Asked To Leave The Field For Prong Collar Use

[angelsun]

I'm interested in seeing the written rule as well. I have found here, that all too often, many quote what are supposed rules, but end up being hearsay rules.

I know that many clubs can say they have policies they run their events by, but it's POLICY more than rule.

I was told a while back that when in a certain area of another club, NO check chains were permitted to be used and this was loudy stated to some others and yet on an open day where demo dogs were needed, I worked my bitch on a check chain without comment. As well, the shows are held every year and guess what.....the majority of dogs are shown on check chains! So much for the 'rule'.

Now I know that there are restrictions on E collars (I have the documents outlining the state rules and regs on this) but I've never been able to get any written rules about pinch collars and their use. I know that some folks have attempted to bring them in via postal and they have been stopped, however I know of many more that use them regularly (and without incident) I know how to use one correctly, and I know how they work. They are in fact FAR more human and less injury prone than a correction chain, but thanks to the many that don't understand them or how the collars look, a small portion have raised voice to say that any use by anyone, is deemed cruel. Well that's their opinion, but it's not mine.

We had clubs where I was from, that stated in the entry forms to their shows/trials, that pinch was not permitted on the premisis and they do have the right to say this, however it turns out, they did not have the right to enforce it, as it wasn't CKC policy and the shows/trials are overseen by CKC rules and regs. Interesting vicious circle of heresay and misinformation, and I find the same sort of thing happens here.

(same issue with importing a cropped eared dog from a country where it's permitted, and being told it can't be shown...wrong..it can be, you just need the right paperwork to do so.....big difference between getting the right paperwork and not being permitted...all because a bunch of people THINK that they know the rules) ;)

[Aidan3]

If you join the club though you are bound by the club's equipment rules.

Only on club grounds.

Aren't we talking about on club grounds????

Starinais and I had suggested working on public land adjacent to the club as a means to socialise the pup without breaking any rules.

[mita]

Win what? If you came to my classes I would expect you to abide my rules. I don't write them down and I don't have to. If I said "no clickers" and you refused to stop using your clicker I would ask you to leave and there is nothing you can do about it. The day a court upholds someone's opinion on their sovereignty to do whatever they like on my grounds is the day I take down my shingle.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head. The OP is looking for a statement of 'rule', while this refusal for his dog to wear a prong collar at training, seems more a 'convention' in that organisation. A convention is based on general agreement about how something is to be done. While a rule is a binding code.

If the OP wants to challenge the generality of that convention, then I'd suggest he approaches the organisation and its membership & sets out his position on the use of the prong collar.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Angelsun

In Victoria, the rules are like no other state/territory.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenfa.nsf/LinkView/817CFEF9C1AEDE27CA257521001ADF8418CDE14E012AB3A0CA2573FA000E0AC8/$file/POCTA%20Regulations%202008%20V1%20Dec%2008.pdf

No prong collar but e-collars are allowed with certain restrictions on potency and with trained supervision.

I haven't been able to figure out if QLD has rules on this.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Red Fox]

If you join the club though you are bound by the club's equipment rules.

Only on club grounds.

Aren't we talking about on club grounds????

Starinais and I had suggested working on public land adjacent to the club as a means to socialise the pup without breaking any rules.

I tried this with my dog and was told I could not used the grassed area next to a local club as technically it's 'part' of the grounds that the club hires for training (even though they don't use it).

It's a very good idea if you can do it, but many won't even allow you in 'their' carpark.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Bull Arab i agree with u

[JulesP]

If you join the club though you are bound by the club's equipment rules.

Only on club grounds.

Aren't we talking about on club grounds????

Starinais and I had suggested working on public land adjacent to the club as a means to socialise the pup without breaking any rules.

I tried this with my dog and was told I could not used the grassed area next to a local club as technically it's 'part' of the grounds that the club hires for training (even though they don't use it).

It's a very good idea if you can do it, but many won't even allow you in 'their' carpark.

Our grounds are a public oval. General members of the public are often strolling through on our training days.

[davidthedogman]

Or, I reckon that your other option is to go as close to their class as you can while remaining on public land, and train however you like. I have often done this with obedience & agility classes - lingering well outside the class means I can train for as long as I like, using the methods I like, reward when I want, etc, but still use the dogs in the class as a distraction.

That's what I have done and have recommended to clients. I even suggest taking a membership with the club, seeing as you're benefiting from their services, but there is certainly no obligation.

Good one guys thanks I will do this one.

[davidthedogman]

Win what? If you came to my classes I would expect you to abide my rules. I don't write them down and I don't have to. If I said "no clickers" and you refused to stop using your clicker I would ask you to leave and there is nothing you can do about it. The day a court upholds someone's opinion on their sovereignty to do whatever they like on my grounds is the day I take down my shingle.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head. The OP is looking for a statement of 'rule', while this refusal for his dog to wear a prong collar at training, seems more a 'convention' in that organisation. A convention is based on general agreement about how something is to be done. While a rule is a binding code.

If the OP wants to challenge the generality of that convention, then I'd suggest he approaches the organisation and its membership & sets out his position on the use of the prong collar.

Cheers for this. I did go to the induction night, and were told they used check chains, they did say, no flat collars, head halties harnesses or martingdales, pinch collar was not and is not mentioned in the blurb you get, or told.

