Guidedog Pts...

[Dame Aussie]

I thought the point was though that they are afraid/distressed therefore they are suffering - rather than whether they understand the concept of death? Of course they don't think like humans or have the same understanding of what death means but they are sentient beings who are capable of picking up on the distress of others around them - either their owners or other animals.

I have had 3 dogs PTS in my lifetime, all 3 were very peaceful with no visible fretting from the dog.

I have also worked at a large pound and I have never seen a dog visibly distressed before being PTS.

[Are You Serious Jo]

But some dogs get distressed when they get put under for desexing or getting their needles. Some dogs don't get distressed before being PTS. I know because I've held them. If we said we can never subject dogs to any stress then there goes any veterinary treatment for some and some owners could never leave their dog alone. The dog physically being PTS is really a minor point in all this, so I'd like to correct some of the misconceptions being posted. I don't know the full story so I can't say whether this dog could go on to be a guide for another person. But it's silly to keep claiming it's cruel.

[Sheridan]

But some dogs get distressed when they get put under for desexing or getting their needles. Some dogs don't get distressed before being PTS. I know because I've held them. If we said we can never subject dogs to any stress then there goes any veterinary treatment for some and some owners could never leave their dog alone. The dog physically being PTS is really a minor point in all this, so I'd like to correct some of the misconceptions being posted. I don't know the full story so I can't say whether this dog could go on to be a guide for another person. But it's silly to keep claiming it's cruel.

Waste rather than cruelty.

[Are You Serious Jo]

If the dog could be reassigned then it does seem like a waste.

[Rosetta]

I thought the point was though that they are afraid/distressed therefore they are suffering - rather than whether they understand the concept of death? Of course they don't think like humans or have the same understanding of what death means but they are sentient beings who are capable of picking up on the distress of others around them - either their owners or other animals.

I have had 3 dogs PTS in my lifetime, all 3 were very peaceful with no visible fretting from the dog.

I have also worked at a large pound and I have never seen a dog visibly distressed before being PTS.

I don't doubt yours and others experiences but the fact is I have seen footage of dogs in pounds cowering and trembling before being led into "the room" for PTS - so it does happen. It obviously depends on the environment and the people carrying out the procedure - I am pleased to hear your pound does things compassionately.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Rosetta

[Are You Serious Jo]

If the staff are rough and there are lots of things the dogs aren't sure of it can be stressful for the dogs, but that is environmental, nothing to do with the impending PTS.

[Guest donatella]

Dogs pts with their owners you'd assume to be more relaxed as they are with their owner and feel safest with this person.

I can assure you if a stranger took my healthy dogs to the back room for their injection they would be stressed. If I did it they'd be wondering what was up, but still feel safe in my presence.

[megan_]

Dogs pts with their owners you'd assume to be more relaxed as they are with their owner and feel safest with this person.

I can assure you if a stranger took my healthy dogs to the back room for their injection they would be stressed. If I did it they'd be wondering what was up, but still feel safe in my presence.

But if a stranger in a strange place dragged your dogs to a room full of toys and food they'd be cowering when lead there too. It isn't the fact that they are going to the PTS room that is disturbing them, it is the fact that they are being led their by a stranger.

[Guest donatella]

One of mine would be like that the other is a total person whore and just wants to be with people, she would follow without enticing. It would depend on the dogs personality I guess.

[Bjelkier]

I thought the point was though that they are afraid/distressed therefore they are suffering - rather than whether they understand the concept of death? Of course they don't think like humans or have the same understanding of what death means but they are sentient beings who are capable of picking up on the distress of others around them - either their owners or other animals.

I have had 3 dogs PTS in my lifetime, all 3 were very peaceful with no visible fretting from the dog.

I have also worked at a large pound and I have never seen a dog visibly distressed before being PTS.

I wish I could say the same for mine dogs

My eldest Samoyed screamed when they gave him the injection and continued screaming until his heart stopped. He had been in for surgery before, had needles and never had an issue.

It absolutely broke my heart.

