think its the vet check if done thouroughly, is the important factor. Thats when issues such as heart murmour are detected.

I did the at home version for many years, but would always take them in once every 18 months for a good going over, & I'm glad, as we were able to detect early onset cardio myopathy in one dog & get him straight away onto medication.

fifi

[Dogsfevr]

My theory is if you slef vaccinated are you going to take the temp,listen to the hearts & do a general checkup to ensure puppy is healthy to be vaccinated??

For me when selling the pups have been vet checked at 6 weeks ,injection given or if for any reasons a problem is there its addressed before a vacc is given.

[ellz]

True fifi, I'm all for having the puppies examined. BUT, I have also noticed that many vets don't bother to do much more than a cursory examination and STILL charge an arm and a leg for it.

In fact, in my experience (and I'm talking 20 years here), it is actually cheaper to take a puppy for a general checkover seperately to having shots done. That should NOT be the case.

And the other thing that I wonder about is microchipping. Here in Tasmania, it is compulsory as of October this year to have all dogs which are in a breeding program already and any puppy which is to be registered, microchipped. This in itself doesn't necessarily concern me, it is something which I have been doing anyway. BUT, when you add examination + vaccination + microchipping, it is NOT a cheap exercise by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm all for cutting costs wherever possible. HOWEVER, this does NOT mean that I will compromise on quality of care.

[Dogsfevr]

I will also use this as a case many yrs ago we plus many others we unfortunate enough to have puppies vaccinated by a batch that was bad.

We persude this & although the outcome was to flipint if the pups hadnt been vaccinated by a vet where it was proved they where healthy & happy at time of vaccs we wouldnt have had any comeback as what proof would you have to say pups where fine when vaccinated by yourself??

If your vet doesnt check thoruoughly then say something we sure as hell do,we are paying for the consult & expect full service to be given or we speak up

[Rappie]

My opinion sways on this topic fairly frequently

Currently only inactivated vaccines may be purchased by non-veterinarians, such as killed parvo, F3's and equine tetanus / strangles. Only a veterinarian may sign a vaccination certificate as proof of vaccination. Breeders may vaccinate and sign whatever they like, but it will not be a legal document.

On the one hand, any one can learn how to give a subcutaneous injection - that's all a vaccine is....right? You're only paying the vet to give a tiny jab and they make a whole lot of money out of you and you can do it yourself. Breeding is expensive business, I agree, and breeder don't stand to gain a lot financially when all is said and done.

What happens if you obtain a live vaccine, administer it yourself and get a vaccination reaction? Will you wear it? Will your vet wear it? If the manufacturer finds out that the vet didn't give it - they wont wear it.

IMHO - the vaccination is the least important part of the vaccination visit. I stand my ground on this point - *I* (not any one else - just me) will not vaccinate an animal without first satisfying myself that it is healthy enough to do so. That means that I do a thorough physical examination and take a full history and discuss whatever else the client's heart desires, before I will vaccinate their pet. How can you ensure that owners will do this, when a lot of vets don't? Does that make it less of a problem if owners do it?

As I see it, you'd pay a vet say $45 for a consultation in the first place - you're paying for their professional opinion. Let the cost price of the vaccination be $7.50, let the cost of a vaccination visit be $60 - makes profit on vaccination visit be $7.50. Consider also that if you presented a pet that required an antibiotic injection, there would be injection fee included which is usually between $10 and $15 not including the cost of the drug itself........

Unless it became legal for a non-veterinarian to buy live vaccines, I wouldn't allow a client to buy them from me. If they were a super special client, I might give a decent discount, but I would still administer them myself - just in case.

So there's plenty of questions, and I don't have any real answers.

[ellz]

Let me clarify here, I am not for ONE minute suggesting that we go "against the law". I am not advocating necessarily the ready availability of live vaccines. HOWEVER, killed are available and appear to not be used. Why not?

As to the question of laying blame. I've not been one who readily does that anyway, whether it concerns an animal or even one of my own children. Shit happens is a term which springs to mind here. Face it, vaccination (or many medicines for that matter) is treated as a "one size fits all" thing. You give the same amount of vaccine to a chihuahua as you do to a Great Dane. You cannot convince me that the immune system is the same in both. Some people react to some foods, some don't. Some people suffer allergic reactions to cosmetics or cleaning products, some don't. It's sad that society today has degenerated to a sue me, sue you one.

On the subject of examinations vs vaccinations. One surgery I spoke to charge just $15 for a "bill of health" examination. They charge $35 for vaccination ONLY. Yet for a puppy vaccination and examination, they are charging $55....and that is just for the basic DHP. If I vaccinated myself ($7.50 for the vaccine) and took the puppy to the vet separately for the health examination, my calculation makes it under $30 for the whole thing. So how can they justify their particular profit margin, especially given we are talking of say 5 puppies?? Even full price for the first with a hefty discount after that will still generate some profit?

[Kez]

See if you can find out who the Greyhound vet is in your area (or who is used by any greyhound breeders) - Vaccination costs for us can be as little as $17 per pup, whereas going to "ordinary" dog vets they want to charge $54 per pup.

[Rappie]

Let me clarify here, I am not for ONE minute suggesting that we go "against the law".

I did not mean to suggest that you were - it's been a long boring day in a deserted vet hospital. I'm just engaging in what is a pleasingly intelligent conversation

I have no real problem with people getting killed vaccines - I don't know why people don't use them. Perhaps they don't know you can get them, perhaps they don't want the responsibility etc etc. Unfortunately, litigation is something that we (vets) have to consider - though it should have no real impact on those practicing "thinking" medicine. Of all the clients I've had contact with as a vet nurse and vet student, there's only ever been a few clients that ever threatened anything and their reasons were nearly always unfounded.

