Rusky

ask monty roberts about that, actually ask my mate who has been breaking horses in for years.... Tess did you really attend a seminar? you must have been asleep. I believe the lady in question is as we speak at Yellowstone where she has spent many many days, weeks and months observing the wolf packs. Monty roberts breaks a horse with no punishment in 20 minutes. There was no 24 hour constant... he let the horse return to the herd, it went and then returned to him 24 hours later of its own free will.

way too much paving in yards these days :rolleyes: She will get the idea and it might help to get a friends male dog on lead to pee where you want your girl to go, sometimes that works. Your girl will then go and cover the pee, worth a try. Someone on here a few years ago had a great recipe for cleaning and removing smell from pavers. I used it when my dog was locked in the patio area for a few days when we moved to a new place till the fences were sorted. I know it was cheap mouthwash, washing up liquid and lemon ammonia but can't remember the quantities. It was mixed together in a 10 litre bucket of water and then I scrubbed the pavers, smell gone, marks gone it worked.

this is a good article on the dominance theory. The Dominance Theory By Norma Jeanne Laurette Let me begin by saying I was taught the “dominance” theory - as it pertains to our pet dog's and their interactions with us, their guardians. Within my first year of instructing dog training classes, I stopped using choke chains, pinch (prong) collars, alpha rolls and all use of force or physical punishment because I quickly realized the potential harm the use of these tools could o to a dog. This potential for harm is not only physical and psychological, it can destroy the trust our dogs have in us, and as a result, the bond between a dog and its owner may be corrupted. Since trust and respect are sides of the same coin, I feel the dog's trust in its owner must be protected at all cost. Along the same lines, I no longer use the word “obedience” in association with training due to its basic meaning according to The Oxford Dictionary, “submissive to another's will”. At that point in my career, I didn't realize there were many trainers already using positive methods. I was convinced I was the only one in my city with the beliefs I held, and I felt very much alone. Since then, I have met so many of like-mind, and I've learned so much, and continue to learn everyday. I'm happy to say, my city now consists almost totally of “positive”trainers. Although I no longer taught the use of tools or techniques that involved pushing or punishing, I did teach the “dominance” theory and the importance of “leading the pack”. Over the past few years this theory has been challenged, and as a result, I renewed my research on the subject. Because of what this research revealed, at this time, I no longer agree with the “dominance” concept. Here's why. There is a common belief among dog owners and trainers alike, that dogs will challenge their owners in attempt to rise in rank, and lead the pack. This theory has been around for decades, and although still popular, many of the top canine behaviour experts now believe this concept to be incorrect, and assert that we have misinterpreted the dog's motivation by interpreting the dog’s behaviour in that manner. Dog owners and trainers alike often use the “dominance” theory to explain a variety of canine behaviours. Trainers often use this theory to justify both the use of aversive tools and physical techniques designed to over-power the dog, with the objective of intimidating the dog into subservience in order to stop unwanted “dominant” behaviours. This type of “training” works by virtue of the concept that the dog becomes afraid to “behave” in particular ways for fear of punishment. Unfortunately, this has cost many dogs their lives. “Dominance exercises” have been known to cause aggression and other unwanted behaviour that result in euthanasia. In one case, a trainer in Florida actually killed a dog while attempting to force it into submission. After muzzling the dog and sitting on it for over an hour, the dog lost consciousness and later that day, had to be euthanized due to its injuries. R10 The concept of “ranking” comes from the idea that a wolf will challenge another of similar rank, hopefully winning the challenge, thereby gaining higher status, and eventually, leading the pack. Many believe this behaviour has been passed down over thousands of years, affecting the behaviour of domestic dogs and their interactions with their human guardians. R1 In reality, only “unacquainted” wolves living in captivity behave in a manner that appears as though they are competing for “status”, due to confined artificially created territories. R7 In my opinion, this is just another example of wolves being forced to compete for limited resources, such as food and mating rights. Wolf packs living in the wild are dominated by one alpha male and female breeding pair, who guide and protect their cubs. R9 As soon as they are old enough to mate, these cubs will leave the pack to find mates, and raise families of their own. This would mean that every wolf healthy enough, and able to find a mate, will be “alpha” at one time or another during its lifespan, but only when raising its young. During the socialization period of development, a puppy is imprinted with recognition of its own species. As a result, dogs do not identify humans as “canines” or “pack members”, because we smell, think and behave differently. R2 According to John Fisher, because we are not perceived as dogs by dogs, they will not compete with us for rank. R3 With “alpha” position comes the responsibility of providing for the pack and because we provide everything the dog needs, such as food, shelter etc., it would be counter-productive for a dog to challenge us for “alpha” position. R4 According to Coppinger, R6 dogs became isolated from their wild ancestors long ago resulting in a new species, the Canis Familiaris - the domestic dog. Although some wolf-like behaviours remain in the domestic dog, since they are a different species, it's not realistic to assume all dog behaviours will be the same as those of the wolf. However, if we choose to compare domestic dogs' behaviour to it's natural ancestors, it only makes sense that we should compare it to the wild wolf, not wolves attempting to survive in the face of human interference. R5 Every behaviour blamed on “dominance” is normal in canine terms and can be explained by simple motivation and reinforcement. It's quite simple, dogs want good things. R11 If you saw a $100 bill lying in the street would you not pick it up? Why then is a dog helping itself to your dinner “dominant”?, when they are scavengers by nature. It's not a “dominant” dog that takes your food, it's a normal dog doing what comes naturally to its species. This is what I believe now; one of the few commonalities between dogs and humans is – some are more assertive than others. Dogs that are more assertive will try harder to obtain valued resources, be it attention, food, comfortable sleeping places, freedom to run and explore etc. Dogs that are less assertive are quicker to relinquish the resource to a more assertive dog or human. Since it's about the resource, it stands to reason – if you can control what the dog values, you can control the dog. An assertive dog is more of a challenge to train, but it has nothing to do with dominance. Although it may seem as though we are “splitting hairs” with terminology, the main difference is this. According to The Oxford Dictionary, “Dominance” means “in control over a group” and “assertive” means “to insist”. An assertive dog is challenging a person or another dog to win resources that it wishes to control, not in order to control the other person or dog; therefore, a dog’s competing for a desired resource has nothing to do with ranking. The bottom line is this: if we want dogs to behave in a manner that is not natural to it's species then we have to control the environment to prevent the natural - yet unwanted behaviour. In order to do so, we have to teach new behaviours and reinforce them. Although dogs need guidance to be good companions, “dominating” them has proven to be counter-productive at the very least, and extremely abusive at its worst. It's time for us to teach those around us, dog owners and dog trainers alike, to stop blaming, labelling and punishing dogs with a “dominance” tag. When the world becomes aware that it is not only easier, but also more productive, to teach instead of punish, only then will the world be a more humane place for dogs. References R1 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 4 – Dominance: Where Does It Come From? R2 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 4 – Pack Theory R3 - Diary of a Dotty Dog Doctor, John Fisher 1997 R4 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 5 – Pack Theory R5 - Dominance Fact or Fiction?, Barry Eaton 2002, Page 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules R6 - The Domestic Dog, Edited by James Serpell 1999 R7 - Dominance Fact or Fiction? Barry Eaton 2002, Page 6 and 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules R8 - Dominance Fact or Fiction? Barry Eaton 2002, Page 7 – Origins Of The Pack Rules R9 - Alpha Status, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs, David Mech, 2000 R10 - http://www.palmbeachpost.com/pbcentral/con...addog_0719.html R11 – The Power of Positive Dog Training, Pat Miller, Howell Book House, Wiley Publishing Inc., 2001

