Rspca Criticised Over Claims Test To Decide Fate Of Dogs Is Misused

[stellnme]

So true Padraic. My local pound charges $49 for the first impounding and $18 a day for "sustenance." Put together a few days in a pound and that is serious money for someone who can't afford an extra bill in their lives.

[Inevitablue]

Negative points for ball obsession..... harsh.

[megan_]

I am not saying rescue dogs are bad dogs that deserve to die. Of course a lot of dogs land up in pounds for reasons that have nothing to do with the dog themselves. My point was about the misuse of statistics - people reading more into them than they actually mean. Because 50% of dogs at a certain pound are put down you can't say that "this means they'd put down 50% of the pet dog population".

I am not defending their temp test - comatose dogs would pass if they were lucky - my initial response was re: the lawyer that complained that fear biters would fail the test. I think fear biters would fail most temp tests for a pound? Would most rescuers rehome a fear aggressive dog to a member of the public (not an experienced member of their group) even after rehab and the dog didn't react aggressively in theirhome environment? I have a fear aggressive dog that hasn't had an incident in ages because I manage her behaviour very well, if I do say so myself. She wouldn't, however, be a rehoming prospect to anyone but an experienced person who knew how to manage fear aggression. I know a lot of dog people and there are only 1 or 2 that I would ever trust her with.

People not being able to afford the fees to get their dogs out of pounds happens regardless of temp test - a holistic approach is needed. It needs to be balanced against the fact that there are many repeat offenders who let their dogs wander and harrass other people and dogs.

[minimax]

It sounds like most puppies would fail purely for being excitable and mouthy!

[WoofnHoof]

I'd be surprised if any huskies would pass given their prey drive'.

[darlingdog]

From what I've been told by rescue groups (usually breed specific) that have begged to take dogs on - they just simply won't release a dog that has failed the above linked (bullshit) temperament test to ANYONE, not just the general public. So even though a dog can fail for some very basic training issues (or even non training issues - the dog can gain 40 points just by having a few high toy drive!) that could be worked on in a foster care environment, it is not given that opportunity.

Look up the Facebook group 'Justice4Max'. He was adog that had originally come from a rescue group and was a fantastic dog. Ended up in RSPCA Rutherford. Owner asked for a few extra days to get the money together to release him, and Dog Rescue Newcastle also explicitly told them they would take him once his time was up. They killed him.

Even breeders here of sight hounds and terriers would be denied access to their own dogs if they ended up in the shelter as the prey drive would see them fail the test and therefore not released to anyone.

This is our experience as a breed rescue, dogs being failed on having high energy, drive and wanting to chase cats for god's sake ....but not in ALL RSPCA shelters...it does depend on the particular humans running each shelter as to whether or not a particular dog will be passed on to rescue, some of the shelters try hard to work with rescue in fact our QLD shelter has a rescue co-ordinator.

[Little Gifts]

When I volunteered with the RSPCAs biggest Queensland shelter dogs were black tagged (ie identified as going to be pts) the minute they were sorted from their surrender cages and put into pens. That included puppies, small fluffy dogs, cats and kittens. I don't know what criteria was used other than it seemed to be based on age, health and capacity to house the animals. They certainly weren't behavioured assessed at that point. In the front door, a decision was made and their fate was sealed all in a matter of a morning. I saw this many times with my own eyes. I even took a 3 week pup with a broken leg home to foster because I was told by staff if I didn't take it it would just be pts. She ended up being what appeared to be a well bred SBT and was rehomed to someone I knew and grew to be the most obedient and beautiful natured dog.

I would hope things have changed over the last couple of years regarding how dogs are assessed.

[eyeopener]

IMHO 1 off temperament testing is of no use what so ever especially in the surrounds n situations these dogs are often tested in. I used to retrain & rehabilitate large breed dogs(mainly rotties n shepherds)that had failed initial temp testing for a rescue group & some should never have failed. We also came across many that had passed who should not have also. There is just too much to take in on a 1 off test in a environment & I think it should be broken down into several stages over a couple of days n more than 1 environment to actually mean anything what so ever.

But that said i do think many dogs go through other rescues to be re-homed that maybe should not have ever got passed the pound etc.

