giraffez Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) I have 2 mini schnauzers, one is almost 4 and the other 2. Both boys. The older one is the more dominant one and the younger more submissive. They get along fine. However, in the morning, the younger one will not come inside the house until his breakfast is ready. And there will be periods where he will hide outside and will not come in, even when it's dark and raining. And then the next day he is okay and back to normal. I'm starting to get a bit worried, yesterday he hid outside or inside the garage all day. When it came to bed time they usually sleep together on the sofa however he wouldn't and went to sleep elsewhere. It was only later that night he climb back onto the sofa. This morning he started the hiding again. Initially I thought they were fighting but there was none of that and they would play together outside so seem like they are getting along fine. Any idea what's going on? Edited June 18, 2013 by giraffez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Long time no see ! I would suggest two things off the bat - A:Young boy is unwell .. Hiding away is often a symptom of being sick ...having pain etc. . Intermitent pain is something to consider .. B:The older boy had given younger one a beating while you're away ..and now younger one is trying to keep well away , as is polite and safe . Older dog could well be warning him off without you noticing , and reminding the younger boy that his place is now OUT ? That's all I can think of at present .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 agree with persephone specially point B. Might be time to tighten up your leadership skills and remind bossy boots it's your job to say who comes in etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Persephone said exactly what I was thinking. Also ad that he may have had another big scare from something unrelated to your older dog but it's just freaked him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Perse's point B was my first thought this morning too. I didn't post earlier because I was stuck for wording. Now after reading her post, I agree that your younger boy might've been bullied by the older one. Household politics can become stressful. Poor boy! Maybe a vet check just in case to make sure here's no hidden injuries -- dogs can be pretty stoic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 You posted last year that the older one was being a bully . Chances are its happening again & your not seeing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 You posted last year that the older one was being a bully . Chances are its happening again & your not seeing it Yep - and dominance can be very subtle without a growl ever happening. My two get along well and they both get turns having the toys etc. However, my girl is the boss of my boy and sometimes she will just sit next to him - he knows to move. There is no fighting, no growling, but he knows she means business. I'm lucky that she doesn't abuse this power, and he is submissive. It doesn't cause issues between my two and my boy is confident around her - he knicks toys off of her, plays with her, steals her spot etc 95% of the time and she lets him. However, it seems like your younger one is "suffering" the consequences of the relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnauzer Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 I have never found this problem with either my own dogs/rescue dogs. My dogs know their order, but are always together/sleep in same baskets etc. I find it unusual for minis not to get along. If he were my dog I would definitely get the young dog vet checked in case he is unwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) if the younger one has no health problems ..then obedience and stuff with BOTH will help :) no use punishing the older boy, or coddling the younger ... they both would benefit from knowing that you are the ultimate leader :) Playing etc may be fine ... as they have their rules .... but when it comes to beds/food /human presence , there may be problems. I would be very mean .. And crate them separately to sleep .. Institute The Nothing In Life Is Free way of life for them both , and restrict some privileges for both ... that way there is much less of great value to argue over , perhaps? Edited June 17, 2013 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundyburger Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 We would have similar here in that the youngin would refuse to come inside. Turns out the older dog gangs up on him and would stop him coming in. Now it only happens occasionally, if the young one is being annoying or I'm not quick enough to stop it. It's definite dominance in our house and isn't tolerated by either dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giraffez Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 Thank you all. He doesn't seem to be in pain and no loss in energy so I hope it's not health related. Yesterday when I caught him hiding in the garage, his tail was tucked in between his legs. I don't know whether this is a one off, ill check again the next time it happens and report back. Initially the thought of bullying did come to mind, actually everytime he hides I always say to him has your big brother been picking in you again! Lol But the older one hasn't shown any signs of aggression to him, they play like best friends outside in the yard. However I did catch him giving the younger one a nudge out the doggie door the other day when the younger one was trying to come in and the older one was inside. That may be just me being psychological and it may not have meant anything. Could the bullying be silent and they have a dog code of communication without getting violent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Thank you all. He doesn't seem to be in pain and no loss in energy so