Mum to Emma Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 "All breeds" maybe, but certainly not all dogs. And definitely not in the circumstances that this woman faced. This morning I heard more of an interview with her given yesterday on radio, and she said that she didn't see or hear the dogs coming as they approached silently from behind. She turned when her dog became aware of them and found that they were right behind, standing separately one either side of her and her dog. Clearly they were stalking with the intention to attack. It must have been terrifying. These dogs weren't provoked in any way, nor were the woman and her JR on their territory. Indeed, their house was 2km away. These dogs are a menace and a danger and should be PTS. I've seen my dog do the same thing to birds and other small wildlife catching his prey eye when we've been out walking, had he been allowed, he certainly would have chased and grabbed these animals. I'm not saying that in this instance with the JRT it was a prey driven attack, but if it was, prey drive is hardly unusual behaviour. IF they saw the dog as a prey item, then just seeing it moving around would have triggered ("provoked") them and it would have had nothing to do with territoriality. I'm not saying that excuses their behaviour but that it's not as rare or unexplainable as you seem to think it is. So do you think it's reasonable that a dog or dogs should routinely attack another dog on sight?? And which of your dogs were you referring to - the husky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) Look in a perfect world you may be right, If my 2 escaped they would love to play with people but people may be scared so that is the dogs fault.. if they saw a large dog off lead they would no doubt run upto it and have a sniff, but can anyone be 100% i think not. What about wildlife do you include this in your thinking? as I can assure you many people with dogs on this forum may have had their beloved pet kill a lizard, snake or bird.. does that mean they are unsafe pets and be PTS? Maybe they were predictable and the owners knew this and housed them correctly.. i'm not entirely sure but the story read as though they didn't know the fence was damaged, if they did then yes shame on them. I agree Geo, my dogs love people & other dogs & if they ever got out all they would want to do is play with them, however when it comes to small wild life then their prey drive certainly takes over. I have witnessed my dogs attack & kill birds & lizards aswell as rodents,& while I certainly don't encourage it, I do understand that they are terriers with high prey drive & I certainly don't consider them unsafe pets or that they should be PTS. Agree with you both. Edited January 4, 2011 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) So do you think it's reasonable that a dog or dogs should routinely attack another dog on sight?? And which of your dogs were you referring to - the husky? That's not what I was implying at all. I was simply saying that, if it was a prey driven attack, it is hardly unnatural or unexplainable as you seem to think there is no logical explanation for why two dogs would have attacked a smaller one in these circumstances. Why does it matter which of my dogs I was referring to? I was simply using it as an example of how easy it is for a prey driven dog to be triggered into prey drive. None of my dogs have ever gone into prey drive at the sight of another dog, but one of them has killed small animals that are a similar size to a small dog and I hardly think that makes a dog unsafe, a menace, or even particularly aggressive. Prey drive in a dog does not make the dog a bad dog, it is simply up to the owners to manage them responsibly. ETA: And where have we heard or seen any evidence that these dogs have "routinely attacked" other dogs? Edited January 4, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 It is very possible for a dog to behave unpredictably and extremely different to usual when placed in circumstances the dog has never been placed in! None of you can guarantee that your dogs would not behave in a different way when out unattended and unsupervised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 It is very possible for a dog to behave unpredictably and extremely different to usual when placed in circumstances the dog has never been placed in! None of you can guarantee that your dogs would not behave in a different way when out unattended and unsupervised. Exactly. I know how my dogs would react in certain situations but not all situations, my chi is dog aggressive but sometimes he surprises me with his ability to blend into a group, my sibe is the friendliest dog around but he and my chi have had 'differences of opinion' and are therefore never left together unsupervised. My sibe does not understand that the chi is much more fragile than he is, nor does he understand that killing mice is fine but not lambs, we are talking about dogs here not people. They are not vicious killers, they are not bloodthirsty savages they are the domesticated version of the grey wolf and share 99.9% of it's DNA, to expect them to have the mental capacity and moral compass that exists in humans is completely illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idigadog Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 It is very possible for a dog to behave unpredictably and extremely different to usual when placed in circumstances the dog has never been placed in! None of you can guarantee that your dogs would not behave in a different way when out unattended and unsupervised. Spot on Cosmolo although I dare say not many people on here would be willing to admit that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxagirl Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 So do you think it's reasonable that a dog or dogs should routinely attack another dog on sight?? And which of your dogs were you referring to - the husky? I don't see why the breed is relevant- as has already been pointed out, the media has misidentified the breed again.