[koalathebear]

Hmm, both of my dogs went ok overall but Elbie would have been an instant fail because it says: "Comes to front - GROWL, SNARL OR BARE TEETH" when a stranger approaches cage. He would be fine if approached in a crate but when strangers come to our front gate, he will sometimes growl/snarl/bare teeth - although by the time stranger gets in backyard, he is wriggling for pats :p

Also, my dogs frequently hackle when meeting new dogs but they don't do much more than that but the 'hackle' action is an instant 10 points.

[Aphra]

To my mind there is also a bit of a difference between a growl and snarling or baring teeth. I don't object to a dog having a growl when it is scared or uncertain, I'd rather a dog tell you its uncomfortable and give you a warning rather than go straight to snarling and teeth. So lumping those three together is a bit unfair.

And as someone upstream noted, by putting the undesirable behaviours last in capitals it makes it psychologically easier to give the dog a negative score than a positive one. It's really easy to just skim over the positive behaviours and not notice the detail.

I don't think I'd trust any of my own dogs not to take after pocket pets, even my cattle dog who can be trusted with kittens. The problem with temperament tests like this is that they are pass/fail as opposed to informative, but then, I suppose the point of them is to be able to justify killing dogs, in which case it's probably a really useful test.

Hmm, both of my dogs went ok overall but Elbie would have been an instant fail because it says: "Comes to front - GROWL, SNARL OR BARE TEETH" when a stranger approaches cage. He would be fine if approached in a crate but when strangers come to our front gate, he will sometimes growl/snarl/bare teeth - although by the time stranger gets in backyard, he is wriggling for pats :p

Also, my dogs frequently hackle when meeting new dogs but they don't do much more than that but the 'hackle' action is an instant 10 points.

[minimax]

Hmm, both of my dogs went ok overall but Elbie would have been an instant fail because it says: "Comes to front - GROWL, SNARL OR BARE TEETH" when a stranger approaches cage. He would be fine if approached in a crate but when strangers come to our front gate, he will sometimes growl/snarl/bare teeth - although by the time stranger gets in backyard, he is wriggling for pats :p

Also, my dogs frequently hackle when meeting new dogs but they don't do much more than that but the 'hackle' action is an instant 10 points.

Basically they fail a dog for showing dog-like behaviour

[Kavik]

There are some breeds which are bred to have a lot of prey drive, and having ball drive is not a bad thing Can be very useful for training, or even just exercising them and having fun.

[koalathebear]

I thought that the toy one was interesting. The correct answer was: "Retrieves and returns toy - follow toy, sniff and leave toy" and the dog is marked down for: "Retrieves and runs away - will allow you to catch and take toy".

My dog Hoover has zero resource guarding in him and is not possessive about toys at all but if you give him a toy, his favourite thing is to grab it and run to his crate/mat to play with it. He won't care if you take away from him, but he loves to make a pile of toys :D In

, he grabs all the toys and takes them back to the kitchen crate.

Also, Hoover sometimes likes to chase small dogs - he does nothing to them - just chases them - for which he would have lost 20 points. But if you see him here with our latest foster puppy (who is tiny), he is totally fine with small dogs and would not hurt them.

Edited October 11, 2012 by koalathebear

[minimax]

I thought that the toy one was interesting. The correct answer was: "Retrieves and returns toy - follow toy, sniff and leave toy" and the dog is marked down for: "Retrieves and runs away - will allow you to catch and take toy".

Max's favourite game is to chase the ball once, but not bring it back, she makes me chase her to get it back. I guess my 1 year old pug would fail!

[koalathebear]

Max's favourite game is to chase the ball once, but not bring it back, she makes me chase her to get it back. I guess my 1 year old pug would fail!

Heh she would just be marked down. That's not one of the 'instant fails'. Instant fails are "growls, snarls OR bares teeth" when approached in the pen which is so bizarre to me because growling can be such a normal response for a dog that isn't necessarily 'bad'

Also, instant fail during vet check or play handling if: "GROWL, SNARL, BARE TEETH, BITE" - no caveat for "except if dog is injured and in pain"

Also an instant fail if when meeting a strange dog: "SNAP, SNARL, GROWL, LUNGE OR BITE"

Lots of dogs growl when meeting strange dogs - especially on leash ...

Edited October 11, 2012 by koalathebear

[Dame Aussie]

I agree the test is crap, but I think we have to keep in mind that they are covering themselves somewhat also.

