cannibalgoldfish Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 The next oldest split was between wolves and a group they labelled "ancient and spitz" which included dingoes, NGSDs, chow-chows, akitas, shar-pei, and huskies & malamutesand nutjob shibas :D (thanks to Wikipedia)Recent DNA analysis confirms that this Asian spitz-type dog is one of the oldest dog breeds, dating back to the 3rd century BC. (At the moment, one of mine looks this old too! :laugh: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Lol sounds like I've been out nerded weasels :D the one I read re husky genetics appears to have been superseded by yours if you still have the reference I'd love to have a read :) Sibes are a little confusing though as they were crossed with the grey wolf back in the Inuit days but how much of that has been retained I'm not sure. :laugh: the saddest part is that it's my day off work I guess nerding is something more difficult to escape Crossing does make things difficult, but the study looked at so many different genetic markers the over-riding signal should come through, the extra wolf DNA would increase the statistical error but I don't think it would adjust their position in the phylogenetic tree :) The paper - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20237475 Cool thanks weasels some light reading for my day off too! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 yes, but they have been selectively bred - maremmas, sighthounds and huskies all have other qualities that we have chosen and enhanced to make them better companions to us and our needs. They have been moulded as domestic animals more suited to our lives than a wild animal :) Some have been selectively bred to retain their primitive types of temperaments and behaviours, because those suit some people's needs and wants. Not all folks want or need biddable, trainable dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 No not everyone wants biddable dogs, nor the same things in dogs generally - hell I've heard some people even prefer cats! There will always be people who go out of their way to accomodate a certain type of animal, of various species, but it doesn't mean that the majority of people are suited or prepared for the commitment, to the extent that 'exotic' animals should become part of the general pet market. There are aspects of (pure) dingo ownership that concern me in regards to the welfare of the dingoes themselves, the people/animals in the local area, and unprepared owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Oh hell yes. But that goes for quite a few breeds. Not just dingos at all. Breeding and keeping dingos is one sure way to prevent them from disappearing as a pure breed. Which would be sad. In the wild there are few purebred populations left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deedee202 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Yes Weasels, you are right about commitment, a dingo is not a dog you can just leave alone in the back yard. Their mind is always active and they are always trying to think of some crafty or cunning trick to play on you. :D Zara has the run of the yard and house and there is almost always someone at home to keep an eye on her.....My Yorkie comes dobbing on her if she breaks any rules, like getting on the lounge or beds etc. Zara understands quite quickly what is expected of her, but still likes to bend the rules. They are not a dog you could or in my opinion should try to "crate train" confinement goes against their wild side. If we do have to leave her alone for a couple of hours here or there we have constructed a large enclosed area for her, we learned that nothing else would keep her in the yard. While we are home she never tries to get out, but as soon as we went out she would quickly devise a way to escape the rear yard no matter what we tried, once out she would not go anywhere just sleep on the front patio, It was enough for her to prove she had outsmarted us again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZharaBelle Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 That pic of her and the yorkie is so cute. It's like she is saying 'hurry up n get in so I can tip it over on you and get on with my mischeif'.lol :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) She is absolutely gorgeous Deedee! Oh hell yes. But that goes for quite a few breeds. Not just dingos at all. Breeding and keeping dingos is one sure way to prevent them from disappearing as a pure breed. Which would be sad. In the wild there are few purebred populations left. The thing is though, studies in both wolves and dingoes show that they have significant (although non-heritable) changes in their skull shape when raised in captivity. This may make them less suited for hunting prey on their own. When you combine this with the fact that you have captive dingo parents who don't know how to hunt either (and can't pass those skills onto their offspring) and you have a population that would not be able to compete in their natural environment. Therefore, the question becomes: are the population you are keeping in cativity 'really' dingoes, if they have to be kept in captivity indefinitely? And these processes will only exacerbate the more generations that you keep them in an artificial environment. There was also a study last year which showed there are quite a few pure dingoes remaining in WA and the NT, but because most previous studies had been focussed in NSW and VIC they had not been quantified before. Edited October 13, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Shouldn't there be a program running that raises purebred dingoes introduces the into a simulated "wild" environment complete with prey for the to learn? (but I suppose then you would have to answer to animal cruelty stuff etc) On the other hand, they are dingoes int he sense that their genetics make them so but remember that experiment where the guy bred foxes for years in captivity and over the years the foxes started to develop strange colouring and floppy ears, as well as bobbed tails etc. It was apparent that the foxes genes were changing and morphing and creating a new strain of "domestic" foxes. They also bred much quieter animals that behaved like regular friendly dogs. You see this in some dingo populations now that have been bred in captivity, skull shape change and white markings on the face etc. Edited October 13, 2012 by mixeduppup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 In the case of the silver foxes,they were selecting for "tameness".It wasn't some thing that happened on its own, the changes that occured in ears,colouring etc seem to be a product of the "tame" gene. Being nerdly,I think there are differences in European wolves to North American.Were the experiments on