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Mita..... could you please be careful how you cut and paste to quote others - you cut two lines of my comment from separate paragraphs which has the potential to completely change the meaning of my words.......This is how shows like Today Tonight can sensationalise because of editing.... thankyou for your future consideration.

The rough Collie coats are not easy to look after for the average household, we often get them in for grooming and they are definately not a quick fix once the coat is unkempt - so considering the number of collies shown on the sons video they must be putting a great deal of time into caring for these dogs. Okay the kennels look a bit old and hotch potch, but this is not uncommon on properties where breeders have grown bit by bit over many years, However they don't seem unreasonable and they do have a fair amount of room to move around.... not ideal perhaps but there are many family pets who live in small courtyards and they are often isolated completely for 10 hours a day while owners are at work. As breeders we can't all afford to build sleek modern complexes.... imagine the cost of just the concreting alone..... Personally I have to say there is a lot of dogs..... more than we would find in the average dog enthusiast in Dogs Vic - but under the new rules the breeder having 10 or more entire females will be subject to council requirements as a Registered Animal Business.... therefore the local council is the one who should be conducting official visits when needed, not having a terrorist attack overnight. How many here would welcome someone climbing over your fence at night armed with cameras and lights..... surely council was within their rights to just ring and organise a visit within a 48 hour period - this is part of the requirements of the permit - even under the old rulings this kennel must have a permit to house more than the legal number of dogs for the area (usually something like 6 dogs in a rural zone). This is the problem with bringing in new legislation - under the previous system councils were not following up on inspections of the facilities for existing permits.... how are they possibly going to find the time for the more complex new legislation? Remember every breeder out there - you could be targeted next......

There is one standard for GSD - not a Standard for Show GSD and a Standard for Work GSD. That should be the objective of all those breeding.... The German Shepherd League set up their HD Scheme, Hemophilia Screening they set up the Breed Survey, the GSD Clubs also are one of the few breed clubs that offer confirmation and obedience training at the weekly clubs as well as Demo Teams to promote the breed in the public. Back in the late 70's they were possibly the first to develop agility training. If you went to obedience competitions during the 80's half the dogs in the comp were GSD, the same with the early agility (nowdays the fast times mean the bigger dogs are no longer as competative). There was also regular tracking trials and the introduction of Herding. We also took GSD's from the demo team into school fetes and shopping centres to show how stable the dogs could be - This was one of the reasons the League was able to have the import ban lifted - due to the public promotion. Perhaps the main reason for the seperation is the breeders mentioned by Pepe, these were breeders who did not work within the system - they needed dogs for just one purpose, security, that was where the money was. Hence the introduction of the high prey drive. These are dogs not suited to community living. Instead they are a dog for the specialist owner, those who want the high prey sports or security work, fine as long as these dogs are not sold into family homes, but this is not the case. The GSD regardless of their breeding is sold to whoever has the money. The biggest danger to the breed is that it could be in danger of being listed as a dangerous breed or once again have a ban or restrictions placed on importing.

pepe001 - would you really expect that anyone would be able to give a full history of the GSD on a forum of this nature.... after all we are talking about over 100 years of recorded history......... not sure what your point was in referring direct to me... I was just responding to someone who had asked for information on the point of the three point stack.....!!! Side note: I believe that Von Forell Kennels began breeding Dobermans in the early 80's but didn't get into German Shepherds until later perhaps around the early 90's. He was a breeder of dogs for the security industry, connected also with Neville Williams of Von Kaiserhoff kennels - I don't remember either of these kennels being involved in showing dogs in the speciality scene back then.

