Need A Replacement For Kibble

[SarasMum]

My friends Weimeraner died on Saturday from bloat and now she is extremely worried about feeding her other Wei kibble. She has always fed them cheapish kibble soaked in water as per her breeders instructions (dog was nearly 11). She has also since found out from the breeder that it seems to be in the dogs lines, quite a few of the dogs have died over the past 11 years of the same thing.

She is looking at alternatives for her 8 year old boy Wei. He is currently fed minced meat (roo/beef/chicken) in the morning and soaked kibble at night with added leftovers, vegies, sardines.

She is going to now feed him a chicken carcass or necks in the morning but wants something to compensate for the removal of kibble. She will still add the other stuff that he has always been fed. I suggested some chicken mince from Lenards and to add some yoghurt, occasional raw eggs but does anyone have any other suggestions?

She doesnt have the time or money to lean to a totally barf diet so something thats adequate nutritionally and is a big enough meal for a large dog is what she needs.

She is so very worried that her remaining beloved Wei will succumb to the same fate.

[MolassesLass]

I'm sorry to say it, but soaking the kibble makes bloat more likely. There is lots of information available online at the risk factors for bloat, I found this site quite helpful.

It sounds like she's feeding a fairly BARFish type diet so adding in edible bones would be a great thing to do. Other than a few extra supplements (like the yoghurt you mentioned), more bones is all she needs to add IMO.

Edited April 24, 2007 by molasseslass

[poodlefan]

If she doesn't have the money for BARF (although I think it's not that expensive) then personally I think she should continue to feed premium kibble.

No roll, or 4 Legs will be cheap enough.

The causes of bloat are many and varied. It's not as simple as being caused by kibble, although I'd be thinking a better quality one would be beneficial anyway. Raw fed dogs die of bloat too.

Gee mince in the morning and soaked kibble at night - what are the Wei's teeth like.

Edited April 24, 2007 by poodlefan

[SarasMum]

I'm sorry to say it, but soaking the kibble makes bloat more likely. There is lots of information available online at the risk factors for bloat, I found this site quite helpful.

It sounds like she's feeding a fairly BARFish type diet so adding in edible bones would be a great thing to do. Other than a few extra supplements (like the yoghurt you mentioned), more bones is all she needs to add IMO.

Yeah I sort of knew that but she is so distressed about her death that I didnt want her to think that she was to blame or had contributed to her death kwim?

I will send that link to her so she can have a look though. Thanks.

[Poodle wrangler]

I'm sorry to hear your friend lost her weim. Standard poodles are a large breed with deep chests, too. Study below included various large and giant breeds inc. weimaraner.

This link is from the Poodles in Australia website, Bloat Study: http://www.poodlesinaustralia.com/health/health18.html

Factors which were found to increase the risk of bloat.

1. Increased Age

There is a 20% increase in risk for each year increase in age

2. Having a first degree relative who has bloated (offspring 4X the risk, siblings 3X the risk & parents1.5X the risk)

This turned out to be one of the strongest predictors. Dogs with such a relative had a 3 and 4 fold increased risk of developing bloat. A first degree relative was defined as either a parent, sibling or offspring.

3. Deep, narrow thorax/abdomen

Dogs which were broader in body type had a lower incidence of bloat. Dr. Glickman postulates that the deeper and narrower the abdomen, the greater the room for the stomach ligaments to stretch down of lengthen as part of the aging process.

4. Underweight

Dr. Glickman felt that these underweight dogs may have problems with their gastrointestinal tract which prevents them from gaining weight and that would predispose them to bloat.

5. Feeding only once daily

Several studies, including this one, showed that as the number of meals increased per day, the risk of bloat decreased.

6. Fearful, easily upset dogs

Personality turned out to be a major predictor. According to Glickman, it is not the amount of stress in a dog's life that is significant, but the way in which the dog handles the stress. "When animals are placed under stress, there are certain stress hormonal and neural responses. Some of these responses affect gastric motility. A fearful dog may have a very different response physiologically to stress than a happy, easygoing dog. We think those physiological responses may contribute to the rotation of the stomach because of the motility. This is the second or third time we have demonstrated temperament, particularly easygoingness or fearfulness is related to the risk of bloat".

