mita

they do happen .. silent heats ... one second's loss of concentration .. nobody's perfect. Fair call, but I was more referring to the BYB style of "accidental litters" UQ research found that registered breeders had far less numbers of accidental litters than did unregistered breeders. That's a statistical pattern. When it comes down to an individual breeder of either kind, he/she may or may not fit that pattern. But it's likelier that they will. For the puppies welfare, it's also about how the puppies are socialised in the critical weeks for that development....with their breeder. UQ research also found that the registered breeders were more likely to socialise their puppies well than the unregistered ones. Without that socialisation being hardwired in...there's higher risk of later problems.

Too many to list, but great responses in this thread. The voices of considerable dog knowledge and experience.

Just let one of these tough Corgis pick on a feisty Tibetan girl. Our Angel the tibbie was at a Blessing of the Pets at an Anglican Church. She was having a drink of water from the dish set out. The Archdeacon's big fat Corgi girl, named Victoria (after Queen Victoria), attacked her. Wrong move, lady! Angel lit into her like a little flying dragon. Victoria retired whimpering. Her owner, the Archdeacon, told her it was her own fault for picking on a feisty foreigner. Seems he thought the British Empire was still in place. Here's Angel getting a blessing on that day... after beating up on Victoria. Tibet 1 Britain 0

Welcome home, Butch, where you belong. I hope you gave some big 'Thank You' licks to the wonderful members of that legal panel. So glad you found these friends and lots more when you needed them most.

Exactly. And, in this case, when the mother finally noticed and said that she, as the mother, would be the one to speak to her child.... I would have answered, 'Thank you for introducing yourself as his mother. Of course, you will explain to him why those actions were risky and unkind. It could be difficult for you, though... you didn't see those actions. Ah....this is where I came in!'

I'll PM you the phone no for the Behavioral Helpline associated with the behaviorists/trainers at RSPCA Q'ld. Lismore isn't far from the Q'ld border....& I once asked them could a Melbourne friend phone them to run past a problem. I've owned a dog with separation anxiety and with the right understanding provided by a behaviorist and following their guidelines, problem was remediated

Exactly. It's not fair to another foster-carer or new owner when a dog, already seen to cause a serious problem, is handed on. Nor is it fair to the dog. As well as bringing the idea of 'rescue' into disrepute. Another reason that what counts is what rescues actually do on the ground,. Like monitored fostering, behavioral assessments, screening and matching when placing dogs.

That's the kind of situation where whoever has rescue 'ownership' is leaving themselves open to blame, if a dog, already noted to have serious problems, is sent on to then cause more mayhem.

Couple of years ago, I found a female Pit Bull running up and down the fenceline playing with my Tibetan Spaniels. Great time being had by all....tails wagging & big smiles. The Pit Bull was lost, and she had with her a 'companion'....a tri-colour little Cavalier. The Pit Bull turned out to be a lovely dog....well socialised and biddable. But she continually kept watch on her little friend. From their tags, we found the owner. As we loaded the Pit Bull into the back of the station wagon, she wouldn't settle until her little Cav mate was lifted up beside her. Then she was happy. That little Cavalier had her own personal guardian angel....& it was a Pit Bull! My Tibetan Spaniels were sorry to see their new 'friends' driven off.

Bless the wonderful people who eventually got Missy off the mountain. They restore faith in the human race. And now she will live the rest of her life with people like that.

I don't know how the law works, but has a pound ever been sued after a dog adopted from there, caused injury? I thought it'd be held to be the responsibility of the current owner?? Unless there was evidence that the dog was known, in the pound or from temperament testing there, to have seriously 'at risk' behaviours. If pounds could be sued successfully for what a dog did, after it'd been sold or passed on, then they'd have to seriously consider if they'd sell or pass on any dogs. It'd be good to have proper legal opinion about this matter. I'm just asking questions. I don't think further regulation in the law would solve any issue. Surely there's sufficient in current laws....like, back we go, to applying the conditions under which the pounds release dogs. Or looking at financial issues, like fund-raising and appeals for donations. But, from a consumer perspective, it can help for the public to see self-regulation. As when, services who adhere to common ways of working, band together under one association. Only those groups who follow those standards can use the association 'label'. Didn't the Victorian rescue groups do something like that? Most of the ethical rescue groups already work according to common standards...in all the relevant areas, like testing, monitored fostering, desexing, screening of new homes etc etc etc. And they do those things in real-time, not move around from cyberspace.