I will not attend and train adjacent to them

[bedazzledx2]

It probably hasn't come up before. I would hazard a guess that it will on the next induction!

Cheers for this. I did go to the induction night, and were told they used check chains, they did say, no flat collars, head halties harnesses or martingdales, pinch collar was not and is not mentioned in the blurb you get, or told.

I will not attend and train adjacent to them

[JulesP]

Cheers for this. I did go to the induction night, and were told they used check chains, they did say, no flat collars, head halties harnesses or martingdales, pinch collar was not and is not mentioned in the blurb you get, or told.

I will not attend and train adjacent to them

I wouldn't be training with them either as I only use flat collars on my dogs.

[huski]

I wouldn't be training with them either as I only use flat collars on my dogs.

Same, what an odd rule.

[krustie22]

Cheers for this. I did go to the induction night, and were told they used check chains, they did say, no flat collars, head halties harnesses or martingdales, pinch collar was not and is not mentioned in the blurb you get, or told.

wow it is amazing the different rules different clubs come up with! the first club i went to earlier this year (just before moving to brissy) had the same "rule" that you HAD to have a choker, no flat collars! my girl was super sensitive so it was a nightmare! i ended up spending heaps of time at home desensitizing her to the noise of the check chain...now she doesnt care, although if she got a bit of a pop from it, she would shut down. while i hated that rule, it did get me to try something different. they were a very old-school club tho, where training was just an hour of paddock bashing. no focus/engagement training, no reward opportunities etc...we didnt go back.

[Red Fox]

Our grounds are a public oval. General members of the public are often strolling through on our training days.

I'm in a rural area Jules so my options are limited.

[Gayle.]

I wouldn't be training with them either as I only use flat collars on my dogs.

Same, what an odd rule.

I had a "discussion" with a trainer at my club who wanted me to use a check chain on Isaak when he was 5 months old. He said "No dog in MY class should be wearing ANYTHING other than a check chain!" and I looked at my calm, well behaved little man, who was sitting quietly beside me wearing his bright red flat collar...and a discussion ensued. Because Isaak had graduated from the puppy class, he was in beginners with a whole lot of older dogs and the trainer just didn't get it that a check chain on a 5 month old puppy was not a good idea. And he was the only dog in the class who didn't pull! He didn't need anything other than a flat collar no matter what his age.

In the end I just trained him at home, attended the next graduation day and moved on up to the next class and a different trainer.

[Bull Arab]

I wouldn't be training with them either as I only use flat collars on my dogs.

Same, what an odd rule.

I am sure I would not have made it past being told that, I would put my leash on my dogs flat collar and walk off! Logan is a pretty big area I know there are plenty of other clubs nearby. I am sure that most trainers could find one that meet their needs and trains their way regardles of what it is.

[JoeK]

I say this in respect please not take to this the wrong way, but Mr David I am hoping you not consider to train theis Mali girl in protection shes a fear biter in the making up sounds to me wrong dog yes?. This socialise and bad start in life is bull, yes you can improve behavior with the socialise and lesser the reactiveness from a scared dog, but if the dog is scared of things she dont know and react is poor temperament on the dog, good working dog dont care without good reasoning to react from past learning, good working pup should be not reacting or running away from new experience should be solid as a rock and if the react or run away they no good and need the neuter yes?

You needing for good working dog not a dog who submitting on the aversion of the prong, you needing dog who elevating aggression from aversion and make him fight harder, you not using prong or ecollar for behavior you using it to agitate aggression then stop the prong action to switch the dog off, you wanting a dog for protection that fights when offender kick him in the head, not run away from pain yes? and using the prong or ecollar to get control and the obedience is good for dogs of poor character, not for control of potential protection dogs.

No good Schutzhund club should be allowing the prong or ecollar for training cannot be using this tools Schutzhund trial and if the dog needing this tools for behavior, dog should be rejected for training is wrong temperament for the job.

Joe

[Dory the Doted One]

Prongs are also very good for people who may have impaired physical abilities and strong stubborn headed dogs.

And before you go into...they shouldn't have got that dog if they couldn't hold it. The injury occured AFTER they had got the dog. Without the prong collar the dog would have had a very reduced lifestyle and many more problems from the lack of stimulation.

[Kavik]

They did not say they wanted to trial the dog in Schutzhund or do protection? They have the dog they do, and are trying to improve its behaviour, you shouldn't go telling everyone they should reject their dog if they are having problems with it, which is how your posts come across. A Schutzhund club is more likely to be able to help them with reactive behaviour, and would have a good understanding of Malinois behaviour and drives. And you shouldn't automatically discount any tool which cannot be used in a trial situation - they can be very useful in helping to get a difficult dog under control.

You can't have any type of collar on your dog in some agility trials ;)

[Jeff Jones]

No good Schutzhund club should be allowing the prong or ecollar for training cannot be using this tools Schutzhund trial and if the dog needing this tools for behavior, dog should be rejected for training is wrong temperament for the job.

It is hard enough to find a good Schutzhund club, but by you're standard the clubs which Bernhard Flinks and Ivan Balbanov train at are no good.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Jeff Jones