Why Doesn't The Ankc (like Most Clubs) Keep Death Stats

[sandgrubber]

There's an interesting thread going on why health testing isn't mandatory. Following from that thread, it strikes me that even before health testing, KC's should be keeping records of age of death and cause of death.

In reading a pedigree, I would much rather know whether there were patterns of early death from cancer, or long lives, or much euthanasia for behavioral problems, than whether hip or elbow Xrays were good.

I know the Finnish KC has begun recording mortality data, but I don't know of any other clubs that do so.

Why are these records not kept?

[sas]

Because that would reply on the owners providing the information.

My dog died in November and I'm yet to send notification to the Council to advise them of this.

[Sandra777]

The ANKC can't even manage to record simple DNA testing results, a database recording the infinite causes of death would be asking for a miracle.

[ellz]

It clearly states in rules and regulations that the paperwork (ie certified registration and pedigree document) is the property of the ANKC and that it should be returned to the organisation upon the death of the dog.

BUT, I doubt anybody actually does it. I know I never have.

[~Anne~]

Because that would reply on the owners providing the information.

My dog died in November and I'm yet to send notification to the Council to advise them of this.

You've just reminded me to notify the Council of Monte's death so the NSW CAR can be updated. I never realised I also had to contact Vic dogs though.

[Steve]

where would they get the data from - In most states the dog is never transferred out of the breeders name but it goes off to its new family with the papers because the onus is onthe new owner to transfer it and most dont .In fact I think Queensland is the only place in Australia where the new owner's details are actually placed on the data base by the breeder and most puppy buyers are not ANKC members and wouldn't give a hoot about lodging death details with the orgs anyway. At best they could maybe do a survey but thats likely to be pretty dodgy because of the small number that it would represent.

[OSoSwift]

I have never notified them of date of death or cause. I also want to keep my dogs papers

[minimax]

where would they get the data from - In most states the dog is never transferred out of the breeders name but it goes off to its new family with the papers because the onus is onthe new owner to transfer it and most dont .In fact I think Queensland is the only place in Australia where the new owner's details are actually placed on the data base by the breeder and most puppy buyers are not ANKC members and wouldn't give a hoot about lodging death details with the orgs anyway. At best they could maybe do a survey but thats likely to be pretty dodgy because of the small number that it would represent.

I guess if it's information to go on a pedigree the "pet" homes aren't required, but then not getting all the stats will give inaccurate data so therefore it's pointless.

Honestly it's not something I'd want on a pedigree (died: car accident, or died: cancer. no thanks) but if keeping the stats were practical then it would be handy. But I don't think it is practical as reporting a dogs cause and date of death to be kept on file is hardly a priority after losing a loved pet.

[Steve]

I dont think sandgrubber was referring to them putting that sort of stuff on a pedigree but rather to collect stats for cause of death in a breed.

[minimax]

I dont think sandgrubber was referring to them putting that sort of stuff on a pedigree but rather to collect stats for cause of death in a breed.

Oh, I'm a bit literal sometimes :laugh: I took it literally when she said: In reading a pedigree, I would much rather know whether there were patterns of early death from cancer, or long lives, or much euthanasia for behavioral problems, than whether hip or elbow Xrays were good.

[sandgrubber]

I dont think sandgrubber was referring to them putting that sort of stuff on a pedigree but rather to collect stats for cause of death in a breed.

Yup! I'm just jealous of the Finns.

See http://jalostus.kenn...x?R=153&Lang=en

The way to do it would be online with open access. You'll notice that the Finnish data is imprefect, with "cause of death not noted" being a common entry. But it's a lot better than nothing.

Also, I did human demography and a bit of epidemiology long before I got involved with dogs, and it bugs me that dog culture accepts a crappy system that records births but not deaths. How can you scientifically approach health without data? Controlled studies are too expensive . . . very very few of them have been done for periods of several years. Seems to me that keeping track of health concerns is the #1 reason for bothering with pedigrees at all. Why do hundreds (thousands) of dollars of testing, and record keeping on tests, when simple mortality statistics would be at least as effective.

OMG! You mean people would have to be honest to make the system work? If that's the real problem, I don't see that the pedigree dog world can ride a high horse in competition with BYB's and commercial breeders.

