Barf Diet Myth

[arawnhaus]

SCRAPS....

mine all love them especially fresh lasagne, i do not expect it to be of any benefit to them

They just REALLY enjoy it,

I have seen many dogs on raw mostly on farms,

when my dogs ate leg bones they got to protective and eventually started on a search for their own Raw live stock live!!!

NO THEY WERE NOT ROTTWEILERS AND IT WAS OVER A DECADE AGO

[morgan]

An absolutely fascinating read!

Have been reading up on genetic separation of the various human races over the last 100,000 years - quite mindblowing! The tracking of DNA can only add to our insight into all species.

As for BARF - I have always had concerns about it due to many people's lack of regard as to nutrients, and the inherent dangers of feeding so many bones. Having spent a lot of money at the vet's for out of hours consults over bones being stuck I have a very healthy regard for them. The last time, my dog almost died - the piece of raw turkey bone was stuck low down in his throat, tubing helped only temporarily. Several hours later, when he started frothing and choking again, we rushed him back to the vet, by which time he had developed a massive infection, respiratory difficulties. He collapsed, had to have 2 bags of fluid pumped into him with huge amounts of antibiotics, and we all sat on the floor with him for 2 hours, (including the vet) willing him to live. This little exercise cost over $600, and the dog took a long time to recover, and he was only 4 yo.

I believe we should all keep an open mind on all subjects, and new information should always be at least considered. For example I have been using homoeopathy on animals and kids for over 20 years, and scientific studies dismiss it's efficacy - I find that it can have startling results, even where standard medicine has failed!

I will continue to use premium quality dry food with a few chicken necks or lamb flaps, as I have done for years, But I will now be much more careful about how I handle the chicken!

One dog, bred by me, recently passed away at 13 yrs (the breed average is 10 years) and had been to the vet 3 times in her life - twice for vaccinations, and once to be desexed - she was the 4th generation to be fed this way, and she was not exceptional. Her health record was one which we all want for our dogs, and is not exclusively obtained by BARF.

[becks]

Interesting read, nice to hear the argument from the other side for a change.

[carebear]

i don't feed barf to my dogs, they get quality dry food (not supermarket stuff) and scraps of what we eat after we eat. they too are healthy and only go to the vets for vaccinations and accidents.

[fifi]

honestly, I feel that we should be a little flexible, my dogs get a combination diet - mostly raw with a little premium kibble. We don't have a great supply of raw meaty goodies here, and I think if your dog has been conditioned to eat a bit of variety, then you are not in meltdown if the supply is interupted for one or more of your main ingredients.

I feel very positive about a BARF style diet, but dont get my knickers knotted if I can't access all the bits I need.

And I certainly dont want to be preached to about what my dogs eat. We had a similar thread a little while back, that became heated, as both sides were so passionate about being 'right'!!

All dogs are different, and one dogs cure is another's poison.

fifi

[dwynwen]

but it was written by a friend and I had that persons permission

gossco57,

Was the article published? If so, could you provide the author/title/publication/date info for us?

Or perhaps add the list of references used? (which would have been published with the article)

[fifi]

Gossco, I've posted this in your 'what you feed' thread too;

you have two seperate threads on the same theme in this forum, remember before you assume that we are all numnuts, that some of us have been around dogs a long time, studied nutrition, and many have science degrees ect...

so please approach this subject without the need to preach to the uneducated or ignorant.

great that you want to discuss the subject, and we can all learn more, but how about agknowledging the wealth of experience that already exists here too!

fifi

Edited August 21, 2005 by fifi

[gossco57]

I agree with you it is an ongoing process in life to learn from each other. I think through the thread there was some that agreed with the statement there were others that strongly did not. There were some that couldnt or wouldnt bother to read it at all.

That is everybodies choice.

However

There is one thing in common we all love our dogs we all do our best and give our best to them we all believe we are doing what is right for them.

We have had a time to put across our view now its time to let it go and finish and hope in a couple of months time not another NEWBIE brings the subject up.

Edited August 21, 2005 by gossco57

[Staranais]

The wolf on the other hand separated from the domestic dog 100.000yrs ago and is a distant ancestor .

