Extreme Dog Breeding On Youtube

[Bjelkier]

Jed so your stating that a dog with a 'show coat' is refused to allow it's natural movement though yard play or bushes or whatever, for fear of losing it's pretty coat therefore stripping the dog of all natural behavior and socialization. After decades of this sort of treatment would the dog not loose it's natural instinct and temperament???

Alyosha I don't dispute long coats aren't good I dispute that fact a dog can't act like a dog to keep the coat

Again repeating my last statement where a fine example of breed should also Include Health, conformation and Ability to Breed purpose!!!

I do not dispute it looks good and extreme care of the animal at least to physical health and care over the coat to get a dog to look like that. But What about mental health if a dog is not allowed to run and play with natural stimulation? Don't we blast people on here whom don't walk their dogs enough?

A few genuine questions what sort of exercise do these floor length show coat dogs get? Is hours apon hours of making a dog stand on a table to get groomed good for the dog? Are there possible to many Products getting used to make them look this way? And Lastly having them look like beauty queens really good for the world of dogs as in the human world blasting people creating their small children into made up beauty queen toddlers. Is it any different for a 3-12 mth old pup to be treated in this way?

I have full coated show dogs and they are treated like any other dog. They get muddy, wet, go swimming in lakes and oceans. They are not wrapped in cotton wool and kept inside 24/7.

And none of the people I know who also have long coated show dogs treat their dogs any differently to mine.

[trinabean]

Angeluca a great many purebred dog people cringe when a dog with too much coat enters the showring. Because sometimes yes, it does mean that dog lives a restricted lifestyle for the few years it is in the ring. And sometimes that seems obvious. But conversely some owners and exhibitors are very adept at wrapping coat and tying it up out of harms way so the dog can run about like a normal dog. So do we criticise skills in care and maintenance?

Some judges will award it, and some are more astute. Maybe some of the huge immaculate coats are on dogs that don't have the same muscle tone as the slightly broken coated ones? Maybe some judges appreciate being able to see the dog's form, and consider adequate coat is adequate, without being huge. People and dogs are individual.

Oh, and edit to add - it would be a very rare sighthound in general, Afghan or otherwise, that wouldn't take to hunting something small and furry almost instantly. Instincts run deeper than we can comprehend, and in many dogs, function is lying right under the surface of the obedient pet.

Beautiful explanation in that post Alyosha. :)

[Crisovar]

Jed so your stating that a dog with a 'show coat' is refused to allow it's natural movement though yard play or bushes or whatever, for fear of losing it's pretty coat therefore stripping the dog of all natural behavior and socialization. After decades of this sort of treatment would the dog not loose it's natural instinct and temperament???

Alyosha I don't dispute long coats aren't good I dispute that fact a dog can't act like a dog to keep the coat

Again repeating my last statement where a fine example of breed should also Include Health, conformation and Ability to Breed purpose!!!

I do not dispute it looks good and extreme care of the animal at least to physical health and care over the coat to get a dog to look like that. But What about mental health if a dog is not allowed to run and play with natural stimulation? Don't we blast people on here whom don't walk their dogs enough?

A few genuine questions what sort of exercise do these floor length show coat dogs get? Is hours apon hours of making a dog stand on a table to get groomed good for the dog? Are there possible to many Products getting used to make them look this way? And Lastly having them look like beauty queens really good for the world of dogs as in the human world blasting people creating their small children into made up beauty queen toddlers. Is it any different for a 3-12 mth old pup to be treated in this way?

Show dogs can be kept in full coat and fully exercised, you simply do not allow them to run wild in the bush or through burrs, or pull each other around by the coat in play or be infested in fleas. Coats can be wrapped, top knots tied up, coats conditioned. It takes a lot of dedication on the part of the owner to keep a coated breed in show condition. It does not mean they are not allowed to be dogs.

A couple of hours on the beach and my afghan would go home to a bath and conditioning treatment, or the salt sand left in the coat would damage it just like it does our hair. Four months of beach and swimming whilst I was pregnant and unwell and her coat looked pretty tatty at the end. All my show dogs have had free exercise, swimming, running, playing at the beach, but once home you had to put in the hard yards. They could not play in the scrub where bushes would pull at the coat and burrs and grass seeds ruin it, but they played long and hard in safe areas.