With regard to the stacking of the GSD - this is a stance that the dog will generally walk into on his own. When they are moving around the paddock and spot something they will stop and look - this is the best way to see the dogs natural shape, they will usually be in a three point stack because this is the normal position a GSD walks into and is then ready to move. In the show scene if you stack a shepherd in theory the pastern of the far hind leg should be at 90 degree to the ground, so it is always worth looking to see if the angle is incorrect the dog could be too stretched thus lowering the back and increasing the look of a low hindquarter. If the inside hind leg is placed wide of the body in stance you will also get an exaggeration of the back line and often appear more roached in the back (roach has always been considered incorrect). Even if a GSD stands four square the wither should still be higher than the croup. In movement the dog should show strength in reach (front movement) and drive (rear movement), if a dog is cow hocked you will not get good drive, if the dog is out in elbow you would have poor reach. The video of DINGO is a good example of correct movement, one of the ease of movements of the GSD is that they have a moment of suspension when the dog is all legs off the group and moving forward with ease. Often the GSD we see now would not have the ability to move like this, especially for a longer period of time - when you consider some of the dogs in the ring much of the fault has to be laid at the feet of the judges, perhaps they do not have the knowledge or perhaps time is limited. A speciality show has the dogs assessed individually and then groups moving around a very large arena at full trot for quite a few periods of time, if the dog has poor movement they will be passed on the line by the better moving dogs, There is minimal judging done with the dog just in stance as it is easy for good handlers to hide faults that show up in the movement.

For those who don't know much about the history, here is some background to consider - much is know about the early days of the development of the breed due to the fact that the germans did like to keep strict records, perhaps one of the few breeds to be able to log back so far. Back in very late 1890/early 1900 Capt Max von Stephanitz had seen there were a type of herding dog that were used in the highlands (shorter in limb and stocky with heavier coats) and then there were the low/flat land herding dogs (longer in limb and lighter build) one of his objectives was to produce a dog who was capable of doing the job of both types. History told us he purchased a dog seen at a trial, Horand von Grafrand, this dog was the first registered GSD and then shortly after came the dog Roland....(as pic provided previously) He was not considered as perfect just as the start of breed type.....of course there is consideration to the fact that the needs of humans for the dogs in the future would change, thus the breed would need to adapt. Hence the development of the GSD - a dog who could cover 30 miles a day along the flat when heading to market with an effortless gait however the same dog could also jump and bound when finding and herding sheep thru the mountain side. Anyone who has been to Germany knows that the northern half is very flat and southern Germany is very hilly....... Another role of the GSD (unlike the role for a kelpie dog) is that they could live with the Sheep Herder on the hillside and protect the flock from larger predators. Hence why the GSD should be the size and weight to cope with this role. As lifestyles changed and agriculture was not become the basis of community life the Capt also saw that the GSD would not have the same requirement as a herding dog - thus the development of the dog for other purposes was seen as the future of the breed. When I began breeding and showing GSD it was not long after the import ban had been lifted (mid 70's) and Australia was lucky to have some great imports come to our shore - the face of GSD in australia now changed for the better. the lines of Ingo and Phal became big influences in those days along with many other dogs. The dogs in the 80's were strong, well formed and NOT overangulated, these were dogs who looked capable of running the miles and still work - we also had many smaller breeders who had a few breeding dogs who lived in the home and the breeders knew what these dogs were like to live with. Pups were usually raised in the home. Perhaps we have to also question that nowdays the GSD are often living in pens on properties where the breeders have no real idea of what it is like to live day to day with these dogs. The pups don't have the social skills nor the structure to give a long healthy life. A GSD male should weigh about 36kg yet many I see are over 40kg - too heavy for their limbs as well as often the high prey drive can make them unsuitable for families. I run a training school for families and their dogs - a GSD is not a dog I recommend to the inexperienced. Just too hard.

It is fairly simple to follow Jean Dodds vaccination schedule C3 Injections. 1st vaccination at 9 weeks 2nd vaccination at 12 weeks 3rd vaccination at 16-20 weeks 4th vaccination at approx 12 months of age. No further vaccination required - except that clubs and kennels often still ask for yearly..... Kennel cough 3 days prior to going into boarding - if required This vaccination only lasts approx 6 months and only covers 2 of the 8 types of kennel cough.

Exactly, often people here saying its not the dog's fault its the owners fault - There has to be ways to ban some people from owning dogs.... they don't deserve them.

There is a thread on here about the Vets All Natural Diet. They also have a website which has loads of information and ideas. This is a cost efficient way to feed and offers much the same as what BARF does but is less expensive as not packaged in the easy container system - VAN is a similar price to using dry food.

Doubt they will find many Australians prepared to pay that sort of money for a dog.... no matter how rare...... unless of course the dog can actually talk or poo gold nuggets.