- people who has seen photo's have said it was a mal. One of my huskys (the girl) has high prey drive and will chase rabbits/rats etc (not other dogs though). My other boy shows none of this prey drive at all- and is routinely left alone with a chihuahua no problems. It varies with the breed, as with all breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abed Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Ideally, we should be able to own and enjoy a dog abiding by the laws in place and everything should be fine, but unfortunately in this world we live, is not always the case. Roaming and off leash dogs are a major problem where I live is getting worse which takes away the pleasure of walking your dog when on the defensive even when other dogs owners are present. The amount of times with approaching dogs and owners I am straining to see if the dog is leashed as the owner smells the roses on another planet not watching what's going on. A neon sign illuminates above the owners head that say's, "I can't control my dog" and sure enough the dog sees mine, it's off leash and over it charges towards us with the owner in tow yelling and screaming at their dog , but consistant with this thread, a lot of these charging dogs are aggressive and looking for a fight I have a slight buffer personally owning GSD's where I don't have to worry too much about a loose dog causing mine death, but every time this has happened to me, I am thinking if I had a small dog fearing what happened to this little JRT, what a terrifying experience, it's unimaginable the terror that this women went through and the result of what began as a simple walk with your dog :D My middle GSD is not of perfect temperament and can be human and dog aggressive........I know that and although he is well obedience trained, safety with this dog is TOP priority in our lives at ALL times. You can own dogs safely that have aggressive tendencies, but you have to identify it and manage them accordingly and there is no excuse for default IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightonrock Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Some questionable reactions ("screaming") and comments ("it could be a child next time") but very sad nonetheless. ... Would you not scream if your dog had just been ripped from your arms and was being savaged by a pair of larger dogs? I've certainly screamed my lungs out to attract attention/help when approached by an aggressive dog trying to get at mine! Please read the posts. It's not like it's a long thread. I clarified that it was understandable just not ideal. Perhaps it may have aggravated the situation. And no, I'm not defending the dogs that attacked. Goodness! Don't read too deep people We're all experts in hindsight. Only someone used to dealing with this situation would not react in an emotional way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 When your little dog is attacked, you will scream too. Two dogs = 1 pack. Natural pack behaviour includes chasing and attacking smaller animals. It has happened before and will happen again because humans allow it to happen. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 It is very possible for a dog to behave unpredictably and extremely different to usual when placed in circumstances the dog has never been placed in! None of you can guarantee that your dogs would not behave in a different way when out unattended and unsupervised. agree, all the senses would be hightened, mine would be super stressed to find themselves lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I would have no sympathy at all for the attackers and would ask for them to be destroyed. Nice, lovely dogs are destroyed every day in this country in pounds that have never commited such acts of aggression. Why on earth keep dogs that pose a threat to other people's safety? Dogs do escape from yards but most don't ever behave like this. Poor woman and poor jack russell. I totally agree. It doesn't matter who let the dogs out. Unless the owners can guarantee that they will be enclosed 27/4 in the house or in a fully enclosed dog-run and only allowed off the property wearing muzzles, they should be PTS. With this one incident they have proven that they are a danger to other animals and are not suited to an urban environment (and indeed a rural environment where a neighbour would be entitled to shoot the dogs if they threatened livestock). I think every situation has to be dealt with individually and sadly there is no clear cut way to address these incidents. The owners may well be very responsible people and to have their dogs let out by someone else is NOT their fault. We live in an area of lots of roaming dogs and dingoes, and if many of the dogs in the area were let out of