Just Midol Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 There is nothing wrong at all with the methods your puppy preschool is using. Personally, I'd try and lure first now that I actually know how to but there is not a thing wrong with using compulsion, many trainers use it. I use it. . My pup is now 16 wks and I have taught her to drop and sit by luring her into position (she caught on quickly using this method ). She is now pretty solid in the drop position and will stay down with me standing beside her. At training last week the trainer was showing the class how to get their pup to drop and used mine as a demo (never again ). He showed the class the forced method, which my pup wasn't used to, and when she fought him he held her down until she cried. He released her just as I walked towards him to grab her off him, and not wanting to cause a scene in front of the class I left it at that. I just wish people were given the option of luring first and if that doesn't work by all means explore other methods that will work for your particular dog - including forcing if that's what works, but don't start with that method! If he let go when the dog cried then I'd leave instantly. That'd be poor training. I suggest you look at it objectively. The dog wasn't crying because he was being hurt. You can choose to let your dog walk all over you but any decent trainer will persevere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Luring is great - just please make sure that you also get your pup used to all types of physical handling, in case it every needs to be handled or restrained by a vet. It is one of the things that they have found over the years that dogs who have only ever been lured, tend to be more stressed/cannot cope with being handled, merely because it is something that they are not used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Yep, gsdogs comments are a perfect example of dogs throwing a tanty when being physically manipulated for the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobchic Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 I have been watching a HEAP of The Dog Whisperer and he will hold a dog down to show dominance. His shows really remind you of the small things you need to do (such as how you hold yourself) to ensure you remain top dog. I want to be a dog whisperer one day!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 (ps.. are there problems with the heart worm needle?) I suggest you have a look at the research and make up your own mind, but there have been some significant side effects with the Proheart injections. There are some threads on DOL... http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...amp;hl=Proheart http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...amp;hl=Proheart http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...amp;hl=Proheart Just a few... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rish Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I don't give the heartworm injection Ok,this is new's to me ,I have't ever heard of a h/w needle. How long does it last ? Why don't u like it ? I have to mark when they are due for worming,then the next day the h/w tab;s (chewie 1s) And forgetting is so easy at my age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rish Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Just a few... Thanks for that. The 1st link was all i needed to read,look's like the tab's remain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 (edited) It is one of the things that they have found over the years that dogs who have only ever been lured, tend to be more stressed/cannot cope with being handled, merely because it is something that they are not used to. Who is "they"? Do you have a link to that data, I'd be interested to read more about it. Mine both do formal obedience and one is a show dog, so they get plenty of handling with the SFE and judges examination in the show ring. They are good little puppies at the vet as a lot of show dogs are, as they're used to having mouths examined as well as poking and prodding by judges hands. Edited March 24, 2009 by GayleK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobchic Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 I have never heard of a heart worm debate. I had been told the tablets are not as effects as they can be forgotten or missed and then you need to do a heart worm test before commencing treatment. I wonder what the death rate is for the needle vs people who give tabs then forget and complications arise? (probly difficult to get that figure) I read alot of people are stating they are concerned to have their dog pumped full of medication for 12 mths (read in the above links). But isnt it the same as a normal vaccination?? The shot just creates anti bodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 (edited) Yep, gsdogs comments are a perfect example of dogs throwing a tanty when being physically manipulated for the first time. Without knowing any more than what I've told you Midol you are very quick to judge my GSD . At the previous classes my pup attended the puppies were regularly swapped with other puppy owners to get them used to being handled by strangers (to me this is an extremely important part of the socialisation in puppy classes). I take her to work (mechanical repair workshop) and both staff and customers handle her on a daily basis (I actively encourage this ), I take her to the vet and she falls asleep on the examination table -this is hardly a dog prone to throwing "tanty's". I am guilty of teaching my pup using the lure method as it suits her (as I have previously said I have no objection to other methods but this works for my pup). I also have a large male GSD and it suited him too. Why would I force her when she works so well using this method I want a pup that's keen to work (there's that word!!!) for me, not be fearful of being forced when it isn't necessary. Edited March 24, 2009 by gsdog2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 gsdog2, what happens if one day at the vet he needs to be held down and the dog throws a tantrum? He might still throw a tantrum, but if the trainer didn't release till the dog calmed down then the tantrums intensity will be lower. You haven't given a single reason why the trainer should have let go. I'm very quick to judge your GSD. I'd judge one of my dogs just as quickly if they did the same thing. I'd hold them down till they stfu and accepted it. It's not a display of dominance from me (imo) it is simply me teaching him that when I physically place him into a position he must accept that position. Fighting won't achieve anything. Your dog obviously wasn't in pain, or you would have intervened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 But isnt it the same as a normal vaccination?? The shot just creates anti bodies? Nooooo. The active ingredient is a slow release chemical .. ... So this sits in the dog's body.. releasing amounts sufficient to kill the