Many coated breeds are used for hunting and work, but they do not keep the big coats we see on show dogs because it is damaged and certainly not maintained the way a show coat is.

[Lowenhart]

A few genuine questions what sort of exercise do these floor length show coat dogs get?

If you have an Afghan, you know they need to run. So you let them run in an open area. I've even raced my Afghans on a greyhound track and then 2 days later showed them at a Royal show. My Afghan girl was the fastest and was Runner Up Best of Breed.

Is hours apon hours of making a dog stand on a table to get groomed good for the dog? Are there possible to many Products getting used to make them look this way?

So letting them get matted and just hacking the felted bits off is good for the dog? Shampoo and conditioner is all it takes in most instances. A dog regularly groomed like this has better skin than one left to matt. Plus side, they can also run free-er without knots.

And Lastly having them look like beauty queens really good for the world of dogs as in the human world blasting people creating their small children into made up beauty queen toddlers. Is it any different for a 3-12 mth old pup to be treated in this way?

3-12 mth olds are treated like puppies. Afghan start out as quite smooth puppies, only getting fluffy around 5-6 months. A show bath for a 3 month old can take 15 minutes!

[Angeluca]

Yes I agree the dog would in some instances get a ton more attention with grooming. And if it was possible for the dog to live an unrestricted life it wouldn't be so Horrible as I may have seem to be making it (without intention). Reading over my own statement i do seem very judgmental.

However the few years of a dog life in which it is shown is it puppy -teen- young adult life so any restriction in this time frame would take out a great deal of the dogs value of life. I know a lot of dogs really enjoy it. But to restrict them even from playing in grass or mud just seems unfair. But most of all and what i was really trying to get at rather then getting stuck on coat alone is the dog to be a breed example should be seen doing or at very least have and idea /capability what it is originally bred for.

We tell people who are interested in buying a pedigree dog to go to shows, this does is not a good example in my opinion. A hunting breed for example that has been groomed to perfection then standing quietly before taken in a circle to win a ribbon or not shows nothing about the dog except false hope in to a perfectly groomed animal. It won't show the dog fetching or running like a goof, bouncing round other dogs in general the sheer energy that a lot of breeds come with. I would suggest if i were asked that people go to see the dogs perform more naturally, eg hunting breed agility, obedience or hunting. A herding breed agility obedience or herding, A toy or more so a lap dog yes obedience or a dog show but not athletic or active breeds so as the energy is more realistically displayed.

This doesn't have to take out care and grooming as long coats need regardless, So the dog will have a little shorter coat (as i am referring to extreme long coat like the body of an afghan flowing down to the floor), But will display publicly purpose and a more accurate description of breed. That is what I am getting at, seeing an afghan run is stunning Far more so then to stand with dead straight fur. The look in their faces when they leap all over the place shows it all.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Angeluca

[Alyosha]

The argument of judging function ends up going in circles though. Some breeds have functions that are no longer acceptable, ie the fighting and many of the hunting breeds. In some countries dogs are awarded function titles like coursing for hounds etc. But even then, when you get into detail, coursing is a very different activity to real hunting, and scored differently, so the arguments about how to correctly judge function rage on.

They aren't just judged on presentation in the ring, but on form. Function should follow form. So a sighthound with a huge lovely coat, but lacking the physical attributes that would enable it to perform it's function should not win. And in all honesty, they usually don't. What the standards set out is the description of the best physical form that dog breed should have, and that physical form fits with it's function. Yes certain attributes can become more or less exaggerated sometimes according to fashions or opinions but the basic forms usually stay true.

In the other current thread with links to the historical photos page you will see multiple old photos of breeds, which gives a much better impression of the breed as a whole than just one photo selected to prove someone's point. You will see that many of the breeds on there look remarkably similar. Some of the Great Danes look different to modern ones, others looks very similar. Just as we have variations in type still today I'm sure they did then, even more so. The Bull Terrier jumps out as one that has changed quite dramatically.