All very well to suggest to advertise everywhere - but advertising costs. Also one huge advantage of DOL is that often the public searching here have generally researched a little more and are actually looking for a registered pup, therefore tend to be more realistic about price etc as opposed to the enquiries thru trading post where you get "I just want a pet not show and so don't need to pay full price"

Lots of things to consider here - even the age of the dog is relevant. This behaviour definately needs to be addressed before it escalates and she would have a dog that has some real problems and will be kicked out of competition. Would not even attempt any further work in agility until the dog is calm and steady around people and other dogs in general. Sounds like this dog is working on competition without having the basic skills to deal with the human world at large.

The sex of the two doesnt matter all that much - but sometimes it is worth considering the maturity of the first dog before getting a second. Generally I recommend clients wait until their first dog is over two years old as this is usually when you can see how mature your dog is. However if he is pretty easy going and mixes well with friends dogs then chances are you will bring a pup home and they will enjoy each other's company. Also as you have a small breed there is one word of warning - many people have a tendency to spoil their little dogs and they can then become very fussy about any changes that happen in their lives. If so he might object to any pup male or female.

I think the real lesson behind this thread was more about how there are so many factors to take into account when it comes to considering the success of a family getting a new pup. Unfortunately this family in question ignored most of them.... After the last 20 years of running a dog training school and seeing the good, bad and indifferent I have learnt much about how to breed and choose families to give the best chance of success with any pups. Consider the following factors and you see how much falls back to the breeder - which no amount of government regs will help with regard to BYB or Puppy Farms. 1. The temperament of the parents - considering all the factors that suit the breed in question. 2. Raising the pups - correct feed and also building social skills being introduced prior to rehoming. 3. The most important Choosing the Families - considering the breed traits and choosing the families that offer the lifestyle that these puppies need. 4. Helping to educate the families - and that means NOT SELLING TWO puppies to the same family and also taking into account the age and status of the existing family dogs and being prepared to reject a home if the environment or circumstances are not appropriate for the breed traits. 5. Inexperienced families to get involved in training programs to build the skills their lifestyle needs within the community≥ 6. Most families with new babies or a few preschoolers are probably too busy and rushed with all the human activities to offer even one puppy the proper training and development let alone TWO...... Sometimes families might not fit all the above factors however they achieve success, but when you consider if most or none of these factors are involved there is a really high chance that the pup will grow up and either end up at a rescue centre or causing havoc to the family or community at large. This thread didnt come across as a breed thing, its just that there are likely more families getting the bull breeds thru BYB and puppymills, thus not able to go thru the process that most ethical breeders build - much greater chance of the problems.

I have had real trouble finding a local supplier for VAN (we are in Nth Suburbs of Melb) and have emailed VAN wondering why they cant have a better system of supply for Victoria - they are still working on it. When I have found a store with even a 5kg bag of VAN available it is full retail price but has been over in the eastern suburbs and too far to travel. Very frustrated as if I lived in NSW I could collect the goods from Stefmar for only $6.50 for the whole order.... Wish VAN could set up something like that in Victoria...... my last order was over $500 and would have been happy to drive down and collect from a depot. I have been buying 3 or 4 x 15kg bags at a time online - which if I can find VAN thru any local store they usually only carry 1kg or a 5kg bag - Initially brought thru Greenpets which is the group on the VAN website, however they charge full retail price plus postage, so adds a fair bit to the cost. Have found an online shop which sells the product for less but the postage is higher - although still cheaper than recommended retail. www.stefmar.com.au example: Price for 15kg bag of Complete Mix Greenpets QLD : $135.00 + postage to Victoria $18 - postage to Tasmania $40 Stefmar NSW : $118.57 - postage to Victoria $26.70 - postage to Tasmania $30.70 Hope this information helps.

Been feeding VAN complete mix and roo meat for 7 months now. I am lucky enough to have a local roo eradicator - he is a retired butcher and so he shoots and process the roos imediately. Which means when he brings it round to my freezer it is almost still hopping..... sometimes wonder if I need to put a brick on the lid of the freezer to prevent escapes. This roo mince has almost NO SMELL and happily have it in our kitchen fridge and prepare my dogs food on the kitchen bench with no aversion. Had someone bring their dog to the kennel and he provided the food for his dogs prepacked roo meat (purchased thru commercial sellers). It was very stringy and smelly also seemed to have a lot of fat thru it. I mentioned this to my butcher as I couldn't believe the difference to this meat and the stuff he gave me. He said it is common for pet manufacturers to mix roo meat with either older cow or horse, this would explain stronger smell and more fat and gristle in the meat brought in. The regulations for pet food are different to human consumption - So remember when buying roo meat - if it doesn't say 100% roo it might be roo mixed with horse or cow.... it may also depend on where the pet food company sources their roo meat.... if its not fresh it will have a stronger smell.