Sorry for picking out one bit of your interesting post. But I wanted to support your paragraph which contains the very foundations of rescue. Which are to be 'on the ground' and 'reality checking'. That's where the dogs and the people actually are. The Net is brilliant for helping things 'happen'... and our world is so much better for it. But, sometimes it skips over the real world where things actually happen... and have consequences. Pet Rescue, for example, works well on the Net because it's a focal point where the public can reach the 'real world' work of pet rescue, its organisational structures and what it offers. There are such strict aspects of that rescue organisation, like temperament assessment, health and veterinary attention, desexing protocols, monitored fostering, & screening/trialling for new homes. All this within the parameters of state and local law (& even federal law when it comes to taxation matters). All of which is why rescue is hard, hard work for those who do it. So I can't see how it could be relegated to largely operating from cyberspace.

Agree strongly with what Sandra said above. Temperament and health should be up there with conformation and breed standards...in aiming towards the best possible examples of a particular breed. Along with that, should go an eye to the dog's long-term social welfare. Here's a breeder's 'mission' statement which bears that out: "My goal is, and I feel dedicated to, breed with healthy animals, only breed with animals that have good temperaments and within this frame, breed as close to the breed standard as I can, and to give life to puppies that have the best chance for a good long life and a loving home for the rest of their lives." All of which led to that northern European breeder winning Best of Breed at the last Crufts Dog Show. By luck, I own one of this breeder's dogs as a pet. She has a glorious temperament. Another pet owner, has her daughter. Also....glorious temperament. That breeder matches her words with real work and effort. To be honest, as most I've come across do, too.

Here's the research info from the Hoarding of Animals Research Consortium, based at Tufts University. Makes the point about nearly 100% recidivism. They separate this pathological animal hoarding from animal sheltering where people may gather more than reasonable number of animals (but do their best to care for their needs). With hoarders, the person's need to collect dominates over any basic care for the animals. One can be unwise...the other is deeply pathological with appalling consequences for the animals. http://vet.tufts.edu/hoarding/

Yes, dogs do seem to 'read' other dogs, both on the basis of their current body language....and also on some breed recognition perhaps? I've seen so many examples with our dogs interacting with others. Like once I found our tibbies playing at the fenceline with a lost female pitbull. My first reaction....yipes!!! But then I looked at the dogs....tails wagging, big 'smiles' all round... and the pitbull was accompanied by a pretty, daffy spaniel that she seemed to be looking out for. So taking the cue from the little dogs, I had confidence in going over to the fence, talking to the pitbull girl and eventually securing her by the collar. And the tibs....and her spaniel mate...were right. They could read the body language better than me. The pitbull was a lovely, biddable, well-socialised dog. As to breed, the tibs happily accept new greyhounds coming in and out of the property at the back. But I heard them taking exception, at the weekend, when 2 non-greyhounds were visiting....and who weren't doing anything different (to my non-dog eyes!). My dogs are breedist! :)

Very wise, Nic. I've heard really decent, on-the-ground rescue groups comment on how carefully they operate by those conditions.... as they don't want to have the clause taken away. So there must be a complaints process somewhere....

When I read the research about the true-blue animal hoarder, it said one of the many signs is that they're almost impossible to stop. Whatever is done, they'll keep on finding ways to get hold of animals. You are right to try to stop the supply from the other side....cautioning people not to hand over animals. But, in this day of the Net, the world opens up with potential to supply free animals. Weekend newspapers have ads starting off 'Free to good home....'. And animal hoarders can present as devoted animal lovers. There was a family of hoarders in Brisbane (little dogs) and they were hauled into court on numbers of occasions....and were even banned from owning any animals. But it wasn't long before, somehow, they'd manage to get their hands on more. This time, to try to evade detection, they were keeping all the dogs up in the ceiling. This is not just persons unmindful of the law... it's pathology.

I wonder what conditions are laid down to be able to pull dogs using this? I'd have expected it can only be 'on the ground' rescue groups, Rescue and assessment & placement of dogs needs to be firmly located in the real world. But this seems to be organised differently.

When the notice is put up on Pet Rescue, I'd assume it will disclose the information that this doggie has shown severe separation anxiety. Interestingly, I was home 'most of the time' with our Sheltie. Which raised her anxiety, in the times when I wasn't with her. The UQ vet's remedial program was based on the fact that a dog must....and can....learn to spend time comfortably on its own.