domesticating wolves done with both I wonder? Perhaps wolves sourced from North America,who had been living near native ("Indian")populations would have have a slightly more positive out come? Native Americans didn't persecute the wolves,but appreciated them for keeping the herds they depended on healthy. In comparing Dingos to wolves in a domestic setting,I think the silver fox experiment also shows how quickly what we do affects genetics. European wolves have been persecuted for centuries,effectively culling any "domestic gene" . North American wolves have also been perscuted,but for far less time.When I was a kid there was still a lot of people who could pass on 1st hand knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Dingoes are relatively tame already so i would assume over time the genetics would be changed as the foxes were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeopener Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I had a dingo when I was younger n she lived just as my other dogs did as I knew no better at the time but she would only eat when I feed here was timid n if felt had no opinion to run away n felt trapped would bite n attack. Her recall was quite good unless she was cashing a rabbit then forget it. She lived happily with my cats n chooks n never killed anything. Only animals she ever hunted where rabbits n crop quails. She was incredibly athletic n could clear or scale all fencing but luckily enough never wanted to go far but I always double tied her instead a dog run of a night as I never wanted her to get blame if there was any dog attacks on sheep anywhere near us. All in all she was a great dog but not your average family pet either & till the day she died she only ever let me pat her without looking like it was torture, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I had a dingo when I was younger n she lived just as my other dogs did as I knew no better at the time but she would only eat when I feed here was timid n if felt had no opinion to run away n felt trapped would bite n attack. Her recall was quite good unless she was cashing a rabbit then forget it. She lived happily with my cats n chooks n never killed anything. Only animals she ever hunted where rabbits n crop quails. She was incredibly athletic n could clear or scale all fencing but luckily enough never wanted to go far but I always double tied her instead a dog run of a night as I never wanted her to get blame if there was any dog attacks on sheep anywhere near us. All in all she was a great dog but not your average family pet either & till the day she died she only ever let me pat her without looking like it was torture, lol. your girl sounds like my neighbours girl in all except she thought everyone was her best friend. and loved pats and cuddles. no one ever asked was she a dingo so the subject never came up. only her owners and us knew where she actually came from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Dingoes are relatively tame already so i would assume over time the genetics would be changed as the foxes were? Not sure just how it works,but maybe thats why there is as much variation in dingos now (colour,white spots etc.) Further changes apart from shortening of muzzle etc. that occurs with domestication likely depends on continued selection for the tamest? I heard that the inuit people used to breed their sled dogs back to wolves every 4th/6th generation.If true,would mean the original sled dogs had a very high proportion of wolf. The degree of domestication looked for in the experiments on domestication of wolves wasn't clear to me from the Doco. I watched. The experience of the cubs handlers in wolf pack structure and comunication would also have a bearing on results I think? Edited October 13, 2012 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Dingoes are relatively tame already so i would assume over time the genetics would be changed as the foxes were? Not sure just how it works,but maybe thats why there is as much variation in dingos now (colour,white spots etc.) Further changes apart from shortening of muzzle etc. that occurs with domestication likely depends on continued selection for the tamest? well the neighbours pup wasnt'selected' like that. her hubby was a semi driver and some local out the middle of nowhere arrived at the pub with a litter of pups he had dug out, she was the last pup left and they was going to knock her on the head and he asked for her and brought her home. she looked just like the girl in the photos above. Edited October 13, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Dingoes are relatively tame already so i would assume over time the genetics would be changed as the foxes were? Not sure just how it works,but maybe thats why there is as much variation in dingos now (colour,white spots etc.) Further changes apart from shortening of muzzle etc. that occurs with domestication likely depends on continued selection for the tamest? well the neighbours pup wasnt'selected' like that. her hubby was a semi driver and some local out the middle of nowhere arrived at the pub with a litter of pups he had dug out, she was the last pup left and they was going to knock her on the head and he asked for her and brought her home. she looked just like the girl in the photos above. The whole point of the experiment was to select the naturally tame foxes from litters of wild foxes and then breed only the tame cubs of those litters and so on. Tamer dingoes are present in the wild population, every dingo in unique as is every dog. That is displayed int he post above where the dingo is not very affectionate compared to your neighbour's one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) Dingoes are relatively tame already so i would assume over time the genetics would be changed as the foxes were? Not sure just how it works,but maybe thats why there is as much variation in dingos now (colour,white spots etc.) Further changes apart from shortening of muzzle etc. that occurs with domestication likely depends on continued selection for the tamest? well the neighbours pup wasnt'selected' like that. her hubby was a semi driver and some local out the middle of nowhere arrived at the pub with a litter of pups he had dug out, she was the last pup left and they was going to knock her on the head and he asked for her and brought her home. she looked just like the girl in the photos above. The whole point of the experiment was to select the naturally tame foxes from litters of wild foxes and then breed only the tame cubs of those litters and so on. Tamer dingoes are present in the wild population, every dingo in unique as is every dog. That is displayed int he post above where the dingo is not very affectionate compared to your neighbour's one. Yes, except few people seem to