Here's a review and a recent paper from the peer reviewed journal "Science", that say it's actually more like 15,000 years ago. They use fossil evidence as well as mtDNA dating to establish this date.

A Shaggy Dog History, Pennisi. E., Science 298:5598 (2002).

Genetic Evidence for an East Asian Origin of Domestic Dogs , Savolainen. P. et al, Science 298:5598 (2002).

Just in the interests of scientific accuracy.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Amhailte

[gossco57]

TOUCHE

[MolassesLass]

gossco57 - Firstly let me say that I don't give a rats what you feed your dogs and don't care if you hate BARF or not. But I can not stand for misinformation (or straight out lies) and so have a few things to pull you up on.

You seem to still be skirting around the hard questions asked of you. You post a very large article apparently written by a friend which seems to love spouting how feeding "BARF is an emotional decision whereas commercial is fact" yet you give us no fact and article full of emotive phrases. From the article:

How to feed your pet is your choice but it should be based upon real evidence and real fact and based upon the facts of board certified canine nutritionists

What board are you talking about and give us the bibliography for the article. Give us the details so we can read the quoted studies etc ourselves....or do they not exist???

By contrast a modern visual streak was found in dog retinae the estimated total number of ganglion cells averaged 2000.000cells in the wolf and 115.000 in the dog , almost half of that of the wolf, yet Barfers would have you believe there are neither biological nor physiological differences between the two ...

So because Wolves and Dogs have different vision, they are totally dissimilar??? You do not make a good case for your argument that dogs and wolves are so different, perhaps when you locate the studies quoted it may be more clear.

Proponents claim no harm can come toany dog fed a raw bone , never mind the studies and vet clinics that have seen countless cases of impacted bones - Torn stomachs and other internal organs damaged as a result of this practice

That's an outright lie, it is always said that dogs should be supervised when eating bones (in fact food at all). Like on this site - http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html -

Aren't Chicken Bones Dangerous for Dogs???

This is one of the biggest myths of all time! Raw chicken bones are fantastic for your dog. They are soft enough so that they bend easily, and break well for the dog to digest.

On the other hand, cooked chicken bones can be a problem, and I recommend that you DON'T feed COOKED chicken bones.

Some people are worried about their dog choking on bones. While such incidents are very rare (far more incidents occur with dogs choking on kibble), I encourage the feeding of bigger portions of meaty bones, or if available, whole carcasses, such as whole chickens or rabbits.

So could a raw chicken bone kill a dog? Well I guess that anything is possible. Certainly scientifically you can't prove a negative argument. However what we do know is that dogs have died from inhaling kibble the wrong way and choking and suffocating to death.

Feeding your dog is about management of risk. No matter which path you decide to take there is always risk. There is always someone who will criticise your decision. However you, and only you can decide what is best for your dogs. Weigh up all the benefits and risks. Do your own analysis. Do your research. Do what will have the greatest overall benefit for your dog.

because Barf proponents ignore nutrients in favor of ingredients

What evidence are you basing that claim on? You can go here and see the nutritional analysis of the pre-made patties and had you read the books you would have seen the information on how to get similar values in your home-made diets.

A commonly recommended barf recipe provides the animal with 50% more calcium than is appropriate and 22% more Phosphorous than an animal should have ,, such excessive levels can lead to a number of long term health problems.

Which recommended recipe is this, show us your facts.

And as for handling raw meat being dangerous for humans... ... So this is the fault of the diet and not of the lack of hygience on some humans?! I'm sure these humans who don't ever handle raw meat (start for their dogs and then get sick) would also have THE crappiest immune systems from eating FAR too much processed foods themselves.

We have had a time to put across our view now its time to let it go and finish

Why's that, because you are getting asked too many questions you can't answer????

Come to a forum and preach your opinions all you like, but you can't expect an intelligent group of people such a DOL to just believe you because you said it. Show us the facts and leave the emotive crap out of it.

[Staranais]

Amhailte:

Here's a review and a recent paper from the peer reviewed journal "Science", that say it's actually more like 15,000 years ago. They use fossil evidence as well as mtDNA dating to establish this date.