One very interesting study by the Hungarian Family Dog Project was when a litter of wolves was raised individually by a group of research fellows who had also raised the individuals from a litter of domestic dogs. This allowed comparisions to be drawn. Initially things where fairly similar but as time progressed the gap widened. For anyone interested here is the link to the Wolf/Dog Comparision Study. http://familydogproject.elte.hu/research.html Perhaps one possible observation we could draw from this study could have been that the inbuilt temperament of these wolf pups override the environment - strong support to consider that the temperament is likely to be genetic. Personally I feel that the Temperament is genetic however the environment can enhance or suppress some of these personality traits. Hence why I prefer to meet the stud dogs I plan to use in my breeding program first as it helps to get a feel for what they might have to offer as far as temperament goes.

Paddo Pup - firstly have to commend you for your effort and commitment not many would put up with this for so long. Solution is not going to happen easily and may not achieve everything you wish however perhaps with a multi facet approach you might end up with a workable arrangement. Many good suggestions and I shall add my thoughts - slow process but you seem prepared to work with her. Zoning - firstly it would be worth investing in a solid indoor pen. One that is large enough initially to go around a large section of the tiled common area such as the family eating area (ideally set up around the dining table if tiled). With a door to allow humans and dogs to walk thru when open. Initially you want a large enough area where perhaps you can sit at the table inside the pen so that she feels that this is part of the home and not shut away. Her bed, toilet tray and feed/water is in here. This can become a place she is comfortable whereas away in the bathroom etc is locked away. In time you may be able to reduce the size of the area and she will feel okay with it. Playtimes - find a puppy school (some allow older small dogs) or social training class where you can take her to give her a chance to become more social with other dogs.... she needs to feel comfortable in her dog skin and the best way to do this is for her to mix with easy going dogs of all sizes and age. This might take 3 months or more before she lowers her guard enough to make friends and should happen naturally without you or any person trying to force the friendships - let her deal with dogs coming over to say Hi even if she doesnt like it - what you need to do is give her time to develop a natural curiousity to what these dogs are doing..... once she doesnt feel threatened by the environment she will probably enjoy watching and might even tentatively start to follow. Hopefully within time she will develop a liking to particular personality types. With time you might find you can explore more social options such as visiting friends and have them visit with their dog. Exercise - she might be small but she has built up energy that needs to be worked - lots of fast walks and even the chance to get down to a lake or beach and chase the water. She needs a chance to feel more like a dog and less like a victim. It is not just physical but mental - she needs to use her brain for other things - get a book on tricks or better still enroll in a trick class or dancing with dogs..... Feed - get her off ANY commercial dog foods and onto one of the All Natural Raw diets (Barf or VAN are great) - removing all colours, preservatives, additives and sugars will allow her body to cope much more. This includes any of the treats you give her - instead some dogs enjoy pieces of apple, pear or even small slices of carrot - especially if you have been eating this. She may take a few weeks to get used to a new diet but persevere she will eat when she is hungry. Drugs - I am never a fan of drugs as this will often mask behaviours and her natural reactions thus prevent a dog from developing the social skills to cope with what society throws at them. However if the above exercise and feed is sorted then try a short program of drugs. Best of luck

Anyone here using a program for recording pedigrees, health testing etc........ would love some recommendations for what is good and what is not.