realise the same happens even in purebred litters. Marrs and his sister Bluey were very outgoing from their first weeks, their litter sister i called violet as in 'shrinking violet' she always sat in the corner and watched the action. she desplayed this from her first weeks as a pup. so many people seem to have to assume a shy dog has had to have been mistreated. I watched Violet and her 8 other littermates from the day they were born ...she was born that way. to change these pups even a little takes ten times the socalising and you cant make such a dog grown up with the same behaviour that comes naturally with its litter mates no more thn you can with children you can help them but you cant MAKE them what they arent either. it wasnt that long ago that mothers of autistic children were made to wear the blame. Thank goodness that has been proven to be wrong Edited October 14, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Our friends breed working kelpies and recently had a litter from very balanced dogs, all pups were fine except for one that is very fearful, from day one it would struggle to get away if touched. they've taken it to the vet and there's no medical reason for why it behaves this way, just temp. So you are right, I think it happens in domestic dogs as well. But with wild or semi wild populations of canines it would most likely be switched, one quieter pups verse many wilder ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalteseLuna Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Ah yes KTB, but wolf puppies are also like dogs, until they grow up and say "stuff you meatbag" and start doing their own thing ;) Not a breed, but a wild animal, with wild animal instincts. I disagree. They are decendened from domestic animals and came across to Australia together with man. They are not truly a "native animal"..and all dogs have the capacity to go 'wild' and feral. I have known many Dingo pet dogs here in Victoria over the years and they are no more difficult to train and own than many other "demanding' breeds. Truly, they are not for everyone and shouldn't be. But then neither is a German Shepherd, Basenji, Border Collie, or a Kelpie...... Okie dokie - incoming very long reply :D Nerd hat on :laugh: Dingoes aren't likely to be descended from "domestic animals" but rather from early or pre domesticated dogs. There is a degree of flexibility in the dating of dingo arrival BUT they have certainly been in Australia for ~4,000 years. In regards to what is a "native" animal - huge issue - there is really no solid "definition" of what a native animal is. Certainly dingoes play a hugely important role in ecological functioning as they are the sole remaining top level terrestrial predator (having replaced the Tassie Tiger and Devil). I personally consider them indigenous :) I disagree. They are decendened from domestic animals and came across to Australia together with man. They are not truly a "native animal"..and all dogs have the capacity to go 'wild' and feral. I have known many Dingo pet dogs here in Victoria over the years and they are no more difficult to train and own than many other "demanding' breeds. Truly, they are not for everyone and shouldn't be. But then neither is a German Shepherd, Basenji, Border Collie, or a Kelpie...... I would say they are descended from commensal animals that lived in association with man, but not they'd ever been what I would consider domesticated. I'm not saying dingoes can't be good pets, just that we have worked so hard for so long to breed the traits that work for us into dogs, so they make even bettter pets! Agree Weasels..just pointing out the misnomer that they are a native animal. Admittently they, like the Aboriginals have been here for a bloody long time. :) Commensal animals that lived in association with man...isn't that how ALL domestic dogs started? Domestic dogs have been subjects to generations of strong selective breeding - the suggestion Weasels is making is that dingoes may not have experienced much if any selective breeding. Perhaps pups were tamed and packs may have lived near humans but it's plausible that they were not domesticated in the sense your thinking. He is gorgeous but I dont think he looks pure - I'm no expert though! He was originally classified as dingo x acd but apparently some dingo experts thought that he looked like a pure Alpine dingo. No idea - I didn't think that there many pure dingos around anymore anyway ... Morphology is a very unreliable indicator of "purity" or genetic integrity. Unless he was tested (genetically) then it's likely he is a hybrid, particularly if he came from NSW or Vic. Lol sounds like I've been out nerded weasels :D the one I read re husky genetics appears to have been superseded by yours if you still have the reference I'd love to have a read :) Sibes are a little confusing though as they were crossed with the grey wolf back in the Inuit days but how much of that has been retained I'm not sure. :laugh: the saddest part is that it's my day off work I guess nerding is something more difficult to escape Crossing does make things difficult, but the study looked at so many different genetic markers the over-riding signal should come through, the extra wolf DNA would increase the statistical error but I don't think it would adjust their position in the phylogenetic tree :) The paper - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20237475 The paper does make the point that backcrossing to wolves at a more modern time could have been responsible for the phylogenetic pattern. This seems likely given the breed history? Dingoes, NGSD and some of the south-east asian dogs also partitioned out with some of the asian wolves, making it plausible they backcrossed or were derived from asian wolves. (this was in another analysis they did). If the ad was in SA or QLD then it likely is illegal :) otherwise sadly not. Personally I think there should be controls on who can keep them as they are hardly your average "dog" and need a more committed and savvy owner. Also just a pointer - unless you see some evidence that the dog has been genetically tested it's quite possible it's not a dingo but rather a hybrid. Looks can be deceiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orrd Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) haven't read the whole thread as new here, similar discussions with wolves and wolf hybrids - fundamentally if you love these animals then leave them alone as much as possible, they don't want yr company, they are not happy as pets, this is not disneyland. will read rest of thread now, i was horrified with the thread title and thought aussies had more brains. Edited October 15, 2012 by orrd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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