  Gossco: TOUCHE 

Very gracious.

My point being, of course, that a mere 15 000 years separation doesn't exactly make wolves a "distant ancestor". (To put that 15 000 years into perspective, the modern human species has been around for at least 5 times as long as that.)

So whether or not you like BARF, I think you have to admit that wolves and dogs are still very close kin indeed - in fact, many reputable sources consider these two animals just different forms of the same species.

[dougal]

I have only recently discovered the BARF diet, although wish I'd found it years ago.

Things I've discovered between feeding a "commercial" diet and BARF - my old dog has been on pancreatic enzymes since age 2 (now 15) as he was unable to digest anything (radical weight drop etc). Since finding out about BARF with my new pup, I have put the old dog on BARF. His arthritis seems markedly improved (he is now off Rimadyl), raw meat from bones is being digested (without medication) and as soon as I feed him commercial dry food his stomach plays up again (smelly/sloppy back end). Is the improvement from the BARF diet?? I can only assume so - it's working for me and my dogs.

[Aphra]

This is the reference for the original article with the bibliography.

Steven E Crane - BARF Mythology

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html

The article itself has been published all over the internet, so I'm not sure where it originated who who Steven Crane is.

[MolassesLass]

So is "Maggie Weeks" "gossco57" or was the article mis-quoted?

Thanks for posting that, off to check it out.

[White Shepherd mom]

Are we supposed to feed Pal?

I knew someone who took her constipated dog to the vet. He told her to feed him Pal to get him to go to the toilet.

Before I knew better, I gave Casper Pedigree and Pal...boy did he have a bad stomach for months. By the time I got Bella, I had them on premium pet food. When Casper became epileptic, the vet had me switch to home prepared. I can't say they look better or worse but I feel better knowing what I'm feeding them and they love the taste of it so this is what I'll stick to. Occasionally I will mix in some kibble or if I have nothing prepared I'll give them a tin but that's rare.

[MonElite]

I think of feeding my dog in a simmilar way way I feed myself.

I rather have a meal freshly prepared from quality ingredients than a frozen packaged one full of preservatives.

I dont feel that good each time I have a Big Mac.... imagine how I would feel if I ate that every day....

Can of dog food is in my mind a Big Mac for a dog. Given occasionally will not do any harm, fed daily - makes you wonder what does it do....

Nylabone - what did the dogs 50 years ago chew on? when there were no Nylabones?????

[espinay2]

Been there, done that, and have reseached and argued the point for too long to go into any great detail now. I will make some minor 'food for thought' comments however, without going into great detail:

Myth 1 - Claimed similarities between modern wild canids and the domestic dog, and thus modern domestic dogs therefore have identical genetic development and nutritional needs as wild canids.

If wolves and dogs should not be fed the same thing because they are genetically different, then what would you feed a wolf hybrid? Does the same hold true for dogs and 'wild' dogs such as the Dingo? If so, should we be feeding golden retrievers and Australian Cattle Dogs differently as the Dingo was used in the development of the ACD? Where do you draw the line?

Myth 2 - Claims of increased disease levels and shortened life spans in pet dogs versus claimed lack of disease and increased life spans in wild ancestral canids like wolves and coyotes.

The main increases are in the rates of diseases such as cancer, diabetes, thyroid related conditions, obesity and the like. These are definitely worrying researchers who are finding many parallels with humans. I wish I could find my research reference to the studies that are occurring in this respect and the correspondence I had with one of the researchers, but they dont seem to be on my work computer.

Myth 3 - Claimed reduced levels of parasites.

It should be remembered that the natural state is not the complete absence of parasites. For such a 'vaccum' to exist is in fact an unnatural state and requires chemicals to be maintained. The natural state is a state of sybiosis where the parasites exists to a level that does not cause detriment to the host. 'Overgrowth' causing detriment is a sign that there is a breakdown in the system somewhere and is of no use to either the host or the parasite. Personally, I have wormed my dogs only once in 5 years. I probably didnt even need it then, but old habits die hard. Fecal samples show there is no need to worm. A far cry from the every 3 months needed before I fed a raw diet. If a person wants however, it is still perfectly acceptable to feed a raw diet and still use a chemical wormer just to be 'safe'.