[Rosetta]

I thought the point was though that they are afraid/distressed therefore they are suffering - rather than whether they understand the concept of death? Of course they don't think like humans or have the same understanding of what death means but they are sentient beings who are capable of picking up on the distress of others around them - either their owners or other animals.

I have had 3 dogs PTS in my lifetime, all 3 were very peaceful with no visible fretting from the dog.

I have also worked at a large pound and I have never seen a dog visibly distressed before being PTS.

I wish I could say the same for mine dogs

My eldest Samoyed screamed when they gave him the injection and continued screaming until his heart stopped. He had been in for surgery before, had needles and never had an issue.

It absolutely broke my heart.

I am very sorry this happened - it is heartbreaking

[Dame Aussie]

I thought the point was though that they are afraid/distressed therefore they are suffering - rather than whether they understand the concept of death? Of course they don't think like humans or have the same understanding of what death means but they are sentient beings who are capable of picking up on the distress of others around them - either their owners or other animals.

I have had 3 dogs PTS in my lifetime, all 3 were very peaceful with no visible fretting from the dog.

I have also worked at a large pound and I have never seen a dog visibly distressed before being PTS.

I wish I could say the same for mine dogs

My eldest Samoyed screamed when they gave him the injection and continued screaming until his heart stopped. He had been in for surgery before, had needles and never had an issue.

It absolutely broke my heart.

Oh no, thats horrible I'm so sorry it happened like that Bjelkier

[Guest donatella]

Proof exactly that it's not always the dream ending we play it out to be.

Bjelker, that is so upsetting, that must have taken a lot to move on from

[mantis]

I thought the point was though that they are afraid/distressed therefore they are suffering - rather than whether they understand the concept of death? Of course they don't think like humans or have the same understanding of what death means but they are sentient beings who are capable of picking up on the distress of others around them - either their owners or other animals.

I have had 3 dogs PTS in my lifetime, all 3 were very peaceful with no visible fretting from the dog.

I have also worked at a large pound and I have never seen a dog visibly distressed before being PTS.

I don't doubt yours and others experiences but the fact is I have seen footage of dogs in pounds cowering and trembling before being led into "the room" for PTS - so it does happen. It obviously depends on the environment and the people carrying out the procedure - I am pleased to hear your pound does things compassionately.

Most dogs cower & are trembling in a pound, even if they aren't being PTS. It is a strange environment & without their owners.

I paid an extra $100 when I had Kenny PTS, so he would be in his home & lying on my bed, so he wouldn't get distressed. His tail was wagging the whole time, so either he knew that I was doing it for his own good, or he didn't know what was happening.

[Cosmolo]

I have seen alot of animals euthanased. Every one done in a shelter where i worked was a kind, gentle and peaceful process. Some of the dogs passed with their favourite toy in their mouth wagging their tail. (It was a low kill shelter- medical issues were the main reason for euthanasia)

I then had to take a dog (not my own, i offered to take him for someone else) to a private vet clinic for euthanasia and it was one of the most awful experiences of my life. The vet and vet nurse were cold, they ran out of sedation so didn't give the dog enough and he endured 20 minutes of extreme anxiety before they finally pts. Then the vet turned to me and said "I assumed you'd seen all that before". I waited till i walked out and cried the whole way home. Up until then i strongly believed that euthanasia was peaceful and low stress. Now i know it depends on who is doing it.

[PuddleDuck]

Bjelkier that would have been awful

One of our dogs, a JRTx, we got from renbury farm shelter in 2000. She was abused before she was dumped. She had to be dragged out of the kennel and pee'd as they pulled her out because she was so terrified. She spent many a long hour in my arms because she was too scared to walk around on her own. But overall, in her (very) simple little brain, she's happy.

Regardless of what was coming next, rusty exhibited the behaviour that some posters are describing to prove dogs are scared before being PTS. It would have made no difference why they took her out of the kennel, she could have been taken to a room full of roast chickens and she still would have freaked.

