Muggles Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 whilst i can definitely see both sides, it doesn't feel right. maybe rescue just isn't for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) at first they thought it was parvo but she was negative??? They put her under an anaesthetic even though they suspected parvo? I would have been waiting until her illness diagnosed and she was well on the raod to recovery before I did anything. However, we really have no idea how the deicsion was made. We are only just speculating. Edited February 9, 2010 by ~Anne~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 The only exceptions to the rule, is when a vet says the dog or bitch is not fit enough to undergo the surgery. They should then remain in foster care until such time as they are fit healthy. Ultimately, it's the vets call, as the professional, if they think a dog is in a fit state for surgery. I don't know about others, but my vet would not put an ill dog under a GA, unless it was life threatening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissindra Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) they like to get them in and out quick. there are never enough carers so there is always time issues. i can see everyones point but aren't there exceptions to the rule. its not like i wanted them to lie to the new owners and say she was desexed, i just wanted them to wait, the vet said if she was going to come into season it would only be a matter of a couple of months.How hard is it to stay in contact with a new owner especially if they are aware of the situation. just want to be clear: If the dog is in good health, then I have no issue with them opening her up to check. If the dog is in poor health (nothing lifethreatening but something treatable, where it's an increased risk for GA complications) they should hold off and keep the dog in care until he/she has recovered. If it is something which wont effect GA/increase risks and the vet is happy, then no need to hold off. If a rescue wants to hold off on a GA the dog should remain in foster care NOT be rehomed in the meantime. Edited February 9, 2010 by Kissindra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loraine Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I would go with a GA if the dog is deemed fir enough by the vet. It is better than having 2 resuce dogs (a bitch and a male) undesexed and sold to the one person Because of these things I too am no longer involved in rescue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Muggles, what if they rehomed the dog and asked the owners to keep in touch. Meanwhile, the dog comes into season and because the owners love her SO much they decide to have just one litter with her... Sorry, but near enough is not good enough. If they aren't sure it's desexed, open it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Did I read right that they had a dog out in foster care with a possible case of Parvo? or had Parvo-like symptoms? and they wanted it desexed and out the door quickly? Ummm... Danger Will Robinson!! I'd disassociate myself from that particular group methinks... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 or what if, as happened to one rescue group a few years ago, they rehomed on the risk that she might or might not be desexed... and she turned out to be in pup, the new owner didn't realise until it was too late to abort, so there was another litter of unwanted puppies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) IMO a 'look see' operation like this is, in these circumstances unethical and I doubt most vets would do it anyway, unnecessary GA, surgery, risk to the dog, expense and other reasonable options available. The desexing status must be determined before rehoming full stop - no excuses. Therefore: A dog with uncertain 'desexed status' must not be rehomed. Therefore this dog is not suitable for rehoming at present, full stop. If she isn't well she is not suitable for rehoming at this time, anyway. Find a vet with an ultrasound. Hold her for a couple of months until she comes into season or not - quick turn arounds of rescue dogs should be a guideline, not a hard and fast rule - if they cannot accomodate this dogs needs they should give her up to a rescue service who can. IMO these are the only ethical options. If the rescue service goes ahead with surgery in these circumstances I'd be out of there - quick smart! Muggles its precisely because you are asking these hard questions that you do belong in rescue!! Stay with it!! Hope this helps you. (Flame suit on!) Edited February 9, 2010 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) I'd go with the ultrasound, if possible. If not that (for whatever their reasoning) then can't they do the GA with the dog being 'more well' and do an internal? IE Do they really have to surgically open her up to see? Pardon my ignorance if this is a really dumb question. Apart from the above, I get the impression from reading that the job has already been done? If so, what was the outcome? ETA: I agree with WM that the best would be to go the extra yards and find someone who could and would provide the ultrasound service. Edited February 9, 2010 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Erny, my understanding is that it is the GA that is risky, not the opening