Multigeneration Labradoodle?

[quoll]

I think that the Labradoodle is here to stay in fact given a few more years we may well see it as a breed.

There are now and have been for some time records kept on the labradoodles, mating, stud books, what we refer to as pedigrees.

There are responsible breeders who really do care for these dogs and are working hard to health test and select from the best specimens. The breed standard may be an issue, as another posted already covered.

[RubyStar]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

And what if they want a lab temperament and not the lab coat so get a labradoodle but they get the poodle temperament and the lab coat?

Just a thought ...

You mean a smartarse dog that sheds like nothing on earth?

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I don't think anyone was having a go at a Poodle temperament or how smart they are.

[Janba]

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I've never seen a poodle with a herding title, at least not in this country as they are not an eligable breed.

[Sheridan]

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I've never seen a poodle with a herding title, at least not in this country as they are not an eligable breed.

Why?

[Janba]

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I've never seen a poodle with a herding title, at least not in this country as they are not an eligable breed.

Why?

Under ANKC regulations the eligable breeds are Group 5, plus Bernese Mountain Dog, Canaan Dog, Keeshond, Kerry Blue Terrier, Norwegian Elkhound, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, Tibetan Terrier, Standard Schnauzer, Giant Schnauzer and Rottweiller. All breeds who have a history of herding. It is much like gundog trials are restricted to gundogs.

[GoldenGirl85]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

And what if they want a lab temperament and not the lab coat so get a labradoodle but they get the poodle temperament and the lab coat?

Just a thought ...

You mean a smartarse dog that sheds like nothing on earth?

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I don't think anyone was having a go at a Poodle temperament or how smart they are.

I think the push for 'Lab temperament' is because we all know that Labs are the "perfect family pet" add on the "hypoallergenic" factor and you have the perfect family pet for todays allergy free lifestyle

[lovemesideways]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

And what if they want a lab temperament and not the lab coat so get a labradoodle but they get the poodle temperament and the lab coat?

Just a thought ...

You mean a smartarse dog that sheds like nothing on earth?

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I don't think anyone was having a go at a Poodle temperament or how smart they are.

I think the push for 'Lab temperament' is because we all know that Labs are the "perfect family pet" add on the "hypoallergenic" factor and you have the perfect family pet for todays allergy free lifestyle

More like todays lazy ass don't want to have to clean up after the dog environment

[GoldenGirl85]

I've seen it mentioned a few times that the labradoodle is only being bred for looks (ie as opposed to the more 'legitimate' purpose working ability) however it's important to remember that the lab is one of the most popular and well known breeds so if people want a lab temperament but not the lab coat what do they do? People always suggest other breeds with non shedding coats but to my understanding most if not all of those breeds do not share the temperament of the labrador.

Just a thought that temperament and coat suitability for a pet might be just as legitimate a purpose as working ability given that a lot of the 'work' of most dogs these days involves being a pet.

And what if they want a lab temperament and not the lab coat so get a labradoodle but they get the poodle temperament and the lab coat?

Just a thought ...

You mean a smartarse dog that sheds like nothing on earth?

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I don't think anyone was having a go at a Poodle temperament or how smart they are.

I think the push for 'Lab temperament' is because we all know that Labs are the "perfect family pet" add on the "hypoallergenic" factor and you have the perfect family pet for todays allergy free lifestyle

More like todays lazy ass don't want to have to clean up after the dog environment

lol, got that in one

Honestly though Id rather have a dog that needs a weekly brush and a weekly Dyson on the floor instead of a dog that needs daily grooming and clipping how ever often its needed (never owned a coated breed lol)

[Sheridan]

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I've never seen a poodle with a herding title, at least not in this country as they are not an eligable breed.

Why?

Under ANKC regulations the eligable breeds are Group 5, plus Bernese Mountain Dog, Canaan Dog, Keeshond, Kerry Blue Terrier, Norwegian Elkhound, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, Tibetan Terrier, Standard Schnauzer, Giant Schnauzer and Rottweiller. All breeds who have a history of herding. It is much like gundog trials are restricted to gundogs.

Still doesn't explain why. History of herding, so what? Doesn't mean another breed can't herd.

[Janba]

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I've never seen a poodle with a herding title, at least not in this country as they are not an eligable breed.

Why?