I hope it's not health related. Yesterday when I caught him hiding in the garage, his tail was tucked in between his legs. I don't know whether this is a one off, ill check again the next time it happens and report back. Initially the thought of bullying did come to mind, actually everytime he hides I always say to him has your big brother been picking in you again! Lol But the older one hasn't shown any signs of aggression to him, they play like best friends outside in the yard. However I did catch him giving the younger one a nudge out the doggie door the other day when the younger one was trying to come in and the older one was inside. That may be just me being psychological and it may not have meant anything. Could the bullying be silent and they have a dog code of communication without getting violent? Bullying can be silent, body language can send a very sensitive dog into a fearful state. You need to come in and fix whatever is happening. Perhaps a behaviourist would be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Bullying can be silent, body language can send a very sensitive dog into a fearful state. You need to come in and fix whatever is happening. Perhaps a behaviourist would be a good idea. Yes. I agree with this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundyburger Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 There's no aggression with ours but they definitely bully each other at times and it took us a while to wise up to what it was. Like with us it can be subtle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giraffez Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 There's no aggression with ours but they definitely bully each other at times and it took us a while to wise up to what it was. Like with us it can be subtle. What did you do to stop it? My boys were back together sleeping again. But the younger one stll does sneak away once in a while. It is clear that there is a dominance thing, after the younger one pees, the older one will go over to pee on top of where he did it. Always has. But dominance isn't bullying is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) There's no aggression with ours but they definitely bully each other at times and it took us a while to wise up to what it was. Like with us it can be subtle. What did you do to stop it? My boys were back together sleeping again. But the younger one stll does sneak away once in a while. It is clear that there is a dominance thing, after the younger one pees, the older one will go over to pee on top of where he did it. Always has. But dominance isn't bullying is it? One dog putting it over another dog is fine if the other dog is OK with it, once the other dog starts to shows anxiety and fearfulness then it becomes 'bullying'. Your dogs need balance in their lives that they don't currently have. You need to get a behaviourist. Edited June 18, 2013 by mixeduppup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giraffez Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) I'm actually not sure whether it is bullying or he is wanting to get away from my older dog or just wanting to hide in general. Just now, both were sleeping on the sofa and I woke them when I went to get a glass water. I called them out to pee and my older boy didnt want to move as he was nice and warm but the younger one went out. After a minute when he didn't come in, I went out to check and found him sitting on the grass area just under the roof edge ( he was just shielded from the sprinkling rain). I encouraged him back into the house and he jumped back onto the sofa next to my older dog and back to sleep I don't think the older dog was bullying in this instance, he didn't even want to move, he just had his eyes opened and his eyes followed my movement. He didn't bother the little one and didn't even look at him. My younger dog hasn't shown any signs of being unwell, his poop is nice and firm, he is drinking and eating fine. He is playing well and hasn't shown a loss in energy. If I take him to the vet, they probably just think I'm paranoid. Plus he had a bit of a traumatic experience with an allergic reaction at the vet a couple of months ago so if I can avoid taking him to the vet, that would be ideal. If it was bullying, wouldn't he be scared of my older dog all the time? He has no issues being close to my older dog or playing with him, he doesnt keep his distance. it's only just out of the blue he goes and disappears for a while. Is there a way I can rule out whether it is illness or the bullying myself before proceeding to the next step? Edited June 18, 2013 by giraffez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) Get a behaviourist, they'll help you out. The bullying doesn't need to be continuous, one experience will haunt a sensitive dog or a continuous stream of experiences that you aren't witnessing. To help you and them move forward you need an experienced professional to guide you in creating a balanced lifestyle and a behaviourist can do that for you. Also have a vet check, some illnesses are not symptomatic in the sense of obvious signs but can still be present. Edited June 18, 2013 by mixeduppup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boronia Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Just a thought...perhaps he was following the older dog inside (or outside) through the dog-door and it has swung back and hit him in the face, this happened to Mac a couple of times and it took ages to get his confidence back to use it again...he now waits a minute after the other two have gone out before he uses it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosetta Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Just a thought out of left field - is he reacting to something you have done rather than the other dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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