It's fine to say growling is normal....but just say you adopt a dog from the pound/shelter which growled in it's assessment. They decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and adopt it out to you. Then just say it bites or attacks you or someone else in the family. You'd be pretty p*ssed they adopted it out.

Yes dogs aren't completely predictable, that's obvious, but the shelters are responsible for everything they adopt out.

This is what they are trying to prevent, so whilst I agree it needs to be changed, I can see why they have to be VERY careful with what they adopt out.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Aussie3

[koalathebear]

I agree the test is crap, but I think wer have to keep in mind that they are covering themselves somewhat also.

It's fine to say growling is normal....but just say you adopt a dog from the pound/shelter which growled in it's assessment. They decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and adopt it out to you. Then just say it bites or attacks you or someone else in the family. You'd be pretty p*ssed they adopted it out.

Yes dogs aren't completely predictable, that's obvious, but the shelters are responsible for everything they adopt out.

This is what they are trying to prevent, so whilst I agree it needs to be changed, I can see why they have to be VERY careful with what they adopt out.

I agree and I am super careful with our foster dogs and assessing their behaviours in different circumstances etc but the test is quite inflexible and some of the instant fails (with no discretion) are a little bit concerning. I'm intrigued that any dog passes, especially in a pound environment.

I am not saying my dogs are perfect, but Hoover in particular is pretty bomb-proof and placid but even he will growl at strange dogs/strangers sometimes if they approach the house/approach him if he's on leash.

Edited October 11, 2012 by koalathebear

[Dame Aussie]

I agree the test is crap, but I think wer have to keep in mind that they are covering themselves somewhat also.

It's fine to say growling is normal....but just say you adopt a dog from the pound/shelter which growled in it's assessment. They decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and adopt it out to you. Then just say it bites or attacks you or someone else in the family. You'd be pretty p*ssed they adopted it out.

Yes dogs aren't completely predictable, that's obvious, but the shelters are responsible for everything they adopt out.

This is what they are trying to prevent, so whilst I agree it needs to be changed, I can see why they have to be VERY careful with what they adopt out.

I agree and I am super careful with our foster dogs and assessing their behaviours in different circumstances etc but the test is quite inflexible and some of the instant fails (with no discretion) are a little bit concerning. I am not saying my dogs are perfect, but Hoover in particular is pretty bomb-proof and placid but even he will growl at strange dogs/strangers sometimes if they approach the house/approach him if he's on leash.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. I just think that is the reason why they have such a stringent test.

[nawnim]

I agree the test is crap, but I think we have to keep in mind that they are covering themselves somewhat also.

It's fine to say growling is normal....but just say you adopt a dog from the pound/shelter which growled in it's assessment. They decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and adopt it out to you. Then just say it bites or attacks you or someone else in the family. You'd be pretty p*ssed they adopted it out.

Yes dogs aren't completely predictable, that's obvious, but the shelters are responsible for everything they adopt out.

This is what they are trying to prevent, so whilst I agree it needs to be changed, I can see why they have to be VERY careful with what they adopt out.

Just for the record and I know it is a different test but my dog that I mentioned in an earlier post was classified as an orange dog and before I was allowed to adopt it was explained exactly what it meant and I had to sign an indemnity form absolving the RSPCA of any responsibility.

[Dame Aussie]

I agree the test is crap, but I think we have to keep in mind that they are covering themselves somewhat also.

It's fine to say growling is normal....but just say you adopt a dog from the pound/shelter which growled in it's assessment. They decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and adopt it out to you. Then just say it bites or attacks you or someone else in the family. You'd be pretty p*ssed they adopted it out.

Yes dogs aren't completely predictable, that's obvious, but the shelters are responsible for everything they adopt out.

This is what they are trying to prevent, so whilst I agree it needs to be changed, I can see why they have to be VERY careful with what they adopt out.

Just for the record and I know it is a different test but my dog that I mentioned in an earlier post was classified as an orange dog and before I was allowed to adopt it was explained exactly what it meant and I had to sign an indemnity form absolving the RSPCA of any responsibility.

That's interesting, I haven't seen that done before. It's good you were made aware right from the start and if it helps more dogs get homes then that's fantastic.