Under ANKC regulations the eligable breeds are Group 5, plus Bernese Mountain Dog, Canaan Dog, Keeshond, Kerry Blue Terrier, Norwegian Elkhound, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, Tibetan Terrier, Standard Schnauzer, Giant Schnauzer and Rottweiller. All breeds who have a history of herding. It is much like gundog trials are restricted to gundogs.

Still doesn't explain why. History of herding, so what? Doesn't mean another breed can't herd.

It doesn't mean that another breed can't herd and do it well - at one of the clubs I train at a SBT trains and does a fair job. You hear stories of all sorts of breeds that work on properties and do a good job.

It is just that under ANKC regulations a poodle can't have earned a herding title the same as my dalmation can't earn a gundog title no matter how well she retrieves.

ETA It is like saying you have a limited reigister dog who has a conformation championship

Edited September 5, 2010 by Janba

[WoofnHoof]

Not sure I agree with this. Often (in the buyers mind) the 'non shedding' coat is a matter of convenience rather than necessity. If they are wanting a lab without the coat then they are obviously not wanting a lab after all and should look for a more suitable breed. Chances are that if they do buy a labradoodle then not only will it still shed but the coat will be a LOT more work for them.

Think about it, if something as minor as a shedding coat is going to be an inconvenience for someone what's the rest of the dog going to be?

If the non shedding coat is a genuine necessity (due to owner suffering severe allergies, asthma, etc.) then you would think they would be spending a great deal of time looking into suitable breeds that are guaranteed not to shed - it is their health after all.

A shedding coat is a big inconvenience for a lot of people, believe me having a husky some people actually notice dog hair, obviously I don't until it's pointed out that I have hair all over my back from sitting in the same chair as the dog Still, whether I agree with it or not the fact is that some people can't cope with a lot of shed hair and it doesn't mean that they wont love their dog just because they don't want to develop an intense relationship with their vacuum cleaner

And what if they want a lab temperament and not the lab coat so get a labradoodle but they get the poodle temperament and the lab coat?

Just a thought ...

That's the point of selective breeding, to create a breed which suits a purpose both in temperament and coat type. The fact that there are mavericks and that the serious ones aren't able to produce consistent results at the moment does not mean they never will. A breed with this kind of mix is going to take a hell of a long time to achieve stability if it's at all possible, it may not be possible and it may not even be ethical in this day and age to produce so many duds in the pursuit of the goal, my point is that ultimately those people passionate about developing the breed and creating a dog that breeds true are no different to the people who developed breeds 100s of years ago.

Poodlemum the point is not that there is anything wrong with the temperament of poodles, but the lab is known and well regarded for it's temperament it's an extremely popular breed, and it seems that it's prevalence as a service dog suggests that it is a breed that can adapt to many different environments which would have contributed to it's popularity.

Whether it's perception or reality that is their status within the general community.

[Red Fox]

Not sure I agree with this. Often (in the buyers mind) the 'non shedding' coat is a matter of convenience rather than necessity. If they are wanting a lab without the coat then they are obviously not wanting a lab after all and should look for a more suitable breed. Chances are that if they do buy a labradoodle then not only will it still shed but the coat will be a LOT more work for them.

Think about it, if something as minor as a shedding coat is going to be an inconvenience for someone what's the rest of the dog going to be?

If the non shedding coat is a genuine necessity (due to owner suffering severe allergies, asthma, etc.) then you would think they would be spending a great deal of time looking into suitable breeds that are guaranteed not to shed - it is their health after all.

A shedding coat is a big inconvenience for a lot of people, believe me having a husky some people actually notice dog hair, obviously I don't until it's pointed out that I have hair all over my back from sitting in the same chair as the dog Still, whether I agree with it or not the fact is that some people can't cope with a lot of shed hair and it doesn't mean that they wont love their dog just because they don't want to develop an intense relationship with their vacuum cleaner

If they can't cope with the amount of hair a particular breed is going to shed they should look at a different breed. Not a magic crossbreeding cure for the perfect non-shedding coat.

I'm willing to bet that most owners don't like being covered in dog hair 24/7, but it's the sacrifice you make to own the breed you desire

No dog is going to be 100% "convenient" regardless of breed or coat type

I should also add that yes I do think that the Labradoodle will eventually become a recognised breed. But I still think it's a long way off and that too many people choose this "breed" for the wrong reasons.

[Gayle.]

The thing with the "non-shedding" coat is that a lot of people who don't own dogs, or are looking for their first dog, assume non-shedding means no work. They do not know that all non-shedding coats need very regular brushing and clipping to stay nice. That particular fact needs to be more widely publicised.