their yards could pose a threat to other dogs, especially if their is 2 of them. My friends dogs were let out by school kids walking by!! "Such acts of aggression" are sadly what all dogs are capable of even nice family pets, when people understand that every one will be safer. A very sad situation. If you have a large dog with a high prey drive, then they need to be kept securely - that means high, high fences with locked gates. If that isn't enough, then secure dog runs with concrete floors etc. If school kids could let your friends dogs out, then they weren't very secure in the first place. I own a dog with issues. That means that I need to be 10000% more responsible than the average dog owner. All walks need to be planned ahead. My dog gets securely crated before anyone comes into the house. I have a two-gated front door so she can't accidentally get out etc. And she is a mini schnauzer who couldn't do much damage if she tried. If people want to own dogs that can do a lot of damage then the need to step up to the plate. People seem to think that PTS is all about fault and punishment. Sorry to say it but some dogs just aren't cut out to live in suburbia with many people, dogs, cats etc living in close proximity. It isn't always about fault but the safety of the community. A kid could have been hurt if they had been walking their JRT and tried to save it. I agrew Wineterpaws - if an offleash dog ever attacks mine then I will make sure that the owners spend a lot of money and time on lawyers - even though I have a low chance of getting any $ out of it. regardless of how they got out. they are killers. i have had dogs come onto my place and they did not even go near my animals let alone kill, others have killed every chook i had. one of my dogs only survived because being tiny he crawed under a cupboard in our shed and the labrador intent on killing him coudlnt get hold of him although he almost died of shock anyway. it had to climb a 3 foot fence to get to mine. one of mine got into the chook yard the other day and very proudly removed some feathers and brough them to me.. she didnt kill the bird. so dogs dont automatically kill when the opportunaity presents, it is not an automatic response in a loose dog.. others certainly do. ever since i was kid the rules were , once a dog has killed it is a killer. and round where i grew up it meant the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I wish people understood things like bite inhibition, prey drive objects and triggers, prey drive thresholds and physiological response to prey drive, the effect of stress on behaviour etc. Would make these discussions a whole lot easier and more productive. When comments are made along the lines of 'dogs being dogs'- it does NOT excuse the behaviour. But it also removes dogs such as these from the relms of uncontrollable, unpredictable, savage, wild etc and brings them back to what they are- dogs with genetics, drives and thresholds like every other dog in the world. I find it very interesting that some of the people who are very outspoken with regards to retaining traditional physical traits of various dogs, speak to eliminating traditional physiological and temperament related traits of dogs. Its such a paradox. The sooner we start accepting that it is normal for dogs to have prey drive, defence drive etc- the sooner we can start talking about how to socialise and train in a way that appropriately keeps such things maintained in a socially acceptable way. Dogs are not robots and we shouldn't be trying to make them into one! We regularly take natural traits in a dog and mould them to our liking- house training, stopping mounting, mouthing etc. Its the fact that people expect dogs to show no aggression ever that leads to no discussion regarding the moulding of dogs drives (because of course "my dog would never do that") and subsequent lack of understanding when a dogs instinctual drive results in a very unfavourable AND devastating situation . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I wish people understood things like bite inhibition, prey drive objects and triggers, prey drive thresholds and physiological response to prey drive, the effect of stress on behaviour etc. Would make these discussions a whole lot easier and more productive. When comments are made along the lines of 'dogs being dogs'- it does NOT excuse the behaviour. But it also removes dogs such as these from the relms of uncontrollable, unpredictable, savage, wild etc and brings them back to what they are- dogs with genetics, drives and thresholds like every other dog in the world. I find it very interesting that some of the people who are very outspoken with regards to retaining traditional physical traits of various dogs, speak to eliminating traditional physiological and temperament related traits of dogs. Its such a paradox. The sooner we start accepting that it is normal for dogs to have prey drive, defence drive etc- the sooner we can start talking about how to socialise and train in a way that appropriately keeps such things maintained in a socially acceptable way. Dogs are not robots and we shouldn't be trying to make them into one! We regularly take natural traits in a dog and mould them to our liking- house training, stopping mounting, mouthing etc. Its the fact that people expect dogs to show no aggression ever that leads to no discussion regarding the moulding of dogs drives (because