immature heartworm larvae....and other intestinal worms in some animals.. used externally in some animals it also kills mites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 It is one of the things that they have found over the years that dogs who have only ever been lured, tend to be more stressed/cannot cope with being handled, merely because it is something that they are not used to. Who is "they"? Do you have a link to that data, I'd be interested to read more about it. Mine both do formal obedience and one is a show dog, so they get plenty of handling with the SFE and judges examination in the show ring. They are good little puppies at the vet as a lot of show dogs are, as they're used to having mouths examined as well as poking and prodding by judges hands. "They" = Ian Dunbar and possibly Kelly Gorman (cannot remember if she supported this view or not). Dunbar mentioned it at an APDT seminar, in 2007, I think, suggesting that if luring is used, to ensure puppies get used to being handled/manipulated, since it is one of the things they "miss out on" (not necessarily in a bad way) from people not using compulsion. I am sure I have also read similar elsewhere, but don't have any links or data for you, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 gsdog2, what happens if one day at the vet he needs to be held down and the dog throws a tantrum?He might still throw a tantrum, but if the trainer didn't release till the dog calmed down then the tantrums intensity will be lower. You haven't given a single reason why the trainer should have let go. I'm very quick to judge your GSD. I'd judge one of my dogs just as quickly if they did the same thing. I'd hold them down till they stfu and accepted it. It's not a display of dominance from me (imo) it is simply me teaching him that when I physically place him into a position he must accept that position. Fighting won't achieve anything. Your dog obviously wasn't in pain, or you would have intervened. Midol I'll answer your question with a question. Can you tell me why it's so important that my pup accept a total stranger dragging her suddenly by the collar to the ground, and when she struggles he puts both hands across her belly and forces her to lay flat when:- *She allows me to roll her onto her back and stays in that position for as long as I'm willing to stay there (she would sleep in that position in you waited long enough ) *She allows my 21 yr old son to carry her in that same position (on her back, feet up) around the workshop without any fear *She allows the vet to manipulate her hips without any objections. (Having worked in a vet surgery for a number of years I'm not quite sure what you think vets get up to behind closed doors - they're very aware of a dogs pain level and they're certainly not going to shove them to the ground and hold them there). In other words when I place her in "any" position she accepts it, however I don't see the need to do it in quite the same way this trainer chose to do it. By the way I question your comment of dominance I think for certain trainers it is the reason they do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 "They" = Ian Dunbar and possibly Kelly Gorman (cannot remember if she supported this view or not). Dunbar mentioned it at an APDT seminar, in 2007, I think, suggesting that if luring is used, to ensure puppies get used to being handled/manipulated, since it is one of the things they "miss out on" (not necessarily in a bad way) from people not using compulsion. I am sure I have also read similar elsewhere, but don't have any links or data for you, sorry. Not sure what you mean here - my pup is constantly handled . I found the following here:- http://bigheartrescue.com/ppcesarandiandunbar.htm "Rather than leash pops, alpha rollovers, and finger jabs, Dunbar advocates a trusting and respectful relationship, treating dogs as companions and family members as opposed to a lesser species requiring physical dominance. "Ian carried the torch for lure-and-reward training," says Sue Sternberg, founder and owner of Rondout Valley Animals for Adoption" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 guidance and compulsion isn't related to dominance. Your arguments make no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 My pup is now 16 wks and I have taught her to drop and sit by luring her into position (she caught on quickly using this method ). She is now pretty solid in the drop position and will stay down with me standing beside her. At training last week the trainer was showing the class how to get their pup to drop and used mine as a demo (never again ). He showed the class the forced method, which my pup wasn't used to, and when she fought him he held her down until she cried. He released her just as I walked towards him to grab her off him, and not wanting to cause a scene in front of the class I left it at that. I just wish people were given the option of luring first and if that doesn't work by all means explore other methods that will work for your particular dog - including forcing if that's what works, but don't start with that method! A hard lesson learned, never let the instructor use your dog as a demo dog, unless you yourself are 100% happy with their training methods or something like this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I have to say your argument doesn't make sense either . My question was:- "Can you tell me why it's so important that my pup accept a total stranger dragging her suddenly by the collar to the ground, and when she struggles he puts both hands across her belly and forces her to lay flat" - where is the value in that? I hardly think there would be too many dog owners happy to see their dogs treated this way (by someone who has never handled their dog before). Rebanne it's the first and last time it will happen - my only excuse is that it happened so quickly I didn't have time to object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I have been watching a HEAP of The Dog Whisperer and he will hold a dog down to show dominance.His shows really remind you of the small things you need to do (such as how you hold yourself) to ensure you remain top dog. I want to be a dog whisperer one day!! and there's also a disclaimer about using such methods on the show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobchic Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 (edited) the disclaimer is shown whenever he is approaching a aggressive or fearful dog, or when he is holding them down for domminance. I think its ok to improve my posture and the way I interact with my dog without consulting a professional I watched one last night where he held a bulldog down with his thumb under the jaw!! When you know what to do the results are amazing. Is the dog whisperer liked in these forums?? lol What about that english lady that does the dog thing? Edited March 24, 2009 by bobchic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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