up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Yeah - I realise, and I am very opposed to unnecessary GA and do whatever I can to avoid it, even with a healthy animal. But IF they do go ahead with the GA, being able to check this bitch out without using the surgical knife will mean that her body has to deal only with the affects of the GA (assuming she makes it) and not also with having to heal the surgical wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Yep. Spot on Erny . But the 'find an ultrasound', 'another rescue service' or 'wait it out' are still IMO the best reasonable alternative options. Surgery is unnecessary in these circumstances. IMO. Yeah - I realise, and I am very opposed to unnecessary GA and do whatever I can to avoid it, even with a healthy animal. But IF they do go ahead with the GA, being able to check this bitch out without using the surgical knife will mean that her body has to deal only with the affects of the GA (assuming she makes it) and not also with having to heal the surgical wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Yep. Spot on Erny . But the 'find an ultrasound', 'another rescue service' or 'wait it out' are still IMO the best reasonable alternative options. Surgery is unnecessary in these circumstances. IMO. Agree, WM. Totally. Avoid the unnecessaries if possible, and I don't really understand why that would be an unfathomable task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointees Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 We purchased a GSD girl in 2002, as a family. They opened her up to find she was already desexed. If its a healthy dog, then why not? Its better then having more dogs end up in pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 If it's not a healthy dog, then wait... which seems to be what the OP is having issues with - the rescue want the dogs turned around and out the door as quick as possible so that they can get another out of the pound and into care... not sure I like the inference of that myself... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 If it's not a healthy dog, then wait... which seems to be what the OP is having issues with - the rescue want the dogs turned around and out the door as quick as possible so that they can get another out of the pound and into care... not sure I like the inference of that myself... Does "animal welfare" come into this anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I feel like they were taking the easy option so they could rehome her and forget about it. Once a dog is adopted its ownership changes. You have to do what you have to do before you sell it. It's not about forgetting. It's about following a process. No way in the world would I accept "probably" desexed for a dog that is to be rehomed...if there was not an available vet with ultrasound equipment, then I would have her opened up for a look-see. Unfortunate? Yes, but a lot better than the potential consequences if she is rehomed without checking and it turns out she wasn't desexed after all. i've only been involved in rescue for a few years. obviously i haven't had time to harden up yet. It isn't about being hard. The consequences of getting it wrong are so much harder to take. It's about trying to avoid terrible things happenning. they like to get them in and out quick. there are never enough carers so there is always time issues. i can see everyones point but aren't there exceptions to the rule. its not like i wanted them to lie to the new owners and say she was desexed, i just wanted them to wait, the vet said if she was going to come into season it would only be a matter of a couple of months.How hard is it to stay in contact with a new owner especially if they are aware of the situation. How long is a piece of string? What if they don't want to be contacted? You cannot know the mindset of every person that adopts a dog. IMO a 'look see' operation like this is, in these circumstances unethical and I doubt most vets would do it anyway, unnecessary GA, surgery, risk to the dog, expense and other reasonable options available. The desexing status must be determined before rehoming full stop - no excuses. Therefore:A dog with uncertain 'desexed status' must not be rehomed. Therefore this dog is not suitable for rehoming at present, full stop. If she isn't well she is not suitable for rehoming at this time, anyway. Find a vet with an ultrasound. Hold her for a couple of months until she comes into season or not - quick turn arounds of rescue dogs should be a guideline, not a hard and fast rule - if they cannot accomodate this dogs needs they should give her up to a rescue service who can. IMO these are the only ethical options. If the rescue service goes ahead with surgery in these circumstances I'd be out of there - quick smart! Muggles its precisely because you are asking these hard questions that you do belong in rescue!! Stay with it!! Hope this helps you. (Flame suit on!) I would agree with this, except I would use surgery as a second-last resort. The dog cannot be adopted out undesexed, its status has to be established. Ultrasound is the thing to do. Muggles. Don't be so quick to write off the group. It is unethical not to have a strict desexing rule, and it is ethical to be following a process when working within an organisation. Even if that process requires