7. Raising food bowl

The study revealed that the higher the bowl, the higher the risk. Dr. Glickman feels the elevation may be causing an increased incidence of swallowing air which could account for the higher risk.

8. Rapid eaters

Since bloat does not usually occur immediately after eating, Dr. Glickman has no explanation for this. He did find that the faster the dog ate, the greater the risk for bloat

Factors which did NOT appear to influence risk of bloat.

Moistening food

Exercise before or after mealtime

Change of weather

Stress

Unrestricted access to water before or after mealtime.

The one factor that was consistently associated with a lower risk of bloat was having a personality that the owner described as "Happy".

They suggest not breeding with a dog that has a first degree relative who'd died of bloat!

Edited April 24, 2007 by Poodle wrangler

[SarasMum]

I'm sorry to hear your friend lost her weim. Standard poodles are a large breed with deep chests, too. Study below included various large and giant breeds inc. weimaraner.

This link is from the Poodles in Australia website, Bloat Study: http://www.poodlesinaustralia.com/health/health18.html

Factors which were found to increase the risk of bloat.

1. Increased Age

There is a 20% increase in risk for each year increase in age

2. Having a first degree relative who has bloated (offspring 4X the risk, siblings 3X the risk & parents1.5X the risk)

This turned out to be one of the strongest predictors. Dogs with such a relative had a 3 and 4 fold increased risk of developing bloat. A first degree relative was defined as either a parent, sibling or offspring.

3. Deep, narrow thorax/abdomen

Dogs which were broader in body type had a lower incidence of bloat. Dr. Glickman postulates that the deeper and narrower the abdomen, the greater the room for the stomach ligaments to stretch down of lengthen as part of the aging process.

4. Underweight

Dr. Glickman felt that these underweight dogs may have problems with their gastrointestinal tract which prevents them from gaining weight and that would predispose them to bloat.

5. Feeding only once daily

Several studies, including this one, showed that as the number of meals increased per day, the risk of bloat decreased.

6. Fearful, easily upset dogs

Personality turned out to be a major predictor. According to Glickman, it is not the amount of stress in a dog's life that is significant, but the way in which the dog handles the stress. "When animals are placed under stress, there are certain stress hormonal and neural responses. Some of these responses affect gastric motility. A fearful dog may have a very different response physiologically to stress than a happy, easygoing dog. We think those physiological responses may contribute to the rotation of the stomach because of the motility. This is the second or third time we have demonstrated temperament, particularly easygoingness or fearfulness is related to the risk of bloat".

Factors which did NOT appear to influence risk of bloat.

Moistening food

Exercise before or after mealtime

Change of weather

Stress

Unrestricted access to water before or after mealtime.

They suggest not breeding with a dog that has a first degree relative who'd died of bloat!

Most of these things above describe her so it sounds like it was pretty much going to happen sooner or later. I am confused that it says that moistening food doesnt seem to contribute. Interesting that there are so many different opinions on it.

Thank you for your help.

Edited April 24, 2007 by SarasMum

[MonElite]

She can try Vets All Natural - its like musli for dogs.

It needs to be soaked in water for 24 hours before feeding and mixed with minced meat.

No probs with feeding chicken, just tell her to feed other things as well. Vegies, fish, other meats and other bones.

[Cavandra]

I dont understand why she thinks BARF is expensive :rolleyes:

It is so cheap, she just needs to source chicken straight from teh factory or a good butcher, get shopping bags of chicken carcass for $1 or $2.........Pet mince is cheap, offal is fairly cheap & you dont feed that much of it............

[Tibbiemax71]

I lost my lovely male GSD to bloat 3 years ago I have been paranoid about it ever since. After that I was told to soak the food in water which I did and to feed it elevated lucky nothing happened to my other dog! I now feed mine on BARF, I also don't let them run around 1 hour before or after being fed and in summer I feed them late when it has cooled down. I know these thing wont 100% guarantee it wont happen again but at least it may help. My vet also said that dogs that eat lots of bones can get bloat, has anyone else heard of this? Something to do with lots of calcium I think :rolleyes: This is a worry for me since I am feeding BARF with lots of bones! Also with the "20% increase in risk for each year increase in age" What exactly does that mean, does it mean by the time the dog is 10 years old there is 100% chance it could get bloat or does it start after they reach a certain age.

