BJean Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) it sounds like normal dog behaviour. As someone who often has young, male dogs (and usually entire until they pass all testing), I'd very strongly disagree with this. Posturing is normal, minor spats are acceptable but what the OP described does not sound like normal behaviour to me. Sounds totally NORMAL: Spud sounds normal. Murphy sounds normal. They all just dont get along. <Big deal :) rehome Spud with disclosure and to a suitable home> Hardly a pts situation for two young upcoming males and not even blood drawn. Over the past two/three days our young Bull Arab (Spud, 10mths) has attacked our Dobie/Husky cross (Murphy, 12 mths old)a few times, with absolutely no provocation. The four young dogs spend most of the day running around our large fenced dog yard (about two acres fenced off for them) or sleeping. They play roughly, but well together, however now Spud has attacked Murphy with what looks like real intention. No blood has been drawn, but I am very fearful it may not be far off if we don't address the situation immediately. The OP is experiencing normal pack dynamics. Have dog owners become so removed from what is dog that a 10 month old upcoming male going for the 12 month old male, seems abnormal? OP: What you see and what the dog sees are not the same thing. So now you have learned that two young males which are friends as baby puppies, are often not friends as they become young adults. As an owner of large dogs where DA is not abnormal, I can tell you if there was no blood drawn or physical injury, then the fight was not far up the barometer of serious dog fight. If Spud had a high propensity for DA 1. you would have seen the behaviour earlier 2. the attack would have been more serious It is obvious that Spud and Murphy cannot coexist. It is no shortcoming on your behalf and there is nothing abnormal about the circumstance (okay upsetting yes, but this is what can happen when you have multiple dogs). If it gives you peace of mind, enlist the help of a behaviorist to help you reach a decision, and also to give you a better assessment of your pack dynamics, as it sounds like you would benefit from this also :) NB: Aggression is not a disease. It is not something that is 'fixed', but something that is managed. In your case, management is keeping the two dogs forever separated. Edited September 29, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 it sounds like normal dog behaviour. As someone who often has young, male dogs (and usually entire until they pass all testing), I'd very strongly disagree with this. Posturing is normal, minor spats are acceptable but what the OP described does not sound like normal behaviour to me. Sounds totally NORMAL: Spud sounds normal. Murphy sounds normal. They all just dont get along. <Big deal :) rehome Spud with disclosure and to a suitable home> Hardly a pts situation for two young upcoming males and not even blood drawn. Over the past two/three days our young Bull Arab (Spud, 10mths) has attacked our Dobie/Husky cross (Murphy, 12 mths old)a few times, with absolutely no provocation. The four young dogs spend most of the day running around our large fenced dog yard (about two acres fenced off for them) or sleeping. They play roughly, but well together, however now Spud has attacked Murphy with what looks like real intention. No blood has been drawn, but I am very fearful it may not be far off if we don't address the situation immediately. The OP is experiencing normal pack dynamics. Have dog owners become so removed from what is dog that a 10 month old upcoming male going for the 12 month old male, seems abnormal? OP: What you see and what the dog sees are not the same thing. So now you have learned that two young males which are friends as baby puppies, are often not friends as they become young adults. As an owner of large dogs where DA is not abnormal, I can tell you if there was no blood drawn or physical injury, then the fight was not far up the barometer of serious dog fight. If Spud had a high propensity for DA 1. you would have seen the behaviour earlier 2. the attack would have been more serious It is obvious that Spud and Murphy cannot coexist. It is no shortcoming on your behalf and there is nothing abnormal about the circumstance (okay upsetting yes, but this is what can happen when you have multiple dogs). If it gives you peace of mind, enlist the help of a behaviorist to help you reach a decision, and also to give you a better assessment of your pack dynamics, as it sounds like you would benefit from this also :) NB: Aggression is not a disease. It is not something that is 'fixed', but something that is managed. In your case, management is keeping the two dogs forever separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 With 8 dogs in one home I am going to say that if you cannot manage to fully separate the animals then either start building some facilities that will allow you to do so if the need arises (and it has) or be prepared to rehome dogs that do not fit in. You have large dogs and some young strong dogs who want to test their boundaries and find their way, managing a pack like this takes experience and the ability to observe the very subtle signs that there is stuff going down. Some dogs do not get on, and never will, it is not a disaster it is DOG, and it can be managed if you are prepared to do so. Managing dogs in numbers means you need to be flexible, not all breeds or individuals are happy to go with the all in together in this fine weather scenario. Muzzling a dog does not remove what is going on inside the dogs head, in fact if you continue to leave them together in this way I would bet that all hell is going to break lose, you do not have a BAD dog, you have dogs that need to be managed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 As someone who has 2 adult (desexed) bitches who cannot be allowed together because when they get it into their heads to have a spat it's to the death - I can attest to the fact that it's not that darned hard to keep 2 dogs separated if you have to. Sure, it's a hassle to play switchy swapsy, but it becomes routine pretty quickly for all involved - and neither of my bitches are suffering any lack of one on one time from me or my other dogs. Both girls get on just fine with my other dog (another desexed bitch), and all of my dogs get on fine with the foster pups that come through on a regular basis. They are allowed to spend time with me and the other dogs they arent reactive with, just not with