Exactly the same for me except we had a system set by Malaga and it was the vets who did the testing, they wouldn't use a trainer as we didn't use their training programme. A few fights along the way and almost lost one dog as he failed the set guidelines but a test by another vet the next day which I attended the dog passed with flying colours.

I am saying that the dogs were trained using positive punishment and they had fear aggression. You should know that fear can start at 11 weeks, these dogs were adult dogs not puppies. I am sad that you didn't have a good experience with positive training sometimes people who change from PP to PR based training have a few problems, I am assuming that you were a trainer prior to RSPCA somewhere. Maybe I know you?

I believe all dogs can be trained with positive reinforcement so yes we will have to agree to disagree. I know many people with dogs with fear aggression who have been trained using positive punishment, they are very happy there is another way and are enjoying great success in rehabilitating their dogs. I guess we have the same stories.

sorry it wasn't my point it was someone elses. I clarified a pack. I will try and find the comment and add with an edit. cosmolo my idea of positive training does not mirror the RSPCA from 5 years ago. I don't have the pack now to quote from. I think they just about now use Honey Gross Richardsons plan or if not it is very very similar. I was quite impressed, however, what happens in the shelter and what happens in the training classes for the masses can and will be quite different so perhaps that is where we are coming unstuck. I always hated the temperament testing. I thought it was unfair and certainly with home based foster care dogs which were pound pick up to immedite testing, very tough, also depended on the particular vet on the particular day.... I don't like the RSPCA.. I don't like them at all. I do agree with their blog post. I disagree with Mark. All dogs can be trained using positive reinforcement. I do agree that dogs are abused and neglected, are fearful and aggressive and end up in pounds and shelters, that is not the fault of the pound or the shelter, those dogs have already been let down by humans. Shelters and rescue right now are bursting at the seams. It is dump a dog season. Don't blame the shelters, don't blame the pounds, blame this stupid throw away society who chuck out their SWF and their large cross breed because it interferes with their lifestyle, because they can't be bothered with training, because it is easier to go and buy a new cute fluffy while the old christmas present languishes abused and afraid in the shelter. stinks doesn't it?

cosmolo I disagree. I had the programme in my hand, was asked to run one, it was not a positive reinforcement training programme. I am sorry I don't know what else to say to you. Maybe your take on positive reinforcement is not mine... I don't know. I know it is now a positive programme, my daughter in law took her dog

Do you mean RSPCA dogs? they haven't been using positive reinforcement till fairly recently, they used a sort of barkbusters programme. I think you guys call it 'balanced training' I think also that the temperament testing, well I know... is the decider and it is most unfair. Can I see the dog which has serious aggression caused by poorly timed rewards please?