some improvement. Of course they are under-resourced and do not have enough carers. So I suggest that you might offer to take the dog right now for however long it takes to find out. And you could search around for a vet who can do ultrasounds cheap for rescue. And you could talk to the rescue group about the advantages of using ultrasound instead of exploratory surgery so that they can do this in future, and probably save money and time as well as being better for the dog and for the new adoptor. Just think of how many ways you, just one person, can help overcome this problem you speak of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 There's no point in giving the bitch a GA to determine if she is desexed until she is healthy.The dog cant go to a knew home if she is ill and no one wants to put the dog through any stress until that bit has been sorted out.You wouldnt even go after an ultra sound until she is fit to go because its a waste of money if she is too ill to go home or if she dies from parvo.Personally I think its unlikely its parvo because dogs which have either desexing or C section scars are usually vaccinated.they arent taking the easy way out as just puttingthe dog in a home and assuming the scar is a desexing scar would be less expensive and a quick fix in comparison to checking and paying a vet money first. When rescue send home a dog which they dont know the status on or which is ill or has temperament issues its not just that dog and that family which are impacted. There are a lot of wonderful people who are working their hearts out to promote rescue dogs and if something goes wrong it makes the concept of taking a rescue dog less attractive for people who hear about it.Its not just the reputation of that group its the overall perception of all rescue dogs which get the back wash.Thats why when rescue groups are operating outside of what reputable groups have accepted as best practice they are so hard on them and they wont work withthem because they understand how what one rescue group does can make them look bad too. Each group and every time a dog finds a new home its one cell of a bigger organism and when any group or person cuts corners or compromises on things they shouldnt to get dogs in and out quickly that affects the public perception and the view law makers have on private rescue groups. So for them its not just about the dogs today but the future of rescue and many more dogs given a chance to survive way into the future. Its also a situation sometimes when the group is flat out and hasnt the time to take to to see the questions you may have or how you're feeling to explain what they are up to and chat about why they make some of the decisions they do. Its a good idea before you decide you want to work with one group or another to go after it as if you are interviewing them rather than them just interviewing you so you know before you start what their policies are and how they operate and make their decisions so you know they fit in with your values.If the group is smart they will have a written policy which covers dogs in this situation which they have worked out before they get to it so when its happening its not impacted by one person's emotion or working out what they should do.If thats the case then when you enter the group you can read up on ther policies and know that they have already thought about it and worked through it and decided that even though there may be some variables that because its policy there is no expectation that its open to debate. Its a hard juggling act in rescue to cover all that needs to be done and ensure that the people who are helping out and fostering etc are able to feel safe to talk about issues like this. That they are made to feel part of the team and feel they have someone to chat to about how they feel and get their questions answered - their thoughts discussed so they too understand why things happen the way they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggles Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 IMO a 'look see' operation like this is, in these circumstances unethical and I doubt most vets would do it anyway, unnecessary GA, surgery, risk to the dog, expense and other reasonable options available. The desexing status must be determined before rehoming full stop - no excuses. Therefore:A dog with uncertain 'desexed status' must not be rehomed. Therefore this dog is not suitable for rehoming at present, full stop. If she isn't well she is not suitable for rehoming at this time, anyway. Find a vet with an ultrasound. Hold her for a couple of months until she comes into season or not - quick turn arounds of rescue dogs should be a guideline, not a hard and fast rule - if they cannot accomodate this dogs needs they should give her up to a rescue service who can. IMO these are the only ethical options. If the rescue service goes ahead with surgery in these circumstances I'd be out of there - quick smart! Muggles its precisely because you are asking these hard questions that you do belong in rescue!! Stay with it!! Hope this helps you. (Flame suit on!) thanks westimum, i was feeling well and truly out numbered. the flame suit is a already a little singed but still useable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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