each other. Because I know what both my girls are capable of when pushed, there is no way that I could have rehomed either of them in good conscience. My options were to separate or euth one or both of them - separation was worth trying, and has been very effective for the past few years - and both girls are happy, healthy, and completely well adjusted. You need to have Spud and Murphy (and your whole pack dynamic) assessed by a professional before making any permanent decisions about any of them. If any of your dogs can't be worked with effectively, then you need to start thinking about the other options you have at that point, OK? T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 it sounds like normal dog behaviour. As someone who often has young, male dogs (and usually entire until they pass all testing), I'd very strongly disagree with this. Posturing is normal, minor spats are acceptable but what the OP described does not sound like normal behaviour to me. Sounds totally NORMAL: Spud sounds normal. Murphy sounds normal. They all just dont get along. <Big deal :) rehome Spud with disclosure and to a suitable home> Hardly a pts situation for two young upcoming males and not even blood drawn. Over the past two/three days our young Bull Arab (Spud, 10mths) has attacked our Dobie/Husky cross (Murphy, 12 mths old)a few times, with absolutely no provocation. The four young dogs spend most of the day running around our large fenced dog yard (about two acres fenced off for them) or sleeping. They play roughly, but well together, however now Spud has attacked Murphy with what looks like real intention. No blood has been drawn, but I am very fearful it may not be far off if we don't address the situation immediately. The OP is experiencing normal pack dynamics. Have dog owners become so removed from what is dog that a 10 month old upcoming male going for the 12 month old male, seems abnormal? OP: What you see and what the dog sees are not the same thing. So now you have learned that two young males which are friends as baby puppies, are often not friends as they become young adults. As an owner of large dogs where DA is not abnormal, I can tell you if there was no blood drawn or physical injury, then the fight was not far up the barometer of serious dog fight. If Spud had a high propensity for DA 1. you would have seen the behaviour earlier 2. the attack would have been more serious It is obvious that Spud and Murphy cannot coexist. It is no shortcoming on your behalf and there is nothing abnormal about the circumstance (okay upsetting yes, but this is what can happen when you have multiple dogs). If it gives you peace of mind, enlist the help of a behaviorist to help you reach a decision, and also to give you a better assessment of your pack dynamics, as it sounds like you would benefit from this also :) NB: Aggression is not a disease. It is not something that is 'fixed', but something that is managed. In your case, management is keeping the two dogs forever separated. I agree with this. Keeping dogs separate can be a PITA but it is totally doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I personaly would never have a dog put to sleep without a Behavioural assessement. Spud may very well be more than happy to live with a bitch and granted he passes a behavioral assessement should be given that opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I run dogs separately here, I don't see how it's an issue if you have a set up for it. It's my choice and they don't fight so it's not an issue if they did get out together so I don't have to be as diligent as some but it's really not difficult to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I had 2 males who had to kept separated for 14 years, totally doable, neither one missed out on anything BUT all members of the household had to be on the same page, for us it was no drama. We also had the facilities to do this and our house is set up to allow this. I don't see any situation with multiple dogs in these numbers being successful 100% of the time if there is no contingency plan or facilities. The emotion needs to be taken out of it and the animals managed as animals, if it is too hard then rehome. But really it isn't hard if you want to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Sounds totally NORMAL: Spud sounds normal. Murphy sounds normal. They all just dont get along. <Big deal :) rehome Spud with disclosure and to a suitable home> Hardly a pts situation for two young upcoming males and not even blood drawn. Over the past two/three days our young Bull Arab (Spud, 10mths) has attacked our Dobie/Husky cross (Murphy, 12 mths old)a few times, with absolutely no provocation. The four young dogs spend most of the day running around our large fenced dog yard (about two acres fenced off for them) or sleeping. They play roughly, but well together, however now Spud has attacked Murphy with what looks like real intention. No blood has been drawn, but I am very fearful it may not be far off if we don't address the situation immediately. The OP is experiencing normal pack dynamics. Have dog owners become so removed from what is dog that a 10 month old upcoming male going for the 12 month old male, seems abnormal? OP: What you see and what the dog sees are not the same thing. So now you have learned that two young males which are friends as baby puppies, are often not friends as they become young adults. As an owner of large dogs where DA is not abnormal, I can tell you if there was no blood drawn or physical injury, then the fight was not far up the barometer of serious dog fight. If Spud had a high propensity for DA 1. you would have seen the behaviour earlier 2. the attack would have been more serious It is obvious that Spud and Murphy cannot coexist. It is no shortcoming on your behalf and there is nothing abnormal about the circumstance (okay upsetting yes, but this is what can happen when you have multiple dogs). If it gives you peace of mind, enlist the help of a behaviorist to help you reach a decision, and also to give you a better assessment of your pack dynamics, as it sounds like you would benefit from this also :) NB: Aggression is not a disease. It is not something that is 'fixed', but something that is managed. In your case, management is keeping the two dogs forever separated. I couldn't agree more I run one male separately to my other two boys and I've been doing it for six years, it's no big deal, you get used to it. People seem to forget that we are dealing with DOGS here and not all dogs get along, when