ETA: Like Cavandra said BARF is cheap to feed, I get the pet mince, chicken frames from "Leonards" and what ever vegies are on special, offal from the butchers cheap and lamb off cuts from "Safeways" :D

Edited April 24, 2007 by MLH

[SarasMum]

Our Lenards doesnt sell whole carcasses. They do have the ground mince though. We can get 5 for $2.50 from the butcher.

I have spoken to her and given her some alternatives to kibble and she is feeling better already knowing that there is something she can do to help avoid it in her boy. I will also give the suggestions people have posted. I sent her the link that was posted above too.

Thanks for all the replies.

[curlyking]

I dont understand why she thinks BARF is expensive :rolleyes:

It is so cheap, she just needs to source chicken straight from teh factory or a good butcher, get shopping bags of chicken carcass for $1 or $2.........Pet mince is cheap, offal is fairly cheap & you dont feed that much of it............

Don't know what breed you are feeding but when I changed my Airedales to BARF my food bill went sky high.

The cost of ny of the "waste" items such as lamb flaps or shanks and even chicken necks is far in excess of pet mince @ 60 cents a kg. plus a middle range dry food

[noisymina]

We has a Wei who lived to about 16 - in the days before I ever heard of BARF or bloat or the sins of feeding cooked bones.

She was fed on -- I know a terrible diet -- of Pal Meaty Bites (about a cup a day, unsoaked), tinned Pal, table scraps and left-overs including cooked bones, numerous fruit varieties she used to graze from our trees, Macadamia nuts that she would crack for herself (another no-no) and one Christmas she even stole a box of chocolates from under the tree and consumed the lot with no obvious ill effect.

We were, it seems, exceedingly lucky. Or, rather, she was exceptionally lucky. :rolleyes:

I think if she were pre-disposed to bloat, she would have got it regardless of what we did. And since she was obviously not pre-disposed to it, she did not get it - regardless of what we did.

It seems to me that it is just one more thing that breeders need to keep track of, if at all possible.

BARF, or a modified version of it, can be fed without going to too much expense - and if one is flexible and ready to pick up bargains around the shops etc. eg this morning I got half price chicken legs at the supermarket - they were going cheap as today was the use-by date - home and straight in the freezer, no problem.

[Dogsfevr]

If bloat is in the lines it wont matter what she feeds but she also needs to be aware that the stress she is now placing on this dog by worrying over its diet is a receipe for bloat again.She is heart broken which is very understandable but this dog has also lost its mate & needs a stable routine that is normal to it

Changing the diet will also cause extra stress so she seriously needs to relax & not create a bigger problem by changing the only dogs routine.

Not feeding kibble doesnt mean no bloat it will .

[Poodle wrangler]

I lost my lovely male GSD to bloat 3 years ago ;) I have been paranoid about it ever since. After that I was told to soak the food in water which I did and to feed it elevated lucky nothing happened to my other dog! I now feed mine on BARF, I also don't let them run around 1 hour before or after being fed and in summer I feed them late when it has cooled down. I know these thing wont 100% guarantee it wont happen again but at least it may help. My vet also said that dogs that eat lots of bones can get bloat, has anyone else heard of this? Something to do with lots of calcium I think This is a worry for me since I am feeding BARF with lots of bones! Also with the "20% increase in risk for each year increase in age" What exactly does that mean, does it mean by the time the dog is 10 years old there is 100% chance it could get bloat :p or does it start after they reach a certain age.

We lost a boxer to bloat at about 8 or 9 years of age , but only had her for a few years). . Sad to lose yours so young. It could have been pure bad luck.

I'm not exactly sure, but read it to mean that a dog is more likely to get bloat, the older it gets. As not all dog die of bloat, there's no 100% likelihood at 10 years of age. The study included large and giant breeds like Danes and Irish Wolfhounds that have shorter life expectancies than GSDs, for example.

As with any disease, vets and breeders all have different ideas based on their own experiences. That's why studies are needed to try to look at things a bit more objectively. Sorry, I haven't searched to see if the results of this study have been repeated since.