I don't think all purebred breeding is perfect, but I think it is far from the extremist horror movie it has been made out to be in recent years.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Alyosha

[Angeluca]

And lastly AS i appreciate everyone's opinions and example they have provided:

Breeders who can provide a dog great to form and ability, are magical honestly. Alot gets lost in the fashion in shows but there are breeders out there that do have dogs that know exactly why they were put on this earth (other then what they give their loving owner). A breeder who provides such a diverse and true example of breed, they need to be cloned and multiplied so that in 40 years time there are not another set of dogs extinct or banned or just plain ridiculed for what they've become. Breeders are what makes the dogs these days good and bad and they are they only hope for the future of purebreds.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Angeluca

[Angeluca]

The argument of judging function ends up going in circles though. Some breeds have functions that are no longer acceptable, ie the fighting and many of the hunting breeds. In some countries dogs are awarded function titles like coursing for hounds etc. But even then, when you get into detail, coursing is a very different activity to real hunting, and scored differently, so the arguments about how to correctly judge function rage on.

They aren't just judged on presentation in the ring, but on form. Function should follow form. So a sighthound with a huge lovely coat, but lacking the physical attributes that would enable it to perform it's function should not win. And in all honesty, they usually don't. What the standards set out is the description of the best physical form that dog breed should have, and that physical form fits with it's function. Yes certain attributes can become more or less exaggerated sometimes according to fashions or opinions but the basic forms usually stay true.

In the other current thread with links to the historical photos page you will see multiple old photos of breeds, which gives a much better impression of the breed as a whole than just one photo selected to prove someone's point. You will see that many of the breeds on there look remarkably similar. Some of the Great Danes look different to modern ones, others looks very similar. Just as we have variations in type still today I'm sure they did then, even more so. The Bull Terrier jumps out as one that has changed quite dramatically.

I don't think all purebred breeding is perfect, but I think it is far from the extremist horror movie it has been made out to be in recent years.

I totally understand what you are getting at in the way of original function. Yes some have completely lost their original purpose therefore can't be judge correctly, but most dogs are versatile and while they may not hunt a real fox basic tracking and retrieving and be simulated to show at least a basic instinct. Herding, guarding and tracking is easily demonstration. I did look on the historical photos page and did see some stay true/ others improved good and bad, this is why I don't dismiss this clip.

[Nekhbet]

you see what gets me about things like that is they're missing a whole other world of what you would call extreme ...

the dogs in that video are comparatively healthy compared to what some people breed

mmmm bogan breeding ... sometimes standards can be a good thing for some dogs

[Bjelkier]

you see what gets me about things like that is they're missing a whole other world of what you would call extreme ...

the dogs in that video are comparatively healthy compared to what some people breed

mmmm bogan breeding ... sometimes standards can be a good thing for some dogs

F*CK!

And some of you are having an issue with big, well groomed, show coats?

Good grief, get your priorities right

Edited March 13, 2012 by Bjelkier

[jr_inoz]

Jed so your stating that a dog with a 'show coat' is refused to allow it's natural movement though yard play or bushes or whatever, for fear of losing it's pretty coat therefore stripping the dog of all natural behavior and socialization. After decades of this sort of treatment would the dog not loose it's natural instinct and temperament???

Alyosha I don't dispute long coats aren't good I dispute that fact a dog can't act like a dog to keep the coat

Again repeating my last statement where a fine example of breed should also Include Health, conformation and Ability to Breed purpose!!!

I do not dispute it looks good and extreme care of the animal at least to physical health and care over the coat to get a dog to look like that. But What about mental health if a dog is not allowed to run and play with natural stimulation? Don't we blast people on here whom don't walk their dogs enough?

A few genuine questions what sort of exercise do these floor length show coat dogs get? Is hours apon hours of making a dog stand on a table to get groomed good for the dog? Are there possible to many Products getting used to make them look this way? And Lastly having them look like beauty queens really good for the world of dogs as in the human world blasting people creating their small children into made up beauty queen toddlers. Is it any different for a 3-12 mth old pup to be treated in this way?