While some dogs do panic before the procedure, I think

it is unfair to continually push the point that it is cruel and they are scared, because its a bloody hard decision as it is and I think by talking about how hard it is for the dog you may inadvertently influence some people to put off PTS where it is needed, and that is far more cruel on the dog.

[WreckitWhippet]

Proof exactly that it's not always the dream ending we play it out to be.

Bjelker, that is so upsetting, that must have taken a lot to move on from

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down.

Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death.

[minimax]

Proof exactly that it's not always the dream ending we play it out to be.

Bjelker, that is so upsetting, that must have taken a lot to move on from

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down.

Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death.

My dog screams like she's being murdered when I clip her nails. If doesn't hurt her, she's not dying, and I'm there holding her. There is no impending death, she's just a drama queen.

[skelp2]

BTW, there is NO evidence that dogs understand the concept of death, they don't have the requisite cognitive capacities.

The concept of their own imminent death or that of an owner or another dog perhaps?

I would suspect that there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that dogs understand when an owner, or another animal that they live with, is dying or has died. Dogs do grieve, do they not?

As with any mammal in particular, they also understand when their own life is in danger and react accordingly, using the flight or fight response.

In regards to this particular situation, it is a shame that the son chose to follow his mother's wishes. People who know they are dying do not always make rational decisions, just as people who are not dying also can make stupid decisions. In my opinion, this woman's decision was not entirely different to people who choose to have a fairly young and healthy dog put down for other nefarious reasons.

Yes - ask any person involved in killing dogs in pounds and shelters. I suspect they know exactly what is about to happen to them. The airy fairy idea that this dog did not "suffer" in any way before being killed is just denial of the reality IMO.

Some may be fearful of the smells and strange people but they really don't have a clue about death. I have been on both sides, I have held animals as they were PTS when I was doing vet nursing and I also am a cognitive researcher who has done research with dogs in order to determine what they are capable of doing and understanding. I can tell you right now there are no papers that demonstrate dogs understand death, but plenty that provide evidence they don't. Your anecdotes are just that, your own experience coloured by your emotions and it is not evidence. Trust me, if dogs could be shown to demonstrate the cognitive capabilities to understand death there's be a Nature paper and you couldn't escape the press, it would be huge news. We think non-human apes might have a limited ability to think into the future but dogs can't. Do some feel a bit of fear because of the vet clinic and someone holding their leg, sure, but it's fantasy to believe they know they are going to die. So let's not scare people with misinformation.

Oh, I see, you know exactly what every dog is thinking, or not thinking.

Funnily enough yes, you do your experiments the right way you can confidently extrapolate your findings to the species as a whole :laugh: Can you post a linky to your work disputing the current literature? Where did you publish :D

So you experiment on dogs? Hmmm, interesting.

One benefit of age is that you come to understand that not all things on this earth can or will be explained by 'science'.

I will give you a little challenge. How, scientifically of course, would you explain why a dog would exhibit unusual behaviour (pacing, panting, obviously stressed) at the same time as it's owner dies unexpectantly, and whilst that owner is not present ie: at another location?

[Rosetta]

I have seen alot of animals euthanased. Every one done in a shelter where i worked was a kind, gentle and peaceful process. Some of the dogs passed with their favourite toy in their mouth wagging their tail. (It was a low kill shelter- medical issues were the main reason for euthanasia)

I then had to take a dog (not my own, i offered to take him for someone else) to a private vet clinic for euthanasia and it was one of the most awful experiences of my life. The vet and vet nurse were cold, they ran out of sedation so didn't give the dog enough and he endured 20 minutes of extreme anxiety before they finally pts. Then the vet turned to me and said "I assumed you'd seen all that before". I waited till i walked out and cried the whole way home. Up until then i strongly believed that euthanasia was peaceful and low stress. Now i know it depends on who is doing it.

Cosmolo I think that is the absolute crux of it and I think it helps for people to share stories like yours so those faced with that awful situation can ask plenty of questions up front to ensure it is done as compassionately as possible.