you are running a pack these things happen. As lilli says, it's NORMAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Staffydave. I think what you are missing is that the behaviour that you think is normal in this dog, is the same behaviour that most people in our community really don't want to see in any pet dog. Determined aggression can be dangerous. It is you making a big deal of the breed. Nobody else is judging the behaviour by whether it is ok for a breed, only by whether it is ok for a dog of any breed. I am so glad the OP has recognised the seriousness and has contacted a behaviourist to examine the behaviour in depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Staffydave. I think what you are missing is that the behaviour that you think is normal in this dog, is the same behaviour that most people in our community really don't want to see in any pet dog. Determined aggression can be dangerous. It is you making a big deal of the breed. Nobody else is judging the behaviour by whether it is ok for a breed, only by whether it is ok for a dog of any breed. I am so glad the OP has recognised the seriousness and has contacted a behaviourist to examine the behaviour in depth. yes ! A lot of behaviours which are normal for dogs ..are also not acceptable when those dogs are in close confines /living with humans, in houses. To a lesser extent, behaviour like protecting resources, marking objects, digging beds/dens are normal canine things..but not what owners want happening in their houses/around their families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Staffydave. I think what you are missing is that the behaviour that you think is normal in this dog, is the same behaviour that most people in our community really don't want to see in any pet dog. Determined aggression can be dangerous. It is you making a big deal of the breed. Nobody else is judging the behaviour by whether it is ok for a breed, only by whether it is ok for a dog of any breed. I am so glad the OP has recognised the seriousness and has contacted a behaviourist to examine the behaviour in depth. yes ! A lot of behaviours which are normal for dogs ..are also not acceptable when those dogs are in close confines /living with humans, in houses. To a lesser extent, behaviour like protecting resources, marking objects, digging beds/dens are normal canine things..but not what owners want happening in their houses/around their families. Let's not confuse what is acceptable behaviour with what is normal dog behaviour. If an owner does not want their dogs to fight, then act as an owner and deal with the situation so the dogs do not fight. Too bad what most people in the community want from their pet dog. It doesn't change what their dog is. It is a dog. If owners dont want to see aggression from their pet dogs, then owners should manage their dogs in an informed way, not with a politically correct ethos that has zero application to the instinctive world of animals. Yes, it is not acceptable for one dog to exhibit aggression at another dog it lives with, but it is certainly NORMAL. Edited September 30, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I am by no means a expert never claimed to be. Why are you trying to spark up a argument here considering the topic of the post its not needed and silly. It is obvious that you Have a dislike for bull breeds which is fine and your right i simply disagree It is obvious from..? The bit where I said I thought all bull breeds should be made restricted or.. the bit where I said bull breeds were evil dogs or was it some other imaginary bit that you're drawing your assumption from? Most idiotic thing I have ever read and I'd be happy to take the warning from Troy for pointing that out. Anyway.. I'm not going to re-point out your backpedaling (I've already pointed it out for you) so I'm afraid that if you're really that incapable of comprehending why your posts are contradictory, I can't help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 ANY breed is capable of this behaviour. The point is that the OP is doing the very responsible thing and having a professional come and assess the situation. Breed is very low on the list of causes IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubiton Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 If you are in Queensland - and I think you are and therefore Im surprised it hasnt been mentioned - contact The Paw Man. http://www.thepawman.com.au/ and can also be found on facebook search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 My cousin has a kelpie x husky that is a resource guarder.... food, bedding, toys pretty much anything she forms an attachment to, she is a rescue dog from hawkesbury pound. She gets quite aggressive with it , and it is quite scary I love dogs but I refuse to go near her because I would not like to be bitten, this may be dog behaviour but it is not acceptable she has bitten my cousins husband on the arm quite badly he needed stitches and this was just him trying to get their tv remote off her bed :/ they did not think much of it when they first bought her home and put it down to being " normal behaviour" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 sorry - contact The Paw Man. http://www.thepawman.com.au/ and can also be found on facebook search. From this website - The Koehler method is used by 90% of all Police and Military Dog organisations around the world Really? Can anyone confirm this, cos it doesn't sound right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 there is Koehler discussion ... in THIS THREAD.... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Thanks Pers :) I remember the thread (and a spin-off!) which was another reason I was dubious about the claim it is so widely used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 My cousin has a kelpie x husky that is a resource guarder.... food, bedding, toys pretty much anything she forms an attachment to, she is a rescue dog from hawkesbury pound. She gets quite aggressive with it , and it is quite scary I love dogs but I refuse to go near her because I would not like to be bitten, this may be dog behaviour but it is not acceptable she has bitten my cousins husband on the arm quite badly he needed stitches and this was just him trying to get their tv remote off her bed :/ they did not think much of it when they first bought her home and put it down to being " normal behaviour" This dog is not HA from what has been written. HA and DA are not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now