of course "my dog would never do that") and subsequent lack of understanding when a dogs instinctual drive results in a very unfavourable AND devastating situation . I agree with every word of this, Cos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 regardless of how they got out. they are killers.i have had dogs come onto my place and they did not even go near my animals let alone kill, others have killed every chook i had. one of my dogs only survived because being tiny he crawed under a cupboard in our shed and the labrador intent on killing him coudlnt get hold of him although he almost died of shock anyway. it had to climb a 3 foot fence to get to mine. one of mine got into the chook yard the other day and very proudly removed some feathers and brough them to me.. she didnt kill the bird. so dogs dont automatically kill when the opportunaity presents, it is not an automatic response in a loose dog.. others certainly do. ever since i was kid the rules were , once a dog has killed it is a killer. and round where i grew up it meant the bullet. People will learn alot from Cosmolo's post, dogs do not automatically kill when they see "prey" it's a whole range of things that can set them into drive and when you understand this you can better train your dog. My dogs have killed lizards, they've chased roos, chooks would sure fascinate them, dogs they're ok with but not always.. these things I know so i take precautions for them. Though it certainly won't comfort the poor JRT or the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhou Xuanyao Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Good posts Cosmolo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 dogs they're ok with but not always.. these things I know so i take precautions for them. Though it certainly won't comfort the poor JRT or the owner. It is little consolation for the owner of the JRT but it is a damned fine message to send to EVERY DOG OWNER who takes their dog out in public: Take precautions! Play fair - keep other dogs safe from your dog, and in doing so you will be keeping your dog safe from being PTS. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 regardless of how they got out. they are killers.i have had dogs come onto my place and they did not even go near my animals let alone kill, others have killed every chook i had. one of my dogs only survived because being tiny he crawed under a cupboard in our shed and the labrador intent on killing him coudlnt get hold of him although he almost died of shock anyway. it had to climb a 3 foot fence to get to mine. one of mine got into the chook yard the other day and very proudly removed some feathers and brough them to me.. she didnt kill the bird. so dogs dont automatically kill when the opportunaity presents, it is not an automatic response in a loose dog.. others certainly do. ever since i was kid the rules were , once a dog has killed it is a killer. and round where i grew up it meant the bullet. People will learn alot from Cosmolo's post, dogs do not automatically kill when they see "prey" it's a whole range of things that can set them into drive and when you understand this you can better train your dog. My dogs have killed lizards, they've chased roos, chooks would sure fascinate them, dogs they're ok with but not always.. these things I know so i take precautions for them. Though it certainly won't comfort the poor JRT or the owner. I also want to echo that that was a great post Cosmolo. Earlier in the thread someone said the two dogs "were intent on killing" but I can't remember who it was. Is that even possible? Do dogs understand the concept of life and death? I have sadly seen my dog kill two blue tongue lizards. Yes, he was intent on getting the thing scurrying around in the bushes but how can we say he was intent on killing when he has no concept of life or death. He doesn't understand what killing is, he just wants to get the thing that is moving. Someone else also mentioned that we can't expect dogs to have the same moral compass that humans do. I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I agree Malamum- dogs can't possibly understand morals etc- thats why dogs have owners to (in theory) be responsible for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotwyr Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I agree Malamum- dogs can't possibly understand morals etc- thats why dogs have owners to (in theory) be responsible for them. Yes classic anthropomorphism of animals Dogs don't have morals, ethics, ability to feel any intent etc...... Sadly these dogs are at the mercy of their owners who - having had the council around their place doing work - failed to check to see if their property was still safe for their dogs to run around in without fear of escape. Result = 1 traumatised pet owner and 1 poor JRT who never stood a chance!! I have had siberians for 17 years......anyone who has ever been to any of my properties, as a worker or doing work near by, has had to deal with me being in their face about making sure nothing is done to make it possible for my dogs to escape and if anything is - that they let me know so I can temporarily fix it until they can permanently fix it. It is MY responsibility to check my property to ensure my dogs are securely contained BEFORE I let them out to play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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