Not exercising after meals is something I do, too. Dogs can do very well on BARF and it would be a shame to stop feeding this if they're doing well on it, bones and all. Others say too many bones can cause constipation, too, but it's part of a normal dog diet.

IMO, you can only do your best, based on current information, and seek immediate vet attention at the first sign of bloat.

[Tibbiemax71]

Thanks for your reply Poodle wrangler! I will just keep doing what I am doing and hope for the best. My boy had the surgery and the vet said his spleen was enlarged (they removed his spleen) he said this can sometimes rotate the stomach, so maybe it was something that I could never have stopped happening through preventative measures. He died a few hours after the surgery

[persephone]

Which is why I will never have a deep chested breed again

Lost Kieran to bloat/torsion...

read up..and did the right things....soaked food, fed elevated, rested...

then the day he died, he had scoffed no more than a mouthful of dry bikkies of the ground....that was all.

Normally, after eating 'illicit' food, I used to make him vomit..but as the quantity was so small, I didn't worry

Later, when the vet told me to make him vomit..and he couldn't......then I knew , and we went for our final car ride.

I feel for your friend.

Edited May 3, 2007 by persephone

[KitKat]

BARF isn't always as cheap as it's made out - much depends on the dogs - to keep any kind of weight on my GSD's on just raw i have to feed 3-4 times the recommended amount - and they still drop condition. Certianly didn't make it cheap - however some SP kibble also doesn't keep weight on my boys either so a lot depends on the dog itself. I guess also it would depend on availability and freezer space - my boys have their own chest freezer for their bones etc.

But by the sounds of it the owner is feeding more or less a raw diet anyway...so a chook frame or two instead of the kibble will probably do just as nicely

[Lab_Rat]

I lost my lovely male GSD to bloat 3 years ago I have been paranoid about it ever since. After that I was told to soak the food in water which I did and to feed it elevated lucky nothing happened to my other dog! I now feed mine on BARF, I also don't let them run around 1 hour before or after being fed and in summer I feed them late when it has cooled down. I know these thing wont 100% guarantee it wont happen again but at least it may help. My vet also said that dogs that eat lots of bones can get bloat, has anyone else heard of this? Something to do with lots of calcium I think This is a worry for me since I am feeding BARF with lots of bones! Also with the "20% increase in risk for each year increase in age" What exactly does that mean, does it mean by the time the dog is 10 years old there is 100% chance it could get bloat or does it start after they reach a certain age.

ETA: Like Cavandra said BARF is cheap to feed, I get the pet mince, chicken frames from "Leonards" and what ever vegies are on special, offal from the butchers cheap and lamb off cuts from "Safeways"

You sound just like MLH! I too lost my RR girl about two years ago, and since getting our new RR, I am totally paranoid about bloat.

I still feed kibble (RC), but my girls are fed twice a day, and absolutely NO exercise for one hour before and after eating.

Because my RR had a front leg amputated, I have a feeling that this contributed to her problem - as she was diagnosed with gastic torsion as well as bloat. Numerous people have told me not to worry too much about it, if its going to happen it will happen! Doesnt make me feel any better!

RG

Persephone - I know just what that final car ride is like.................

Edited May 4, 2007 by RidgyGirl

[Tibbiemax71]

I have roughly worked out that to feed BARF to two GSD's and one foster ACD X puppy who is 4 months old cost's me about $30 -$35 a fortnight depending on what I get and what on special, I find my younger girl very hard to put on and keep weight on but she is doing really well on BARF and has even put on a few kg's, my old girl is a very good "doer" so doesn't need as much as the younger dog, the foster pup will obviously need more as he gets bigger so it will probably cost me a bit more as time goes on.

When I bought "Advance" a 20kg bag ( it had 5kg for free, its normally 15kg) lasted me about a month at around $100 a bag, so for me feeding BARF is fairly cheap I think, but obviously all dogs are different and will do differently on it. Also feeding BARF has helped with my younger Shepherd with her itchy skin and watery eyes this summer.

[Dogsfevr]

The fact is deep chested doesnt mean bloat any breed is prone to it .