Show dogs can be kept in full coat and fully exercised, you simply do not allow them to run wild in the bush or through burrs, or pull each other around by the coat in play or be infested in fleas. Coats can be wrapped, top knots tied up, coats conditioned. It takes a lot of dedication on the part of the owner to keep a coated breed in show condition. It does not mean they are not allowed to be dogs.

A couple of hours on the beach and my afghan would go home to a bath and conditioning treatment, or the salt sand left in the coat would damage it just like it does our hair. Four months of beach and swimming whilst I was pregnant and unwell and her coat looked pretty tatty at the end. All my show dogs have had free exercise, swimming, running, playing at the beach, but once home you had to put in the hard yards. They could not play in the scrub where bushes would pull at the coat and burrs and grass seeds ruin it, but they played long and hard in safe areas.

Many coated breeds are used for hunting and work, but they do not keep the big coats we see on show dogs because it is damaged and certainly not maintained the way a show coat is.

My double-coated show dog gets to play - even during show season. And she loves it.

She has certainly not lost the instinct for which she is bred.

We showed 3 days after this herding lesson. A bath and a groom and she was set to go. Coat is looked after with a high quality diet and good shampoo.

I don't use a lot of product in her coat to get her ready to show... Her being healthy, active and happy are reflected in her healthy coat.

She still gets to play as well, like any dog would.

[sandgrubber]

A better way to look at breed changes is through large collections of old photos.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Pietoro/Dog%20Breed%20Historical%20Pictures/

was recently posted. It's a treasure trove.

If you spend time with that source you will still find some breeds have changed, greatly, moving toward extreme conformation.

If you look at the breed popularity statistics, I think you will find that most breeds with really big coats have declined in registrations.

There are people who want to care for a dog who requires a lot of grooming, but they are in a minority.

Big coats, in effect, tend to make dogs less fit for serving as the family dog. . . though there are some people who enjoy grooming.

[Angeluca]

Jr_inoz your one of those many breeder whom i idolize who show the dog both in beauty and talented ability.

I don't think my priorities are wrong, Just because I didn't focus my statement on hideous breeding. My comments were directed at Show dogs and how they represent they pedigree world. The ones getting Ch, status without the ability to do the breed purpose or Obvious degree of health problems within the Show dog society.

Tho the conversation turned more focus more to the coat comment in my original post, I did mention

* very controversial eg, bulldog, toy breeds and the german shepherd.* regarding which has nothing to do with coat but again still within 'show' standard.

I believe the showdog is the face of the pedigree world and that is how we will fix the image of pedigrees. If we could get more publicly in to other competitions such as agility and obedience, and Focus a lot on those dogs who preform well in multiple categories including show/conformation (Cause we have some fantastic breed examples that already do this and some damn fine dogs that could). The over all image would increase for the better.

I was not focusing on unethical breeders and their *bogan* ways. They get far to much publicity as it is and none of it good.

[SwaY]

My comments were directed at Show dogs and how they represent they pedigree world. The ones getting Ch, status without the ability to do the breed purpose or Obvious degree of health problems within the Show dog society.

And how would you prove my breed could do the job it was bred for, which is to bring down wild Boar??

[Shaar]

I don't see how having a dog inside a lot of the time is a bad thing? My backdoor is always open yet my show dog prefers to spend most of the day inside. Yet in those 2 hours he actually spends awake during the day he does constant zoomies around the yard.

His breeds original job was as a ratter and he sure could do that... In full flight I reckon he could rival a greyhound! He's FAST!

Having a coat doesn't equate to having no life. And having a coat doesn't mean the dog is not structurally sound or being judged on glamour alone.

[Tralee]

Despite the bias, if the health problems listed are accurate then there is an ethical issue.

It then becomes a question of the dogs welfare.

I don't have a show breed, I have a rustic working breed.

So, I look at things from the other end of the discussion.

What glory is there in glamour, when 'all is vanity'?

Indeed

Aren't they pretty enough?

-- like ... 'lillies.'

Px

So what is a show breed exactly?

Well thanks Bjelkier.

I think someone wasn't paying attention to the op's vid. ;)

The Italians, from where my breed originates, do maintain a variety within the breed.

As well as several sub-types, there is a demarcation between breeding show dogs, and breeding working dogs.