Edited January 14, 2014 by sandgrubber

[Diva]

The dog world here seems to do most of everything with little or poor data, it amazes me the assertions that are made without evidence. To gather death data, where there is no obvious incentive for the individual to comply, the controls would need a close and collaborative relationship with their membership. Just doesn't seem likely. I guess a well managed breed club could collect its own, although it would be only a sub set of the breed.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Diva

[kelpiecuddles]

It could be collected via the council registration system, when you notify the council that your animal is deceased so they can remove it's chip from active records they could also record the cause of death, in this way you would also capture those animals that were sold in to pet homes where the family isn't a member of the ANKC. There could be some sort of check box on the form that identified that animal as registered with the ANKC or another appropriate resistration organisation(I hesitate to say being from an ANKC registered breeder as it would in this case probably be beneficial to include breeds such as the Bosdog that are in the process of moving towards registration) in order to differentiate in the stats to also show whether the age of death differs depending on the source of that animal. Would be a very interesting stat to have I think

Edited January 14, 2014 by kelpiecuddles

[Steve]

It could be collected via the council registration system, when you notify the council that your animal is deceased so they can remove it's chip from active records they could also record the cause of death, in this way you would also capture those animals that were sold in to pet homes where the family isn't a member of the ANKC. There could be some sort of check box on the form that identified that animal as registered with the ANKC or another appropriate resistration organisation(I hesitate to say being from an ANKC registered breeder as it would in this case probably be beneficial to include breeds such as the Bosdog that are in the process of moving towards registration) in order to differentiate in the stats to also show whether the age of death differs depending on the source of that animal. Would be a very interesting stat to have I think

Yes but thats one state and no distinction between a purebred dog registered by a registered breeder and a dog that someone decided to call it that breed.

Its the same problem with LIDA which records health issues in breeds that attend vets - so every dog that looks like a beagle gets tagged a beagle and stats are kept which determine genetic disorders for a breed.We only breed 10% of all puppies born each year and there are thousands of beagles born each year which compile their stats that we dont breed and only a handful of vets are feeding the data back.

Some breeders actively go after this data to consider when choosing a breeding dog especially in breeds where longevity is a major problem .

One breeder I know who has a breed where life expectancy is down to around 4 and half years is actively working on selecting for longer lives.

Some bred clubs have had a go at it but again its only members of the breed clubs that may participate and not all of them will tell the truth either.

[WreckitWhippet]

I tried to hand in some papers and have a bitch recorded as deceased a couple of years ago. Given the circumstances, I thought it best that the papers go back.

I had the bitches papers, a vet's death cert and wrote a letter of how the bitch came to be in my care, but Dogs NSW would not accept the papers and would not mark her as deceased as she was not in my name. The owners had up and gone and there was no way of tracing them.

I don't bother with my own dogs, I keep their papers along with everything else that pertains to them.

I'm a GRN owner/trainer and hand in notice of disposal and they Grey's papers where applicable. Their system makes sense and they can and will inspect your property and request to see the papers of every Grey on it and for you to show them the papers and the dog's that they have recorded in your name.

[Christina]

One breeder I know who has a breed where life expectancy is down to around 4 and half years is actively working on selecting for longer lives.

Curious. What breed is this ?

I didn't know that there were any dog breeds with such a short life expectancy.

[Podengo]

Do many breeds have an online database with health testing, COD and other stuff listed? The Doberman database in America is quite good - again it requires people to be honest, and requires people to input data but it's quite good.

For example - Dobequest: Dog profile

You need to be a DPCA member to submit data, if you aren't you can ask a DPCA member to submit information for you. There are a few dogs from outside of America listed that I can find :)

[Steve]

One breeder I know who has a breed where life expectancy is down to around 4 and half years is actively working on selecting for longer lives.

Curious. What breed is this ?

I didn't know that there were any dog breeds with such a short life expectancy.

Neapolitan Mastiff - in a survey in 2004 conducted by the UK KC 2.33 and in one done by The Finnish KC Neapolitan Mastiff : 4 y 11 m

Officially all over the net they are listed as at around 8 to 10 years but based on records kept by some breeders some lines are not making it past about 4 or 5.

I dont put much faith in numbers put out via these types of data collection and surveys because they have such a small sampling but this breeder believes it is a problem based on what she has seen and experienced and is actively trying to breed for longer life as she believes it is the biggest issue in her breed.

Matter of interest there are several breeds in those surveys which have short lifespans.

[kelpiecuddles]

That's a from all causes number isn't it Steve? I would imagine it would include animals that were PTS due to major hip issues, temperament issues(whether due to nature or nurture), poor nutrition for giant breeds, other major health issues and things of that nature as well as simply animals that were severely injured in one way or another. I can't help but wonder whether there are other issues at play here.

I remember looking at the stats for bassets and thinking how low it was(8 point something years from recollection), Josie is 5 and very healthy I can't imagine her being anything close to elderly within a couple of years.

Edited January 15, 2014 by kelpiecuddles

[Steve]

That's a from all causes number isn't it Steve? I would imagine it would include animals that were PTS due to major hip issues, temperament issues(whether due to nature or nurture), poor nutrition for giant breeds, other major health issues and things of that nature as well as simply animals that were severely injured in one way or another. I can't help but wonder whether there are other issues at play here.

I remember looking at the stats for bassets and thinking how low it was(8 point something years from recollection), Josie is 5 and very healthy I can't imagine her being anything close to elderly within a couple of years.

Yep though in the actual survey causes of death are itemised but these numbers show deaths regardless of cause. Means bugger all really doesn't it?