[WoofnHoof]

If they can't cope with the amount of hair a particular breed is going to shed they should look at a different breed. Not a magic crossbreeding cure for the perfect non-shedding coat.

I'm willing to bet that most owners don't like being covered in dog hair 24/7, but it's the sacrifice you make to own the breed you desire

No dog is going to be 100% "convenient" regardless of breed or coat type

I should also add that yes I do think that the Labradoodle will eventually become a recognised breed. But I still think it's a long way off and that too many people choose this "breed" for the wrong reasons.

I know what you are saying and to a certain extent I agree with you that people should be aware that some combinations may not be perfect or even possible but if the combination of the wooly coat and lab temp is achievable I see no real difference between the development of this breed and the development of many other breeds.

It's very easy to say choose another breed but how many non shedding breeds have the laid back temp of the lab? The ones I've seen suggested in threads are often very high drive breeds which may not necessarily suit the average owner. The ones that would should be promoted as such if they fit the criteria for the average owner.

The thing with the "non-shedding" coat is that a lot of people who don't own dogs, or are looking for their first dog, assume non-shedding means no work. They do not know that all non-shedding coats need very regular brushing and clipping to stay nice. That particular fact needs to be more widely publicised.

I agree that the facts about the coat do need to be more widely publicised, in the end it should come down to which coat type is more suitable for an owner not which one is easiest but coat type is often going to be a factor in the decision and obviously it's becoming more of a factor than it has in the past. Breeds exist for human convenience for good or for ill and since more owners are making coat type a big part of their buying decision it's inevitable that breeds will be developed to suit this niche whether we like it or not.

The public does need to be aware that they cannot 'order' the perfect dog to their specifications but if we denigrate them for wanting a certain type of dog and say if they can't meet our high standards of ownership dont own a dog what will be the ultimate result? Either they will listen and only a small segment of dog enthusiasts will own dogs, or they will do what

they want anyway but if we hinder the development of a breed which may be suitable then people will continue to buy dogs which are unsuitable and in the end the dogs suffer.

I don't know whether the development of a labradoodle is a good or a bad thing for dogs and dog ownership or whether it is just pandering to a public that is less tolerant of the normal aspects of dog ownership but I do think it's inevitable that it will be recognized in the end so there is no point trying to convince the public that they are terrible for wanting one or convincing them that all DD breeders are the spawn of Satan who care nothing for their dogs.

[poodlemum]

Seriously, though, people have a strange idea of what the Poodle temperament is. Poodles were, after all, originally bred for water retrieving and can still be all-purpose utility dogs. Amongst dogs I have bred are those with Tracking titles, Herding titles & general Obedience titles. Poodles are also VERY people-orientated.

I've never seen a poodle with a herding title, at least not in this country as they are not an eligable breed.

I can assure you, that one of mine DOES have a herding title in Tasmania.

ETA not in conformation shows (which are just beauty contest, as far as I am concerned) but in herding trials

Edited September 5, 2010 by poodlemum

[kiesha09]

If they can't cope with the amount of hair a particular breed is going to shed they should look at a different breed. Not a magic crossbreeding cure for the perfect non-shedding coat.

I'm willing to bet that most owners don't like being covered in dog hair 24/7, but it's the sacrifice you make to own the breed you desire

No dog is going to be 100% "convenient" regardless of breed or coat type ;)

I should also add that yes I do think that the Labradoodle will eventually become a recognised breed. But I still think it's a long way off and that too many people choose this "breed" for the wrong reasons.

I know what you are saying and to a certain extent I agree with you that people should be aware that some combinations may not be perfect or even possible but if the combination of the wooly coat and lab temp is achievable I see no real difference between the development of this breed and the development of many other breeds.

It's very easy to say choose another breed but how many non shedding breeds have the laid back temp of the lab? The ones I've seen suggested in threads are often very high drive breeds which may not necessarily suit the average owner. The ones that would should be promoted as such if they fit the criteria for the average owner.

The thing with the "non-shedding" coat is that a lot of people who don't own dogs, or are looking for their first dog, assume non-shedding means no work. They do not know that all non-shedding coats need very regular brushing and clipping to stay nice. That particular fact needs to be more widely publicised.

I agree that the facts about the coat do need to be more widely publicised, in the end it should come down to which coat type is more suitable for an owner not which one is easiest but coat type is often going to be a factor in the decision and obviously it's becoming more of a factor than it has in the past. Breeds exist for human convenience for good or for ill and since more owners are making coat type a big part of their buying decision it's inevitable that breeds will be developed to suit this niche whether we like it or not.