They also make distinctions based on function such as reproductive champion, among others.

Here in Australia, as in others western countries, it could be argued that there are only three types of dogs, namely; show dogs, pet dogs and cross-breeds.

I appreciate that there is a healthy working dog industry as well but the argument in the video pertains to a majority of functional traits being lost to a 'glamour' diversion.

We can defend our dogs against such claims but I think the video needs to be 'appreciated' for the claims it makes.

Regards

Px

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tralee

[Angeluca]

My comments were directed at Show dogs and how they represent they pedigree world. The ones getting Ch, status without the ability to do the breed purpose or Obvious degree of health problems within the Show dog society.

And how would you prove my breed could do the job it was bred for, which is to bring down wild Boar??

Yes some have completely lost their original purpose therefore can't be judge correctly, altho pigging still exists, I would never recommend putting a dog in that sort of danger nor should anyone. Has the breeds purpose not developed over the years has it been used for anything else? And can it not demonstrate some of the skills it would have used such as tracking (if it did ) ? If none of this can be achieved, I sure your breed and others still have skills for example could they participate in obedience?

[RallyValley]

And lastly AS i appreciate everyone's opinions and example they have provided:

Breeders who can provide a dog great to form and ability, are magical honestly. Alot gets lost in the fashion in shows but there are breeders out there that do have dogs that know exactly why they were put on this earth (other then what they give their loving owner). A breeder who provides such a diverse and true example of breed, they need to be cloned and multiplied so that in 40 years time there are not another set of dogs extinct or banned or just plain ridiculed for what they've become. Breeders are what makes the dogs these days good and bad and they are they only hope for the future of purebreds.

Sometimes it IS important to have shows, here is a list of the 598 AKC Brittany Dual Champions, http://www.brittanybreed.info/DualChampions/ they are all examples of good structure and functioning field dogs.Brittany's have more Dual Champions then the rest of the sporting group combined ;) . You see some Brittany's that are solely field bred that hardly look like Brittany's anymore! So the show ring keeps type consistent and encourages better form.

You sound very quick to judge and make assertions about how 'show dogs' live. Every 'show dog' I know lives a much better life then the average pet ;) And remember for most people their show dogs are their pets, that just do a bit of showing on the side.

[Tapua]

I agree the photo representations IMO are extreeme representations of various breed types. But I feel there is a valid point regarding health and the prioitising of health issues in any breeding program. I am not, as a breeder responisible for everyone who breeds pure-bred dogs. I am however responsible for what I bring into my kennel as a potential brood bitch or stud dog and definately responsible for what goes out of my kennel.

I would rather have a foundation of healthy bitches that tick the boxes for hips/elbows and any DNA issues (if tests exist) that are not perfect IMO in type but are good mothers who whelp with no or minimal assistance,that mother well or come from a line of good mothers and produce healthy sound pups. Than really typey bitches that have poor maternal skills and questionable temperament. I can't personally imagine owning dogs that cannot mate naturally - but there are definately breeds that can't, I cant imagine breeding pups that can't breathe easily or are uncomfortable when they breathe but they certainly exist.

Showing is a totally valid hobby - but surely the dogs should not have to live a distressed existance or a shortened life expectancey just to look pretty in someones eyes. As for funcionality, dogs being used for what they are bred for - well modern life does not offer that opportunity much any more. Atleast 50 - 60% or my pups go are bought as service dogs and they MUST have health, intelligence and mental stability as a priority. People who buy companion dogs are entited to healthy puppies and mentally stable dogs - as a breeder I do see that as my responisbility.

My point - the well being of the dog for the dog's sake is important - yes I will select attractive dogs if physical well-being of the pups are not going to be compromised but equally important IMO are the temperament and intelligence of the pups - something that cannot be assessed by a photo or a breed judge.

Being a dog breeder is becoming a complicated skill where the holistic approach to breeding means having a broader perspectice than breeding a good show dog.

[Keshwar]

Afghans doing as close to what they were bred for as it is possible to get. :)

This was my young - 11 mth old puppy chasing the lure. When he is not doing this he is also a show dog.

My Girl Chloe enjoying a day at the races. Also a show dog.