Re: one size fits all vaccination - the dose of antigen contained in a vaccine is an amount deemed sufficient to be recognised and evoke an immune response in an animal, it doesn't depend on size (though species is a factor).

I can't speak for other people's pricing structure, lol, I read a lot of things on this forum (and others) that make me think "That's a bit whacked". If it were me making it up I'd try to at least make it logical and worthwhile

[ellz]

Before my other vet "crossed over", I could never understand how he could charge me (and I presume other breeders) just $22 per puppy, yet other vets were charging $50 plus for the same thing? Wish I could ask him! LOL

I'll certainly do some ringing around to find out which vet the greyhound people use. Would be useful if nothing else.

I'm thinking of drafting up a form which I can send to the major vets in this area to place on my website to help others to decide which vets to use for which procedures.

I've always "shopped around" depending upon my needs and I have always made it clear to the vets that I am not one for exclusivity. Some were used for vaccinations, some for different preventative medicine, others for spey/neuters etc. Much in the same fashion that we humans use GPs vs Specialists.

PS...I do enjoy these threads. If I should come across as dogmatic or argumentative, I apologise in advance.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I would be wondering what a 'bill of health' check consists of- a look to see if the dog is alive and walking??????

On the one hand, it is a shame that you can't find a Vet that will do cheap Vaccinations for your pups, but on the other hand......

Vaccinations are bread and butter money for Vets, they pay nurses wages, workcover premiums, power, electricity, phones, stock holding (which is usually about $10,000 worth of drugs per Vet in the practice- yes $10,000), land tax, building maintenance.....whatever you choose to factor in as day to day expenses for a clinic. They are akin to car servicing for a mechanic.

Theoretically, you may have ten pups to Vaccinate and checkover, they may be shorter appts i.e. 5mins per pup, but if your Vet is thorough, why should you pay $30 when the person who lives up the road on a farm who owns 5 dogs, who brings them all in together, has to pay $60 per dog????? It's not like your Vet says ok we'll do a cheaper price, we'll examine half the pups, and assume that the other half are healthy, then we'll Vacc them all. Each and every one of your pups should have the heart ascultated, a belly exam, eyes, ears, nose, mouth checked, general body condition looked at and their temperature taken. That's just routine.

If I am buying a pup from a registered breeder then I EXPECT that the pup has been examined by a Vet, then I will fulfill my obligation to get a Vet check within the first 48 hrs of the pup being home- I have to pay for that. It's not that I would be second guessing your expertise as a breeder, I just expect that it would be done.

Inactivated Vaccines are different to live Vaccines, for various reasons, most of all Vaccine reactions, I would prefer a live vaccine.

Mel.

[ellz]

If I am buying a pup from a registered breeder then I EXPECT that the pup has been examined by a Vet, then I will fulfill my obligation to get a Vet check within the first 48 hrs of the pup being home- I have to pay for that. It's not that I would be second guessing your expertise as a breeder, I just expect that it would be done.

Yes, but that's YOU. What about all of the other people who think nothing of signing an agreement, agreeing to take the puppy to the vet within 48 hours and don't?

Or what about those people who don't even bother to have any further vaccinations done after that first one?

I agree fully about vet checks, that is why I am questioning the validity of charging X dollars for a vet check and then another X dollars for a vaccination, yet a combined price of another X dollars which doesn't equate?

And FWIW, after 20 years of breeding I think I know what a "proper" vet check should consist of. And I have to say, that in the majority of cases, this has most certainly NOT been done at the time of vaccination by ANY vet!!!

They are akin to car servicing for a mechanic.

Exactly why many people learn how to service their own cars!

[Lablover]

Very interesting thread.

I admire my vet greatly, that must be why I visit him so often.

Do I think we may be over vaccinating our dogs (C3)? Yes. But the average pet owner is not as educated as many of us might be. If they failed to visit their vet once a year many physical problems (even teeth, lumps) may be overlooked.

My vet behind the scenes helps non paying wounded animals. His staff are also excellent. I hope he pays them over the award.

[ellz]

BTW, FWIW, before you all start labelling me as a revolutionary who mistreats her dogs.

I will still pay whatever price it costs me to have my new litter vaccinated/checked etc....BUT.....that doesn't stop me from wondering if things couldn't be done differently and if so ..... how?

And....the "average" pet owner is precisely why I don't and have never bred as much as I could have or wanted to. The "average" pet owner doesn't deserve to have children OR pets!!

[Kez]

Ellz, I'm on your side

Quite a few of us Greyhound trainers were discussing the same thing only recently - How one vet clinic wanted $54 per pup/dog for a C3 vaccination, and the next clinic only charged $17 per pup/dog.... But in an interesting twist, the first clinic only wanted $59 for a particular drug, yet the other clinic (cheaper on the vaccination) wanted $80 for the same stuff.

We came to the conclusion that some vets make their overheads from different things...

"Normal" dog vets are more likely to make their overheads from vaccinations, because they rarely see "regular" clients for other reasons....

"Greyhound" vets see trainers & breeders fairly frequently - for drug supplies, injuries, and the number of dogs....

Good luck in "shopping around"

If you want to PM me your email addy, I'll give it to one or two of my greyhound trainer friends that are in Tassie, they might be able to pass on info

[Max]

Guess I'm lucky!! Have been with the same vet for 4 years now(since moving here). He Vaccinates for $22, includes health check. He checks hearts, patellas, mouths, ears,eyes and the general well being of the dog, weight for age,breed and such. Micro-chips (I do the whole litter) I think was $20 a pup..

He does do breeders discount.

He has become a good friend, and I pay his wages LOL