The public does need to be aware that they cannot 'order' the perfect dog to their specifications but if we denigrate them for wanting a certain type of dog and say if they can't meet our high standards of ownership dont own a dog what will be the ultimate result? Either they will listen and only a small segment of dog enthusiasts will own dogs, or they will do what

they want anyway but if we hinder the development of a breed which may be suitable then people will continue to buy dogs which are unsuitable and in the end the dogs suffer.

I don't know whether the development of a labradoodle is a good or a bad thing for dogs and dog ownership or whether it is just pandering to a public that is less tolerant of the normal aspects of dog ownership but I do think it's inevitable that it will be recognized in the end so there is no point trying to convince the public that they are terrible for wanting one or convincing them that all DD breeders are the spawn of Satan who care nothing for their dogs.

WoofnHoof you are absolutely spot on with everything you have said

I can't stand dog hair everywhere and therefore I have a non-shedding breed. It doesn't make me a lazy ass or irresponsible owner whose dog is an inconvenience. In fact it means that I probably spend more time brushing & grooming than owners with shedding dogs. This is my preference and I'm happy to do that.

I don't think its fair though for people to be so stereotypical with a holier than thou attitude to people who want a non-shedding dog. My best friend has a lab and would love it if he didn't shed so she could spend more time exercising, playing and training and less time vacuuming which certainly isn't a bad thing!

I think labradoodles are here to stay and the educated dog community would be better off offering their experience and wisdom to ensure that this breed is developed ethically and the right way rather than fighting it and continuously putting up road blocks because this is how the breed development will end up in the hands of byb's.

[Aidan]

Poodlemum the point is not that there is anything wrong with the temperament of poodles, but the lab is known and well regarded for it's temperament it's an extremely popular breed, and it seems that it's prevalence as a service dog suggests that it is a breed that can adapt to many different environments which would have contributed to it's popularity.

Whether it's perception or reality that is their status within the general community.

We should also not forget that originally they were using Labs from proven seeing eye dog lines, so it wasn't that they wanted the "lab temperament" as such, but they wanted a proven line of many, many generations of selective breeding for these particular traits.

The BYB or commercial breeder slapping any old Lab and any old Poodle together is obviously not achieving this, whether they are taking advantage of buyer ignorance or not is another concern.

[Sheridan]

It's very easy to say choose another breed but how many non shedding breeds have the laid back temp of the lab? The ones I've seen suggested in threads are often very high drive breeds which may not necessarily suit the average owner. The ones that would should be promoted as such if they fit the criteria for the average owner.

Where are all these laid back labs? All the ones I know (bar one guide dog, that is) are pretty full on.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Sheridan

[WoofnHoof]

It's very easy to say choose another breed but how many non shedding breeds have the laid back temp of the lab? The ones I've seen suggested in threads are often very high drive breeds which may not necessarily suit the average owner. The ones that would should be promoted as such if they fit the criteria for the average owner.

Where are all these laid back labs? All the ones I know (bar one guide dog, that is) are pretty full on.

I know a few laid back ones and a few full on ones, either way they are one of the most popular breeds so they must be pretty suitable for the vast majority of homes. Maybe the reason the poodle isn't as popular is more about perception than anything else but that is a challenge for poodle breeders and clubs to change if they so desire.

[Sheridan]

It's very easy to say choose another breed but how many non shedding breeds have the laid back temp of the lab? The ones I've seen suggested in threads are often very high drive breeds which may not necessarily suit the average owner. The ones that would should be promoted as such if they fit the criteria for the average owner.

Where are all these laid back labs? All the ones I know (bar one guide dog, that is) are pretty full on.

I know a few laid back ones and a few full on ones, either way they are one of the most popular breeds so they must be pretty suitable for the vast majority of homes. Maybe the reason the poodle isn't as popular is more about perception than anything else but that is a challenge for poodle breeders and clubs to change if they so desire.

Sure, but that's for another thread. You were saying, I got the impression so correct me if I'm wrong, that the reason that people want labradoodles is because of the lab temp but wanted them not to shed. But, as you've said above, not all labs are laid back. They may be a perfect family dog but they're certainly not all laid back. Perhaps they're only considered a perfect family dog because people see perfectly behaved guide dogs and expect to get one of those out of the box.