This is something often instructors forget. The physical development of different breeds can make some movements more difficult. Standard Poodles have a preference to standing rather than sitting, it is just how most seem more comfortable. When a sit is required they will generally be slower than many others - this is perfectly acceptable - if you try to rush this style of dog you will find that tension comes into play and makes this harder than say some breeds like a golden retriever. The same applies to drop. The Standard is quite deep chested and doesn't fold as easily in the legs. Again don't rush but allow the handler and dog to take their time and the dog will build their muscles and co-ordination which in times makes it easier. Other breeds that need to develop at a slower pace (especially for the drop) - Doberman, Great Dane, Weimerana - In fact you could say any of the deep chested breeds. As an instructor, if you find some handlers are having difficulty with the drop during the class work then just ask them to get the dog to sit (or even stand), so that it doesn't make them feel as if they are holding the class up. Advice them that they can practice building the drop at home as a quiet relaxed exercise and let them decide when they feel confident to add this to their class work. Your first priority as an instructor should be to build the confidence of the team and one thing to be careful about is making someone feel they are the dunce in the class, so remember not all dogs are going to do all things well, so make light of any problems and build the skills they find easier first.

Whether you agree or not - the public have a perception of what a pit bull type is - that dog on the tape fits that criteria in the public eye.... Perhaps looks more like a Dogo Argentino.... which by the way is banned in australia..... so often when people do have a Dogo they call them other things.....

Some of the little white fluffies can be real 'princesses'. Often reactions can depend\ on what experience the pup has had in the past with other pups or life experience even before you got him. It is fairly easy when you get a new delicate fluffy to be a bit of a softy with them and then their behaviour can get cocky.... Sounds very much an over-reaction by your pup..... after all as if a spray of water is really going to do anything...... it will pass - and don't necessarily think you can't spray him again if he starts biting again.

There is a minimum age for first breeding however don't think there is actually an upper age limit given... I believe that if a bitch is to have more than 6 or 7 litters (can't remember which) then you have to have inspected by a vet prior to mating. There are a number of factors to be considered as to when to stop breeding for example: How many pups in each litter? How long between litters? What is the breed? How fit is the bitch kept? One of my bitches has just had her final litter at the age of 7.5 years. This was only her fourth litter and she is very fit... when we took her to the vet clinic for AI they thought it was her first litter she looks so fit and strong.

We know that most of these breeds are prone to BYB or puppy farms. For example: A local near me has three staffy girls and one entire boy that she is breeding and has openly told friends she pays her rates and holidays from the proceeds. Apparently not VCA bred and she seems to always have pups. Council have only just got onto the fact she has over the allowed number of dogs she is now bitching about coping fines for not registering her dogs.... she is just one in the area - plenty more doing the same even within the same shire. We all get frustrated by these people and I am sure our Council Officers are equally frustrated and even tho the DPI is trying to introduce laws it probably just makes the whole thing more complicated. Dogzonline as stated is Australia's pure breed dog community - a place where the public have access to information about pure bred dogs (as reliable as possible) - the best way to ensure this is to set some criteria - i.e Kennel Association Memberships and Prefix Registrations at least for a start..... after all this site is offering an opportunity to showcase our dogs as well as provide listings of breeders and litters available. The public (rightly or wrongly) sees this site as virtually recommending the breeders advertising here - It is important that the owners consider how they vet the membership. It is great to see that there is someone watching over these adverts and the breeders listings.... when I first joined I didn't realise there was a need for a watchdog.... Even though I first joined the VCA back in 1979 and got my prefix in about 1983, there didn't seem to be much problem, in fact few pet shops even had pups and certainly not promoting them around xmas or valentines. When I became re-involved in breeding over the last 6-7 years I have been a bit shocked by some of the issue of the breeds or breeders.... naive I suppose but having more involved and seen more behind the scenes which makes me wonder......

You haven't mentioned outside time.....firstly going out to explore with his humans in new surrounds very important especially starting out. Also the backyard is the place for our dogs to play and run, build muscles and have loads of toys and games to play even a garage or carport can be set up with toys dangling from cord to create activity for single pups - tired puppies are much less likely to spend their time chewing..... Inside time is more for chill out space.... not playtime - so I recommend that there is no wrestling, tug of war, chasing games - inside is for crashing on the mat and resting from the previous activity... quiet time laying down perhaps with something yummy to chew on.... Once you have kids you have to kidproof the lower regions of the rooms, same applies for the puppy stage. But even so if his energy level is too high inside, you are not meeting his needs for the exercise - physical and mental - get him out and wear him out, then he loves to come in and have quiet time to have a quiet cuddle while watching tv. My dad was a scout leader, he always said if you give kids enough activity they don't have the time nor energy to get up to mischief.... he was right. If your pup/dog spends most of the day inside you will have damage done.