Ok - not picking on Rusky in particular (for that matter, not 'picking' on anyone) ..... but I'm interested to know from those who DO agree with the RSPCA's letter contents ..... RSPCA will pts for behaviours that CANNOT be turned around by method of the passive punishment it speaks of, but which in liklihood (at least for some of those poor dogs) the methods Mark speaks of may well have identified some success sufficiently to allow re-homing. When you consider this, can you really agree with the RSPCA ??? Don't pick on me Erny I might cry They have a long way still to go, well I would like the whole organisation to be disbanded... It is very very recent that they are using positive reinforcement I guess you could say then that positive punishment has failed miserably in the RSPCA since their PTS rates in Eastern states is deplorable, absolutely deplorable...

oh Tess come on, the lady spends weeks and months studying the animals on location, studying tapes, talking to the people who have become personal friends who spend their entire lives studying wolf behaviour... I think that puts her out in front... in front of Mark too I guess My original Jan Fennel comment was directed at Mark who said Jan Fennel does use a lifestyle with dogs completely adapted from wolf behaviour. Yes of course dogs are pack animals but a pack can be 2... you and your dog. I didn't realise that the 80% was a figure but I knew they shared 97% DNA. I can't see any reason for positive punishment. I have read all there is to read... I even read some of the stuff posted on DOL

I am not a lover of the RSPCA but I agree absolutely with the response from them, well apart from the wolf bit... If Mark wants to do a bit more wolf research he can find a whole lifestyle with dogs based on wolf pack behaviour on Jan Fennels website. I also think and have for many years that a treat delivered with bad timing is much better option for the dog than badly and incorrectly delivered positive punishment. I live in WA all affiliated all breed clubs now use positive reinforcement training. Some breed clubs are still using positive punishment but the numbers decrease constantly. I am happy that the RSPCA has finally embraced positive training.

I don't know the current legal requirements. I am sure someone can advise you.

No clubs use prong collars in WA. You won't be turned away, you will be asked to remove the collar. I don't know what else to tell you.

sorry Katie there aren't any clubs in WA that use prong collars

yes they can apply to any breed but because man has selectively bred traits which are desirable for certain conditions, work or lifestyle those dogs carry inherited traits which may and often can be breed specific. When these traits are not met by the owner then they can develop into breed specific problems such as chase, nipping, digging, pulling, following a scent, etc etc. All dogs need the same leadership, food, shelter and hopefully love, grooming,fun and vet care but how we take care of these basic requirements and how we address the breed specific traits are very important. If someone for instance has a Jack which chases rabbits and runs down holes then people with breed specific solutions would be well worth listening to for alternative rewards to the dogs basic instinct.

myszkas solution and reasons for howling are correct. It is simple, dog is lonely it is howling for a reply, looking for company. Bringing the dog inside will fix the problem. Why can't the dog be inside?

I would only use a crate as his safe place, for sleeping and maybe use a laundry or similar room for time out. Crate him when you go out but in an area away from the other dogs, give him toys in there to chew a comfy rug and water. He is a lovely looking dog, you have some pretty dogs in your rescue group. Have you tried throwing treats into the crate, throw them and don't shut him in, do a gradual introduction so he understands crate means safe/good place. Make sure Beau is taught the rules of being in a house, when he is calm and quiet he can be praised and cuddled and allowed to stay, if he is racing round like a lunatic it is not acceptable and he goes to the laundry or similar for a bit of time out. I certainly would not leave him unsupervised in the home right now, but he will improve and learn.

you got excellent advise from everyone but you aren't listening

you read all of it? including all the link articles? you read educated expert opinions and disagreed with most of what they said? ok

If you are up for a bit of reading then look at this article by Jean Donaldson http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

informal loose lead walking is a happy 'lets go' heeling is a precision excercise normally taught after loose lead walking. You can say anything, you can say 'cauliflower' but be consistant so your pup understands what you want.

Holly may surprise you. In any case take her along and see. If you want to enjoy a sport with your dog you don't need any particular breed. If you want to compete seriously and competitively then look to working border collies who move faster than a speeding bullet You have to learn too though so Holly may well be the perfect dog.

congrats to all the dogs and handlers

Kitty I have a rescue pup here that refuses to eat raw meat. He isn't a young pup, around 9 months, small cross breed. He won't eat puppy kibble, he likes puppy pet roll. I cook his chicken or turkey mince,he eats it then, he will chew a bone but not with gusto...take it or leave it. He refuses rice and most vegetables. I tried the take away no eat theory I have always and forever put forward to others. He didn't eat and is already skinny. It is my guess he ate human leftovers but for whatever reason he goes against everything I believed. I give him what he enjoys and eats and try gradually to introduce other foods. He is vet checked and healthy, just a pain in the food department. I am now following a really old plan from a breeder which came with one of my dogs. Cooked mince, chicken neck at this age, grated vegies and I try the top quality puppy kibble but he doesn't like it so for grains I use a chicken puppy roll. Plus the oils etc... I would call your breeder for further feeding advice.