Kirsty, what Ams has said about the nature of separation anxiety is right. As the dog's behaviour leads an owner to rehome, then the dog's anxiety gets worse as it ping pongs from home to home. We had a sheltie with severe separation anxiety....she'd rip the sunroom to pieces. A vet behaviorist at UQ gave us guidelines to follow. Fortunately the sheltie responded well.....to my amazement. But different dogs would respond differently.....so I'm not criticizing your efforts in any way. Ams is also right that separation anxiety does not show up in shelters.....because it comes when a dog finally has an owner. As the UQ behaviorist vet explained to me, the dog then goes overboard in bonding with the owner and is desperate to keep him/her with it. The crux of the remedial program was to wean the dog off this 'wanting/needing to control the owner's presence'. I notice you're in Q'ld. The behaviorists/trainers at the RSPCA Qld have a Behaviour Helpline that you can phone to talk over problems. I used it some time back and found the person attentive and helpful. Best of all, their starting point was the fact that you love your dog....so were genuinely trying to do the best for it. And she didn't come over as holier than you or bossy. She shared with me that she was presently working on a problem with her own pet....like any other pet owner has to do. I have the phone number somewhere, so will find it and PM it to you.

What a happy little man in the life you gave him....right up to his final visit in the vet's waiting room. He must've looked a treat in those amazing PJs. Of course, you did the right thing....you made this possible for him. Lucky Maggot to have found you. He's at peace now, with no more discomfort that's too much for him. My heart goes out to you.....you'll miss this lovely lad.

Won't the name of the puppy farmer be made public when charges are actually laid and the matter will come before the courts? The seizure of dogs is part of the investigation when vet assessments are made to provide evidence to then lay charges. Then the media will name the persons charged (I'd expect).??? Last bit says there are penalties provided for, in the particular law....when the matter has been heard by a court. I know from the puppy farm raids done by RSPCA Q'ld that there's a strict legal process which has to be followed after dogs are seized from these places. If one part of the process is not adhered to, then the entire case can fall apart. I've heard it described as 'walking on eggshells', until a court hearing finally states that the RSPCA can have full legal possession (hopefully). Long time back, some legal technicality led to a court ordering seized dogs (in awful condition) be returned to the puppy farmer. Fortunately, out-of-court negotiations between RSPCA & puppy farmer, led to that farmer signing over the dogs so they stayed safely in foster-care. I had close friends who used to foster those cases. I donate to the RSPCA Q'ld & will continue to do so.

Better but that still requires the dog to display a certain behaviour to be categorised and Id like to see a situation where the fact that its a dog is taken as a sign that how it is kept and managed should be given consideration before the behaviour is a potential threat or pain in the neck. The rest of my post pointed out how the French system married the two variables. Dog behaviour and owner behaviour in managing or mismanaging their dog. The French never separate them. Neither did my suggestion which described how it could also be done here. Especially in taking seriously and following up reported nuisance incidents. I also picked up the US research that mismanagement tends to be found among owners who don't register their dogs (no....not all....nor exclusively so....but the chances are higher). I spelled out, in the final paragraph, how following that up, seriously, could dig out numbers of dogs being mismanaged by owners in a worrisome way. And which could lead to more nuisance or serious problems. What we might lack here.....but the French have....is something in law which requires such owners to step up to learn about and then show competency in managing their dog. Though, I notice that the more recent Q'ld law covers the right (& importance) of designated authorities to intervene in an 'educational' way re owners' managing of animals.

World's best breed to have as neighbours, too. The description of your girl easily fits the greyhounds next door.

There needs to be two current status categories a dog can be assessed as. One, Nuisance....and two, Dangerous. At the moment, 'dangerous' is being declared after the fact of serious harm/injury/cause of death. Behaviours that accompany potential to be dangerous, would likely have already shown up prior to that crisis...like, .frequently being on the loose, seriously menacing incidents etc. This indicates the dog is currently a Nuisance. What is needed is a system that takes such reports seriously, assesses owner's management and assesses the dog's behaviour. As I said before, I like the French system which has the power to haul the owner in and require that the person undertakes and obtains a Certificate of Competency in managing their dog. It also has the power to require that a behavior vet assesses the dog. Also the French system requires that each puppy has an ID number that identifies its source & which can track course of life. That allows cross-referencing. And there should be collection of statistics by the authorities on features surrounding reported incidents with dogs....which includes variables like area , or whether the dog is registered or not....and owner characteristics. Interesting to see if the same pattern emerges here as in the US...serious dog problems tend to be found with owners who don't register them. Then, if the authorities get serious about following up unregistered dogs, they may stumble on a number of dogs who have current worrying behaviours, and /or who are being mismanaged by their owners in a worrying way. At that point, the French system would model the next steps...