Myth 4 - Claimed reduced levels of food intolerance, adverse reactions to foods, and or "allergies".

A raw diet is very useful for a person attempting to isolate allergies simply because it provides a much higher degree of flexibility to exclude and/or include certain food items. With a commercial food you are stuck with feeding a group of foods and switching between groups. You cannot exclude individual items. Having the flexibility can allow specific intolerances or allergies to be identified quickly and individually isolated.

As for grains, even that tome the Nutrient Requirements of Dogs which is published specifically for kibble companies to formulate their diets states that the only time carbohydrates are required is when the dog is a lactating bitch. IT also states unequivocally that they are included for 'economical' reasons, not for reasons of requirement. Check out what the very well respected Merck Vet manual has to say on the subject - go to www.merckvetmanual.com

Myth 5 - Claims that feeding "raw meaty bones" are good for domestic dogs.

The old 'hair wrapped around the bones' scenario. Hair does NOT have some magical property which makes it wrap around bones. A wolf will NOT always eat hair and hide along with bones when eating from a carcass. The hair is there simply because it is undigestable. In fact one hypothesis is that the presence of hair can at times PREVENT the proper digestion of bone - which is precisely why the bone comes out wrapped in hair in the first place rather than the bone turning up as crumbly white poo more common when carcasses with no hide are eaten. This BTW comes to some degree from personal experience working in the US with wolves fed a natural diet including whole carcass and part carcass as well as the experience of others I know in the field.

As for claims that no harm will come. Even kibble companies cant claim that. Dogs can and have choked on kibble. NO ONE I know has ever claimed that problems are not possible. All that has EVER been stated from the major players in this area is that from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, problems are minimal and rarely occur. Certainly my OWN personal experience (which involves managing and owning some very high volume international email lists on the subject) is that problems related to the diet do not occur often. My OWN dogs have never had a problem occur as a result of a bone. Nothing in life is trouble or risk free, and if anyone is concerned about risks, there are ways and menas of minimising them.

Myth 6 - Claimed increased value of uncooked foods versus cooked foods and subsequent loss of trace micro-nutrients by the cooking process.

It simply amazes me that people can understand the need for humans to eat less processed foods and more fresh foods, and yet expect dogs to rely on processed foods. Studies in humans (on the equivalent of 'complete and balanced' commercial dog food - Ration Packs used by the Defence Forces) have shown that the maximum amount of time a human can go eating only processed 'complete and balanced' meals without the inclusion of fresh foods before immunity and performance begins to suffer is 21 days. The science BTW that goes into the development of ration packs can very much rival if not outstrip that for commercial pet food development.

Certainly there ARE nutrients that are killed by the cooking process. Taurine is one of them. The lack of taurine in dog foods has been linked to health problems such as dilated cardiomyopathy Another nutrient is L-Cartinine.

[Beanzy]

I've only skimmed this thread so forgive me if I've missed the answer to this question but:

Are you saying that we shouldn't give our dogs bones? I feed Beana a combination of premium dried food in the morning(as recommended by the vet) which she eats under sufference, and beef mince or chicken mince at night.

She gets raw,meaty bones every couple of days more for entertainment than food. Is this not right?

[Meriment]

It appears that the majority of people here (or those who post anyway) are all for the BARF diet and feed some form of raw bones even if their feeding regime isn't entirely BARF.

At the moment my dogs are getting a small handful of dry biscuits each in the morning (a premium brand) and then either raw mince & vege mix or bones (lamb offcuts, chicken necks) for dinner.

Sometimes they get a bowl ful of leftovers which might be sausage, lamb chop meat, roast veges, bit of rice, etc., all mixed together. That's usually a Tuesday night (bin night!!) when the fridge gets a clean out - they love it!

Occassionally if I run out of their usual food they end up with Tucker Time roll. I always have a roll in the fridge unopened or cut up into smaller chunks in the freezer.

They're all fit & healthy with lovely healthy coats, nice clean teeth and full of energy